Berliner Weiße recipe & 2 boil process critique

[DeanRIowa]

After some research, there appears to be many ways to create a Berliner Weiße. I am looking for critiques of the recipe and process that I have thought about using. Any hints would be great.


5 gallon batch
Ingredients:

• 3.5 lbs German Pilsner Malt(Weyermen)
• 3.5 lbs German Wheat malt(Weyermen)
• 0.5 lbs rice hulls
• 0.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfruh hops
• 2 - 4 oz dried hibiscus
• 1 pkt Lactobacillus, White Labs WLP677
• 1 pkt Safale US-05

Process:

• BIAB - Mash - 60 minutes?
• Boil 60 minutes, NO Hops
• Cool to 110
• Transfer to primary - no aeration
• Pitch WLP677 Lactobacillus Delbrueckii
• Add CO2 to fermentor & airlock
• Put heating pad around & seed warmer under primary
• Wait 2 - 3 days
• Check acid level as expected, ph test strips
• Bring to boil 60 minutes
• Add hops, 60 minutes
• Add Hibiscus, 10 minutes
• Cool to 70
• Transfer to primary - aerate
• Pitch ale yeast,dry US-05
• Ferment as normal ale at 62
• Bottle to 3 volumes - bottle should handle it

How long should I do the mash, 60 or 90 minutes?
Is my process going to work?
Does the beer acid level mellow after fermentation, as I do not want to overdo it?
Does this need to bottle age beyond carbonation, since the second boil probably killed the lacto?


Thanks,
Dean

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would stay far away from WLP677.
White Labs bacteria frequently has yeast contamination.
Pick some source of L. plantarum. Works well between 70-100F so you don't really need a heating pad. You won't regret it.

For a kettle sour, it's best to sour in the kettle. 1. You avoid soaking your fermenter and transfer tubing in bacteria, and 2. You avoid picking up contamination in the transfer.

Be aware pH strips are highly unreliable, almost worthless. I'd recommend investing in a decent pH meter at some point. It's also useful for water chemistry.

2 hours of boiling is a little excessive. I'd cut total boiling time to an hour or less.

60 minute mash is fine. You can do 90 if you want it more dry, but that shouldn't be necessary.
The acidity won't really "mellow" in my experience.
The bottles should not require any additional aging.

Cheers

 

[DeanRIowa]

I would stay far away from WLP677.
White Labs bacteria frequently has yeast contamination.
Pick some source of L. plantarum. Works well between 70-100F so you don't really need a heating pad. You won't regret it.

For a kettle sour, it's best to sour in the kettle. 1. You avoid soaking your fermenter and transfer tubing in bacteria, and 2. You avoid picking up contamination in the transfer.

Be aware pH strips are highly unreliable, almost worthless. I'd recommend investing in a decent pH meter at some point. It's also useful for water chemistry.

2 hours of boiling is a little excessive. I'd cut total boiling time to an hour or less.

60 minute mash is fine. You can do 90 if you want it more dry, but that shouldn't be necessary.
The acidity won't really "mellow" in my experience.
The bottles should not require any additional aging.

Cheers

RPh_Guy, thank you for your response.

• I made some process adjustments below.
• I think I will look into using the "L. plantarum", I see some tablets for sale on Amazon.
• I am going to change a boil time.
• I will extend my mash time.
• My fermenter is a glass carboy, and I plan to use tubing only moving the mash to glass carboy before pitching of the bacteria, and then dumping the post sour directly into pot to reboil, so tubing should not be at risk. I figure a good multiple cleaning & sanitizing of the pot and carboy ought to do it.

New process adjusted:

• Boil water
• Cool to Mash temps
• BIAB - Mash - 90 minutes
• Boil 60 minutes, NO Hops
• Cool to 80
• Transfer to primary - no aeration
• Pitch WLP677 Lactobacillus Delbrueckii
• Pitch L. plantarum
• Add CO2 to fermentor(dry ice)
• Add airlock
• Put heating pad around & seed warmer under primary
• Wait 2 - 3 days
• Check acid level, ph test strips, taste test
• Bring to boil 60 minutes
• Add hops, @ 60 minutes
• Add Hibiscus, @ 10 minutes
• Cool to 70
• Transfer to primary - aerate
• Pitch ale yeast,dry US-05
• Ferment as normal ale at 62
• Bottle to 3 volumes - bottle should handle it

I understand acid level will be the same, but will the boiling change the L. plantarum taste profile?

