Belgian tripel fermentation and sugar additions

[HBCBrewmaster]

So I'm going to brew my first belgian tripel and I have some questions if any one can help me out. I'm using Beer Smith and I've selected the "Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Light Body" which mashes at 150 for 75 min. I chose this temp because I want this beer to be fairly well attenuated down to about 1.012. OG is estimated to be 1.084 and FG 1.018. I assume that Beersmith doesn't account for the sugar addition drying the beer out but I could be wrong about that. I will pitch plenty of yeast, Wyeast 3787 grown 4 times in a 20 gallon batch. Should be 1-1.6 trillion cells. I will pitch the sugar just as the yeast slow down. So my concern is hitting my 1.012 FG. I don't know how much affect the sugar will have on the gravity. Is my mash temp right?

Thanks!

 

[MalFet]

The sugar will ferment out completely, so it will raise your OG but not your FG. Final gravities are always very crude estimates, typically based on a fixed "attenuation rate" specified for each yeast strain.

What do you mean when you say "grown four times"? Your pitching rate sounds reasonable enough, if you are actually hitting those numbers.

How much sugar are you adding, and I assume that the sugar is included in your 1.084 OG? If so, 1.012 sounds plausible if you have healthy yeast and good temperature control.

 

[HBCBrewmaster]

Thanks MalFet. What I do is get a single 100Billion cell smackpack and grow it once in 500 ml wort, once in 1000ml wort, split it and do a third in 2 x 1000 ml wort, and a fourth time in about 2 gallons. I use yeast nutrient and oxyginate each time. I'm guessing that I should about doubble my cell count each time. making 16 hundred BIIIILLLION. (That's my Dr. Evil impersonation) I do this on a stirrplate. Also, I'm adding 1.25 lbs of white table sugar to each 5 gallon primary just after high krautzen. Yes, the sugar adds to the OG bringing the estimated OG to 1.084.

 

[mhenry41h]

Thanks MalFet. What I do is get a single 100Billion cell smackpack and grow it once in 500 ml wort, twice in 1000 ml wort and a fourth time in about 2 gallons. I'm guessing that I should about doubble my cell count each time. making 16 hundred BIIIILLLION. (That's my Dr. Evil impersonation) I do this on a stirrplate.

How big are your batches? If you are pitching 16 hundred billion yeast cells in 5 gallons, there is alot of research out there to suggest you won't get the flavors you were looking for from a Belgian yeast. I pitched a 2000ml starter in my 5.5 gallon tripel and am not happy with the strength of the yeast character. In fact, I've read some studies on intentionally underpitching Belgians for increased yeast character. I have a 1.051 Belgian Single in the fermenter as we speak in which I only pitched a smacked smack pack of 1388 to see if it works for me.

 

[SickTransitMundus]

From recollection, Beersmith does not take mash temperature into account when predicting final gravity. It routinely predicts FGs of 1.014-1.018 and up for my belgians; in reality I get 1.008-1.010.

Sugar should be about 10-15% of your total grain bill. That, combined with a low mash temp, should give you a good shot at a properly dry tripel.

Speaking of which, I might lower your mash temp to the 147-148 range. Minor quibble.

 

[mhenry41h]

From recollection, Beersmith does not take mash temperature into account when predicting final gravity. It routinely predicts FGs of 1.014-1.018 and up for my belgians; in reality I get 1.008-1.010.

Sugar should be about 10-15% of your total grain bill. That, combined with a low mash temp, should give you a good shot at a properly dry tripel.

Speaking of which, I might lower your mash temp to the 147-148 range. Minor quibble.

I'm pretty sure Beersmith doesn't take sugar into account as well. My tripel was to finish at 1.014 per Beersmith but actually finished at 1.007.

