Belgian ale, I'm trying and failing.. but now?

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schmurf

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Confession time, I'm having difficulties to find a Belgian ale I do appreciate. It's something with character the yeast strains produce I guess. However, last week I had a bottle of Brother Thelonius from North Coast Brewing and it was a game changer for me, a beer I enjoyed a LOT, Belgian character but without the flavours I don't appreciate. So, knowing there are a lot of Belgian ale connoisseurs here, is there anyone who can tell how this fine ale is made? Yeast? Fermentation? Google doesn't tell much unfortunally.
 
It's a Belgian Dark Strong Ale or sometimes referred to as a Belgian Quad.

Look in the recipe database, most will have similar recipes.
Pilsen malt with a bit of Belgian Aromatic(debatable), dark candy syrup, continental hops like Saaz or Tettnanger and Belgian Yeast.
Some add spices like orange peel and coriander, although I feel that they are a bit out of style.
I prefer WLP-530 yeast from White labs.
Mash low like 149 or so.
Cool to low 60's and let temperate rise naturally.

Brew Like a Monk is a good read.
 
It’s closest true-belgian equivalent is called a quadrupel. It’s going to take some trial and error to replicate, since most of the characters comes from yeast esters/phenols and are subject to a lot of different variables. Fermentation temperature control is important for most belgians.
 
Thank you. In the last year I tried to brew three Belgian ales myself, a double, a triple and a quad taken from recipes on the internet. I used WLP530, Wyeast 1214 and Lallemand Abbaye respectivly. All those had the character I don't like. I have compared them to commercial examples (mostly Belgian ales from Swedish breweries) and I don't think there were any major flaws with my brews, I just didn't care for the outcome. It's something with Brother Thelonius that is different though (and probably a lot of others, I just haven't found them yet). I have fermented them with start at 20C (68F) and then raised to a couple of degrees more, except the one with Lallemand Abbaye which started at 18C (64F). Is it just as simple as I'm fermenting too warm for my liking?
 
Various esters and phenols come out at different temperatures with Belgian Yeasts.
I try to start low with a good starter, keep it low (62-64) for the first day or two, then raise it a degree or two each day until it gets to 70 or so, then let it go where it wants to so that it will finish up.
Now Belgian beers are my favorite styles, so that that for what it's worth.
What may be offensive to you taste wise, I may enjoy.

Try to reach out to them and see if they will provide any insight as to the recipe, mash temps, and fermentation profile.
Some breweries will help, others will ignore you or tell you to take a leap. It's their secret recipe.
I've seen some commercial beers that pretty much had the recipe on the label.
 
I did try to ask them some days ago and thought I wouldn't get a response. And well as it happens, just as I was reading your response, I got a reply from the head brewer himself., who is also a home brewer. I'll try to get the answers I'm looking for from him :)
 
It may be an idea to use google translate and browse some of the Belgian and Dutch homebrew fora...
Plenty clone recipes there.
I haven't heard of Brother Thelonius, but will do a search for you
 
Last edited:
schmurf said:
Brother Thelonius from North Coast Brewing and it was a game changer for me, a beer I enjoyed a LOT, Belgian character but without the flavours I don't appreciate.
Click to expand...

My question would be what types of "Belgian" beers have you tried that you did not appreciate? I do not recall having this beer, but I have had at least Pranqster, and that seems like a pretty solid example of Belgian Golden Ale. Have you tried some of the popular Quads / Dark Strong style beers from Belgian brewers? I am wondering if you don't care much for Saisons, or farmhouse/brett/sour styles, but maybe you do like Quads.

If you tried one of the following that are more common (from the 2015 style guide) then maybe somebody could help out more:
Achel Extra Brune, Boulevard The Sixth Glass, Chimay Grande Réserve, Gouden Carolus Grand Cru of the Emperor, Rochefort 8, Rochefort 10, St. Bernardus Abt 12, Westvleteren 12.
Click to expand...

St. Bernardus Abt 12 might be my favorite beer of all time. Rochefort beers are all solid as well.
 
Thanks guys. I "gave up" on Belgians a long time ago, when I realized I didn't like them much. I admit I came to that "conclusion" pretty quickly without giving them much of a chance.. kinda like "ok so this is what Belgian beer tastes like, not so much for me". Anyhow, I have been trying an odd beer now and then since, just to check if my taste has changed or if I suddenly find this beer I actually like. It haven't been any thought out plan unfortunally, so I haven't kept track of what beers I've tried. It has been mostly blondes, doubles and triples I would think, but again.... no thought behind it. It was the same this time, I just saw this bottle and bought it and had no expectation at all, but then got so pleasantly surprised when I actually drank it.

I guess I have to do some more research and explore with a little more thought behind than it have been up to now, now when I know better...