Any other thoughts after adjustments?

thank you,
Dean

 

[RPh_Guy]

• Boil water

• Cool to Mash temps

• BIAB - Mash - 90 minutes

• Boil 60 minutes, NO Hops

Boiling the water before the mash won't accomplish anything.
You should mash, and then boil, and then chill and sour.
This reduces risk of contamination.

Check acid level, ph test strips, taste test

That's fine to taste test but just keep in mind you won't really be able to taste the acidity very below because the wort is still sweet at that point.

I understand acid level will be the same, but will the boiling change the L. plantarum taste profile?

Well, I use a probiotic blend of bacteria for souring. Swanson's is good though; hard to beat the price and it works really well.
My kettle sours are generally clean, with only light notes of berries, lemon, melon, and peach (US-05 yeast). My no-boil berliner had a little more of a funky flair to it, but it faded after a couple weeks in the bottle.
Lacto is generally pretty clean and just used for fast souring. If you want more character, pick more interesting yeast.

Any other thoughts after adjustments?

There are different opinions on this but using CO2 to purge is completely unnecessary. Feel free to skip that step.

You could ferment a little warmer if you want. I would definitely ramp it up to make sure it fully attenuates. The high acidity tends to slow down fermentation and US-05 stays clean at higher temperature.

 

[DeanRIowa]

Well, I use a probiotic blend of bacteria for souring. Swanson's is good though; hard to beat the price and it works really well.
My kettle sours are generally clean, with only light notes of berries, lemon, melon, and peach (US-05 yeast). My no-boil berliner had a little more of a funky flair to it, but it faded after a couple weeks in the bottle.
Lacto is generally pretty clean and just used for fast souring. If you want more character, pick more interesting yeast.

What probiotic blend of bacteria do you use by chance?
How do you do a kettle sour as it might be easier than racking to my carboy for 2 to 3 days?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Besides what I mentioned, you're on the right track

Standard kettle sour process:
Consider making a buffered Lacto starter to speed up souring.
Consider making a yeast starter or increased pitching rate.

Mash as normal.
Boil 15 min, no hops.
Chill to 98F.
Chill a sample to measure s.g.
[If you have a pH meter, pre-acidify wort to 4.0-4.5.]
Pitch Lacto culture of L. plantarum (preferred).
Seal kettle as well as reasonably possible.
[If you have a pH meter, monitor pH.]
Should take around 24-72 hours to sour.
Boil 45 mins, adding hops or anything else as desired.
Chill and transfer to carboy as normal.
Aerate and pitch yeast as normal.

---
Here's what I use:
Renew Life Ultimate Flora.

Anything with L. plantarum is good. It produces a nice level of clean sourness quickly over a large temperature range. Plus it's cheap!

Store Lacto in the fridge to maintain viability. If you do it will last a long time.

---
More reading:
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

Cheers

 

[DeanRIowa]

Rph_guy that is some great information and url links, thank you.

How do you pre-acidify wort? Just add Phosphoric Acid(10%), little by little, mix and test? How much do you add(little by little)?

Dean

 

[RPh_Guy]

How do you pre-acidify wort?

I add Lactic acid, stir, and test pH.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring#How_to_Pre-Acidify
"Using 1 mL of 88% lactic acid per .1 shift in pH for 5 gallons of wort is a good starting measurement."
This works in my experience.

I generally wouldn't recommend this unless you have a pH meter.

 

[DeanRIowa]

After all of the advice from Rph_guy I have settled on the following process:

• Heat to Mash temps
• BIAB - Mash - 60 minutes, 90 minutes drier
• Boil 15 minutes, NO Hops
• Cool to 98
• Leave in boil pot
• pre-acidify wort to 4.5, phosphoric acid 1 mL at a time then test pH
• Transfer to primary - no aeration
• Pitch L. plantarum,
• Add CO2 to fermentor(dry ice)
• Seal pot well
• Put heating pad around & seed warmer under pot
• Wait 1 - 3 days
• Check acid level, ph meter test, ph target 3.3-3.7
• Bring to boil 45 minutes
• Add hops, @ 45 minutes
• Cool to 70
• Transfer to primary - aerate
• Pitch ale yeast,dry US-05
• Ferment as normal ale at 62 or higher
• Bottle to 3 volumes

Thanks again for everything.