 

[HBCBrewmaster]

Thanks guys. I posted a reply to Malfet and then was in the process of editing it while yall were replying. here is what I added...
Thanks MalFet. What I do is get a single 100Billion cell smackpack and grow it once in 500 ml wort, once in 1000ml wort, split it and do a third in 2 x 1000 ml wort, and a fourth time in about 2 gallons. I use yeast nutrient and oxyginate each time. I'm guessing that I should about doubble my cell count each time. making 16 hundred BIIIILLLION. (That's my Dr. Evil impersonation) I do this on a stirrplate. Also, I'm adding 1.25 lbs of white table sugar to each 5 gallon primary just after high krautzen. Yes, the sugar adds to the OG bringing the estimated OG to 1.084.

So, the basic recipee is this

21 gallons
55 lbs German Pilsner
9 oz Saaz
5 lbs table sugar.

Removing the sugar from the recipee in Beersmith takes the FG estimate from 1.018 to 1.017 so I would also assume the same- that it is not calculating the sugar addition into the final gravity estimate- except in so far as it contributes to OG because OG goes from 1.084 to 1.073 when sugar is removed.

So it looks like I have a recommendation for increasing the sugar to 6.5 lbs to 9.5 lbs(about 10%-15%) and drop the mash temp to about 148.

Mhenry41h, given the bach size do you think I have the right pitching rate?

 

[mhenry41h]

Thanks guys. I posted a reply to Malfet and then was in the process of editing it while yall were replying. here is what I added...
Thanks MalFet. What I do is get a single 100Billion cell smackpack and grow it once in 500 ml wort, once in 1000ml wort, split it and do a third in 2 x 1000 ml wort, and a fourth time in about 2 gallons. I use yeast nutrient and oxyginate each time. I'm guessing that I should about doubble my cell count each time. making 16 hundred BIIIILLLION. (That's my Dr. Evil impersonation) I do this on a stirrplate. Also, I'm adding 1.25 lbs of white table sugar to each 5 gallon primary just after high krautzen. Yes, the sugar adds to the OG bringing the estimated OG to 1.084.

So, the basic recipee is this

21 gallons
55 lbs German Pilsner
9 oz Saaz
5 lbs table sugar.

Removing the sugar from the recipee in Beersmith takes the FG estimate from 1.018 to 1.017 so I would also assume the same- that it is not calculating the sugar addition into the final gravity estimate- except in so far as it contributes to OG because OG goes from 1.084 to 1.073 when sugar is removed.

So it looks like I have a recommendation for increasing the sugar to 6.5 lbs to 9.5 lbs(about 10%-15%) and drop the mash temp to about 148.

Mhenry41h, given the bach size do you think I have the right pitching rate?

That makes sense...but "homey don't work" with batches of that size!!! lol

 

[DannPM]

Thanks guys. I posted a reply to Malfet and then was in the process of editing it while yall were replying. here is what I added...
Thanks MalFet. What I do is get a single 100Billion cell smackpack and grow it once in 500 ml wort, once in 1000ml wort, split it and do a third in 2 x 1000 ml wort, and a fourth time in about 2 gallons. I use yeast nutrient and oxyginate each time. I'm guessing that I should about doubble my cell count each time. making 16 hundred BIIIILLLION. (That's my Dr. Evil impersonation) I do this on a stirrplate. Also, I'm adding 1.25 lbs of white table sugar to each 5 gallon primary just after high krautzen. Yes, the sugar adds to the OG bringing the estimated OG to 1.084.

So, the basic recipee is this

21 gallons
55 lbs German Pilsner
9 oz Saaz
5 lbs table sugar.

Removing the sugar from the recipee in Beersmith takes the FG estimate from 1.018 to 1.017 so I would also assume the same- that it is not calculating the sugar addition into the final gravity estimate- except in so far as it contributes to OG because OG goes from 1.084 to 1.073 when sugar is removed.

So it looks like I have a recommendation for increasing the sugar to 6.5 lbs to 9.5 lbs(about 10%-15%) and drop the mash temp to about 148.

Mhenry41h, given the bach size do you think I have the right pitching rate?