Regarding Brother Thelonius, I didn't ask the brewer for the recipe as such, but more of hints on how to make a beer like that. It might be common knowledge for most of you but some of his recommendations are
  • a lot of brown/dark sugar/syrup, 15% or so
  • stay away from yeasts producing iso-amylacetate
  • aerate as there is no tomorrow
  • pitch cold and with PLENTY of yeast
  • keep fermentation temp. on the lower end
 
schmurf said:
Thanks guys. I "gave up" on Belgians a long time ago, when I realized I didn't like them much. I admit I came to that "conclusion" pretty quickly without giving them much of a chance.. kinda like "ok so this is what Belgian beer tastes like, not so much for me". Anyhow, I have been trying an odd beer now and then since, just to check if my taste has changed or if I suddenly find this beer I actually like. It haven't been any thought out plan unfortunally, so I haven't kept track of what beers I've tried. It has been mostly blondes, doubles and triples I would think, but again.... no thought behind it. It was the same this time, I just saw this bottle and bought it and had no expectation at all, but then got so pleasantly surprised when I actually drank it.

I guess I have to do some more research and explore with a little more thought behind than it have been up to now, now when I know better...

Regarding Brother Thelonius, I didn't ask the brewer for the recipe as such, but more of hints on how to make a beer like that. It might be common knowledge for most of you but some of his recommendations are
  • a lot of brown/dark sugar/syrup, 15% or so
  • stay away from yeasts producing iso-amylacetate
  • aerate as there is no tomorrow
  • pitch cold and with PLENTY of yeast
  • keep fermentation temp. on the lower end
Click to expand...
For a long time I wasn't into the Belgian styles, but then I started going to a weekly tasting at one of my local bottle shops. They sample out 6 to 8 beers on a theme - sometimes by brewery, or style, or name or whatever. The guy who ran the tastings was a pretty big fan of Belgian styles, so for a while they featured fairly heavily, and I ended up getting a taste for them.
|Now Tripel is probably one of my favorite styles, saison not far behind.
 
schmurf said:
Thanks guys. I "gave up" on Belgians a long time ago, when I realized I didn't like them much. I admit I came to that "conclusion" pretty quickly without giving them much of a chance.. kinda like "ok so this is what Belgian beer tastes like, not so much for me". Anyhow, I have been trying an odd beer now and then since, just to check if my taste has changed or if I suddenly find this beer I actually like. It haven't been any thought out plan unfortunally, so I haven't kept track of what beers I've tried. It has been mostly blondes, doubles and triples I would think, but again.... no thought behind it. It was the same this time, I just saw this bottle and bought it and had no expectation at all, but then got so pleasantly surprised when I actually drank it.

I guess I have to do some more research and explore with a little more thought behind than it have been up to now, now when I know better...

Regarding Brother Thelonius, I didn't ask the brewer for the recipe as such, but more of hints on how to make a beer like that. It might be common knowledge for most of you but some of his recommendations are
  • a lot of brown/dark sugar/syrup, 15% or so
  • stay away from yeasts producing iso-amylacetate
  • aerate as there is no tomorrow
  • pitch cold and with PLENTY of yeast
  • keep fermentation temp. on the lower end
Click to expand...
I’m not sure about the iso whatever that says but I’m guessing its something to do with producing a sour character. Lacto.

Big aeration, lots of yeast and fermentation temp on the lower end will all result in a “cleaner” beer (well, at least as clean as Belgians can get) with less esters. Lots of Belgian beers are “funky” and it sounds like the process they use would make this less funky.
 
I just bottled a Belgian pale ale last night (pale ale by design, but at 6.4% abv, maybe a BIPA). This is the third Belgian I have brewed, the first two being Dubbels. For both of the latest brews, I used WLP550 Belgian Ale Yeast, fermented without temperature control. I find this yeast delivers some Belgian character, but not too much. To my nose and palate, I get some spicy fruitiness, but no banana.
 
rock_n_herm said:
For both of the latest brews, I used WLP550 Belgian Ale Yeast, fermented without temperature control. I find this yeast delivers some Belgian character, but not too much. To my nose and palate, I get some spicy fruitiness, but no banana.
Click to expand...
I’ve brewed two Belgian Quads and tomorrow a Dubbel with dry yeast — Mangrove Jack M41. I will move to liquid yeast soon. Do you think the WLP550 Belgian Ale yeast would give you a different flavor profile than what you described with more precise temperature control? Thanks.
 
Dancy said:
I’ve brewed two Belgian Quads and tomorrow a Dubbel with dry yeast — Mangrove Jack M41. I will move to liquid yeast soon. Do you think the WLP550 Belgian Ale yeast would give you a different flavor profile than what you described with more precise temperature control? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Though I have no way of knowing exactly what temperature my fermentation reached, I do know the ambient temp in my fermentation closet was consistently around 65F throughout the 3 weeks that I left my brew in the fermenter. Given the ideal range for WLP 550 is 68-78F, I bet I was safely within the lower half of that range for the most active part of fermentation. It would not be a surprise if my Dubbel showed stronger Belgian character if my fermentation temp was higher.
Just for comparison, the first Dubbel that I made was fermented with WLP 500 (Belgian Abbey Yeast) during the summer at higher ambient temps, and that beer had much stronger Belgian character, in my opinion.
 