Dean

 

[cactusgarrett]

Solid process as conveyed by rPh - mainly because it's exactly the one i use, too.

No need to transfer to primary after the initial 15min boil and cooling (before souring). You're just going to transfer it back to your kettle to do the 45min boil anyway. If you can, just leave it in the kettle after chilling and during the souring process. You can just saran wrap the lid to the kettle. There's a reason it's called kettle souring . Transferring back & forth just increases the chances for picking up something unknown/unwanted.

 

[DeanRIowa]

No need to transfer to primary after the initial 15min boil and cooling (before souring).

Good point, I forgot to remove that initial transfer to primary from my process list.

Thank you,
Dean

 

[SanPancho]

Theres no need to boil after mash. A good 10 or 15 minute hold hold between 170-180f is fine for pasteurization. Sour in your kettle, less work and less chance of infection.

Swanson plantarum caps work well, as do goodbelly shots, which actually work alot faster in my experience. Although you can reyhdrate the pills, the liquid is still faster. All of the Platarum bugs are typically s fine in 75-85f range.

Dry ice into kettle is good idea for both chilling and getting protective co2 blanket. Just add it in small chunks to make sure it doesn’t roil the hell out of your kettle. Seal kettle well so you dont get any acetic production from the bugs due to oxygen.

An hour boil after souring is good. You have light malts here with sms that needs to be driven off. I wouldnt skimp on the boil. Better safe than sorry. Give a good hard boil to hot break then you can lower to roiling simmer/boil.

Good aeration of wort, even for dry yeast. Good dose of nutrients. Clean ale yeast.

Youre set to go.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Theres no need to boil after mash.

Pre-sour boiling is generally recommended when kettle souring. The reasons why are explained in detail in the links I provided above (Dr. Miller's blog and MTF wiki).
I believe pre-acidification may be adequate protection against wild microbes without pre-boiling but I don't think there's enough evidence to recommend this process.

65-100°F is acceptable for L. plantarum.

Any acetic acid will be removed by the post-sour boil.

Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

Being impartial, how is his searching any different than your reference?

For what it's worth, the Brulosophy guys examined this variable, and in one of the few cases with their experiments, there was a significant result, and the subsequent flavor preferences leaned towards the boil method (but just barely).

For those interested.

 

[SanPancho]

Being impartial, how is his searching any different than your reference?

For what it's worth, the Brulosophy guys examined this variable, and in one of the few cases with their experiments, there was a significant result, and the subsequent flavor preferences leaned towards the boil method (but just barely).

For those interested.

well, for one its relying on **** you find on the internet vs getting the info from someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about. and more to the point of what i think you're trying to get at- its a question of experience vs "booK' knowledge. i'll take the word of the guy with the experience vs the guy who quotes his google hits.

to wit- your local charles schwab rep wants to advise you on how to invest your nest egg. he took some classes. probably a company training course. sounds official. but on the flight home you got bumped to first class and had a 3 hour chat with bill gates/warren buffet/mark cuban/etc. whose advice are you gonna follow? there is not an objective "right" answer to that question. but i think its safe to say what most people would do.

personally, i think awards and contests are vanity fairs. but if you notice, i purposely described it as award winning as that is what is generally seen (among homebrewers) as a sign of quality and acceptance. now i'll give you one more reference. i dont have the specific details as its been quite a few years, but theres also the brewery in berlin that had the best berliner ive ever tasted. i brought home a case like a weirdo (750ml bottles, flip tops, heavy as hell and $$$ to ship) and cracked it open for a group made up of local brewers and beer industry. they only boil once. on purpose. the american reactions? amazing. wow. holy crap. etc. so if that brewery is doing something CONTRARY to what Mr GoogleSays is claiming to be the the definitive "correct" way to do it, then i guess you have a dilemma. street knowledge vs book knowledge.

i'll go with the folks who do it for a living, who literally make money doing it. thats just me.

and for the OP- he gets to choose on his own source, street or book, whichever way he thinks will be best. but he should get the option to look at both sides of the debate.

anybody with an internet connection can quote google and claim to be an authority. some people take that way too far.