Bump the sugar up to 16-18% and you should be have no problem getting 85% attenuation

For the pitching rate, try MrMalty.com Pitching rate Calc

 

[mhenry41h]

Mr Malty recommends 13.5 packs without a starter so I'm thinking your 16 hundred billion cells would be just higher than Jamil suggests. Somebody who brews big batches correct me, but I think it should be a good.

 

[HBCBrewmaster]

Mr Malty recommends 13.5 packs without a starter so I'm thinking your 16 hundred billion cells would be just higher than Jamil suggests. Somebody who brews big batches correct me, but I think it should be a good.

Thanks for the link. that's pretty cool. I need to read up on yeast propagation so I know better what I'm doing. I think it was in Palmers book that I read that each time you grow your yeast it should double in volume. But I don't know if my method is ideal. I'll say this though, it's a pain in the arse to have to brew a beer just so I can brew a beer! Ahh but a labor of love non the less.

 

[MalFet]

Thanks for the link. that's pretty cool. I need to read up on yeast propagation so I know better what I'm doing. I think it was in Palmers book that I read that each time you grow your yeast it should double in volume. But I don't know if my method is ideal. I'll say this though, it's a pain in the arse to have to brew a beer just so I can brew a beer! Ahh but a labor of love non the less.

Yeast population growth is a lot more complicated than that, but as a rule of thumb it seems you need about a liter of starter per 100 billion cells on a stir plate to see a doubling. Simply adding the yeast to any sized starter won't make it happen.

A lot of the recent research has been indicating that the old "underpitching = lots of yeast character, overpitching = little yeast character" is at best grossly oversimplified and at worst completely wrong. Specifically, George Fix has suggested that underpitching can suppress the production of desirable esters by limiting availability of acetyl-coA.

In any case, try and see for yourself. Yeast pitching rates are still poorly understood.

 

[mhenry41h]

Yeast population growth is a lot more complicated than that, but as a rule of thumb it seems you need about a liter of starter per 100 billion cells on a stir plate to see a doubling. Simply adding the yeast to any sized starter won't make it happen.

A lot of the recent research has been indicating that the old "underpitching = lots of yeast character, overpitching = little yeast character" is at best grossly oversimplified and at worst completely wrong. Specifically, George Fix has suggested that underpitching can suppress the production of desirable esters by limiting availability of acetyl-coA.

In any case, try and see for yourself. Yeast pitching rates are still poorly understood.

I know that Ommegang has a seriously high pitch rate which would definitely go against the case for underpitching. Their stuff doesnt lack yeast character. That's why the two beers in my fermenter are experimental. My Belgian was underpitched and my American Wheat was overpitched. As of yesterdays hydro samples, both were about the same regarding attenuation percentage and neither seemed overly OR underly characterful regarding the yeast...

 

[MalFet]

I know that Ommegang has a seriously high pitch rate which would definitely go against the case for underpitching. Their stuff doesnt lack yeast character. That's why the two beers in my fermenter are experimental. My Belgian was underpitched and my American Wheat was overpitched. As of yesterdays hydro samples, both were about the same regarding attenuation percentage and neither seemed overly OR underly characterful regarding the yeast...

Interesting. I think a lot of the conventional wisdom about belgians might be completely wrong. I've been experimenting with saisons lately, trying to get them extremely dry and estery. I've had the most success with huge pitches at relatively low temperatures. Last one was pitched at about 1.5M cells/mL at 64ºF using Wyeast 3724, and it's almost excessive how much ester character it's got. Still, that's just anecdotal. Best thing to do is to experiment like you're doing.

 

[mhenry41h]

Im actually surprised at how little yeast character my fermenting single has at this point. I thought a simple grain bill (mostly Belgian Pilsner, a touch of White Wheat, and a touch of Acidulated) would give me a small and super characterful brew. It seems weak right now. I recently bought some Smuttynose Star Island Single to compare what I was working with and I didn't feel it was very good. Mine seems to be trending down that road. I have to acknowledge that my palatte doesn't do well with unfinished, uncarbonated, and green beer. Hopefully Im wrong. At 1.5 weeks in the primary, I doubt it will taste anything like it does now.