 

[RPh_Guy]

internet vs getting the info from someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about.

I wasn't referencing random people, but experts on sour beer processes that interact with hundreds of thousands of homebrewers making sour beer.
Also, in American Sour Beers by Mike Tonsmeire (another expert) he references only Cambridge Brewing Co under in sour worting process and they boil twice.

Here's another one for you
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/funkwerks-5-tips-kettle-sours/
American Homebrewers Association article.
Author is an award-winning professional brewer.

These are not simply "book smart" scientists who aren't making beer. These are well known and respected authors and brewers who are active in the brewing community and go through great lengths to discover best practices.

Your analogy is funny, but doesn't help your argument. If anyone is like a Bill Gates of sour beer brewing (especially kettle souring), it is these sources of information that I referenced.

best berliner ive ever tasted

Are the amazing beers you're referencing kettle sours? I doubt it, and so none of your input has any bearing on this thread or any discussion of kettle souring methods. Of course you obviously only boil once (or not at all) if it's not a kettle sour.

...

 

[SanPancho]

serious? mike T is the bill gates of sour beer? wow. ok, dude. cuz its just funny how your "experts" are the ones that pop up first on google.

you seem to ignore that there are decades of knowledge from actual beer scientists that do research and teach at the biggest brewing universities in the world, as if to you they are just a bunch of foolios next to your precious google references and your homebrewer home library. and yeah, lets forget the folks actually making beer for a living- you quoted a homebrew conference handout which is obviously the gold standard, so that guy making a living brewing 5000bbls a year must be an idiot. him and his gold medals, pfft,what does he know? amiright?

wow.


now, how long are you going to keep this going so you can have the last word?

 

[RPh_Guy]

serious? mike T is the bill gates of sour beer? wow. ok, dude. cuz its just funny how your "experts" are the ones that pop up first on google.

you seem to ignore that there are decades of knowledge from actual beer scientists that do research and teach at the biggest brewing universities in the world, as if to you they are just a bunch of foolios next to your precious google references and your homebrewer home library. and yeah, lets forget the folks actually making beer for a living- you quoted a homebrew conference handout which is obviously the gold standard, so that guy making a living brewing 5000bbls a year must be an idiot. him and his gold medals, pfft,what does he know? amiright?

wow.


now, how long are you going to keep this going so you can have the last word?

Scientists publish results in peer-reviewed journals (because it generates revenue).

If you can't offer any scientific articles or any documented statements from professionals that suggest "it's better not to pre-boil a kettle sour", then we have nothing further to discuss.

Your story about the legendary berliner has no credibility as you've already admitted you don't know details about that's brewer's process. You haven't said the brewery or whether it's a kettle sour but you want us to take your word about single boil being the best brewing process for a kettle sour... ?

Cheers

 

[radwizard]

Wow, you guys take your Berliners seriously!

If anyone is interested, this is my procedure:

-60/40 Base malt and White wheat malt.
-Mash at 148ish
-Mash out
-Bring temp up to 185 for 15 minutes
-Chill
-Pitch yeast, and 2 shots of good belly
-Somewhere between 24 and 48 hours add hops

Ive done the kettle sour with boiling deal before and prefer this route. I dont see the need to kill the lacto. The souring is pretty easy to control with hops if you are using plantarum.

Lately I have been using Kviek in my Berliners and couldnt be happier with tge results.

 

[doug293cz]

Folks, it's ok to disagree with each other. What is not ok is to make it personal. Insulting another member's motives, intelligence, etc. will get your post deleted. A number of posts in this thread have been deleted for that reason. Please discuss civilly.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[doug293cz]

If you folks can't heed my previous warning, this thread will be closed. Personal warnings and/or temporary bans may also be issued.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[SanPancho]

i will say this. mr radwizard just stated he prefers his one boil.

there is no law or authority who can claim the "correct" way to make a kettle sour berliner.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A "kettle sour" is when you let Lacto sour the wort, you kill the Lacto with heat, and then you pitch yeast.

 

[DeanRIowa]

Wow, you guys take your Berliners seriously!

If anyone is interested, this is my procedure:

-60/40 Base malt and White wheat malt.
-Mash at 148ish
-Mash out
-Bring temp up to 185 for 15 minutes
-Chill
-Pitch yeast, and 2 shots of good belly
-Somewhere between 24 and 48 hours add hops

Ive done the kettle sour with boiling deal before and prefer this route. I dont see the need to kill the lacto. The souring is pretty easy to control with hops if you are using plantarum.

Lately I have been using Kviek in my Berliners and couldnt be happier with tge results.

Your looks like a good process as well. I will probably follow your process then after souring I will boil at least this time as to not have to worry about infecting my equipment, maybe if I continue brewing more sours I will dedicate some equipment.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

Dean

 

[RPh_Guy]

Your looks like a good process as well. I will probably follow your process then after souring I will boil at least this time as to not have to worry about infecting my equipment, maybe if I continue brewing more sours I will dedicate some equipment.

Thank you everyone for your advice.

Dean

Lacto and yeast together (a type of "mixed fermentation") is a great method! It's more simple than kettle souring and I also prefer it.

However with mixed fermentation, bacteria do come into contact with your cold-side equipment.
The good news is that if the bacteria somehow survive your cleaning and sanitation, L. plantarum still should not affect hopped beers. So, there's no need for separate equipment since the risk of contamination is next to nothing.

Boiling removes alcohol, so you don't want to boil after pitching yeast.

Hope this makes sense.
Cheers

 

[SanPancho]

a kettle sour is when you sour in the kettle. as opposed to a secondary vessel. or souring fermentation.

hence the name.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Besides what I mentioned, you're on the right track

Standard kettle sour process:
Consider making a buffered Lacto starter to speed up souring.
Consider making a yeast starter or increased pitching rate.

Mash as normal.
Boil 15 min, no hops.
Chill to 98F.
Chill a sample to measure s.g.
[If you have a pH meter, pre-acidify wort to 4.0-4.5.]
Pitch Lacto culture of L. plantarum (preferred).
Seal kettle as well as reasonably possible.
[If you have a pH meter, monitor pH.]
Should take around 24-72 hours to sour.
Boil 45 mins, adding hops or anything else as desired.
Chill and transfer to carboy as normal.
Aerate and pitch yeast as normal.

---
Here's what I use:
Renew Life Ultimate Flora.
View attachment 594320

Anything with L. plantarum is good. It produces a nice level of clean sourness quickly over a large temperature range. Plus it's cheap!

Store Lacto in the fridge to maintain viability. If you do it will last a long time.

---
More reading:
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

Cheers

Haha are you serious?! I just read this from dr lambic, he says to add a probiotic. I didn’t think that’s what he meant! So is that what you use instead of buying LAB from Wyeast or whoever?!

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I add Lactic acid, stir, and test pH.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring#How_to_Pre-Acidify
"Using 1 mL of 88% lactic acid per .1 shift in pH for 5 gallons of wort is a good starting measurement."
This works in my experience.

I generally wouldn't recommend this unless you have a pH meter.

What kind of pH meter do you use? I just have one off of eBay that cost like $16-20. It works but I also feel like I fluctuate the reading by shaking it in water

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's common to use probiotics with L. plantarum. Swanson's capsules and GoodBelly liquid are both popular.
Besides probiotics and lab cultures, you could also use grain or yogurt as sources (YMMV).

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources

I use an old Hanna pH meter. Nothing fancy; 0.01 resolution and manual 2-point calibration.

Try this thread for more info: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-meter-calibration.302256/

 

[TEWNCfarms]

It's common to use probiotics with L. plantarum. Swanson's capsules and GoodBelly liquid are both popular.
Besides probiotics and lab cultures, you could also use grain or yogurt as sources (YMMV).

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources

I use an old Hanna pH meter. Nothing fancy; 0.01 resolution and manual 2-point calibration.

Try this thread for more info: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-meter-calibration.302256/

Awesome thanks

 

[DeanRIowa]

The beer turned out really good, though it took 2 months to clean up some weird taste it had. The information on the process, i received above worked like a charm.

Improvement Notes:

• Used 3 oz of hibiscus, I will increase to 4 oz next time
• Use gelatin to clear up a bit more.
• Verify my OG before kettle souring, as afterwards it was 1.022, I had to add some honey to raise my gravity. I have tweaked my BIAB process to increase my efficiency.

Thanks again everyone for your advice,

Dean