rock_n_herm said:
Just for comparison, the first Dubbel that I made was fermented with WLP 500 (Belgian Abbey Yeast) during the summer at higher ambient temps, and that beer had much stronger Belgian character, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that’s useful. My only temp control is an insulated bag designed for fermenters with ice packs inside. My room temp is a steady 72F. Some say to start fermenting BAs at the lower end and increase a bit each day. Mangrove Jack M41 has a stated fermentation temp range of 64 - 82F. I can cool down to at least 64F with my IC and use ice packs the first two days. MG M41 ferments fast and the temp in the fermenter really takes off quickly to 78F+ when ice packs aren’t used. One batch in particular (no ice packs, just let the yeast do it’s thing) had a hot alcohol characteristic going on so I’m thinking that could be why. You stated when you fermented at high temps there was stronger Belgian character. I’m wondering if that has anything to do with you using liquid yeast. Next time I’m trying liquid yeast with a starter.
 
Dancy said:
Some say to start fermenting BAs at the lower end and increase a bit each day.
Click to expand...

A while back I brewed a Trippel with M31. I fermented it in a bathroom with an ambient temp of around 72F. During active fermentation the beer pushed itself up to around 78F. That batch ended up with harsh/hot alcoholic notes that still lingers after a year. I kept hoping one day it would become wonderful (I think I have a bottle or two left). I split that batch and the half that was fermented with temperature control, and the batch with temp control was much better. (Though some homebrew friends liked the warm fermented one with feedback like it "had more Belgian character.")

I don't think there is a generic rule that applies to all Belgian yeasts. Saison yeasts seem to work well up to 80F and above. Some of the other Belgian styles yeasts might work better in that temp range than M31. I brewed a Dubbel yesterday with WLP530 that is fermented in a lower level room with an ambient of 64F. I pitched the yeast at 66F, and this morning it has been slowly creeping up and is currently at 72F. I am hoping it will stay below 74F.
 
I brewed a Belgian golden strong ale- Duvel clone. I did a step at 131, 146, and mash out 168 (12lb Begian Pilsner). Pitched 2 pack WLP570 and 1 pack Wyeast 1388 at 64 (store didn’t have enough-I didn’t have time for a starter )and have been raising temp to 80 degrees over the last 5 days. It’s 75% done at 1.028 but fermentation has slowed quite a bit. I did put all sugar/syrup last minutes of boil. It has a nice sweet flavor and is definitely fermenting still, just quite slow. The plan is to leave at 82 degrees for two weeks. The question is if you think it will continue to EFG 1.010? Is this normal for this style beer/yeast?
 

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rock_n_herm said:
I just bottled a Belgian pale ale last night (pale ale by design, but at 6.4% abv, maybe a BIPA). This is the third Belgian I have brewed, the first two being Dubbels. For both of the latest brews, I used WLP550 Belgian Ale Yeast, fermented without temperature control. I find this yeast delivers some Belgian character, but not too much. To my nose and palate, I get some spicy fruitiness, but no banana.
Click to expand...
I just kegged my Belgian pale tonight. This is the third time I've brewed it and my first with WLP550. It had enough Belgian yeast character to make it interesting, but not overpowering.
 
schmurf said:
Regarding Brother Thelonius, I didn't ask the brewer for the recipe as such, but more of hints on how to make a beer like that. It might be common knowledge for most of you but some of his recommendations are
  • a lot of brown/dark sugar/syrup, 15% or so
  • stay away from yeasts producing iso-amylacetate
  • aerate as there is no tomorrow
  • pitch cold and with PLENTY of yeast
  • keep fermentation temp. on the lower end
Click to expand...

Thelonius is one of my favorites, too. It’s a bit strong, but worth it.

My favorite Dubbel recipe uses no dark roasted malt, but uses D-180 Candi Syrup. It’s quite special - no burnt notes. It has Maillard conversion flavors of dark fruit like cherry and plum in layers.
 
I have a brew day coming up where I will take a stab of something similair to Brother Thelonius. It's not a clone by all means, but at least shares the statistics of it and got a thumbs up from the brewer, Patrick. He didn't say what yeast they're using so I picked something labelled as "clean" from wyeast (1762) and I'm going to ferment it on the cold side. Time will tell whether I'll make something I like or not... at least I'm trying 😄
 
I’ve used 1762 Abbey II in hoppy Belgian ales. I had very good luck at 64-65 degF. I wanted more ester-y flavors, so I switched to 3522 Ardennes, my current favorite for Belgians.

Good luck!
 
Last edited:
PberBob said:
so I switched to 3522 Ardennes, my current favorite for Belgians.
Click to expand...
What temperature do you ferment using 3522 Ardennes? I have had mixed success with this yeast, but I think it was (mostly) due to poor temperature control. I just got a glycol chiller and am planning to try again soon.
 
I’ve brewed a recipe twice that emulates Brother Thelonius. I used Wyeast Labs 3787 Trappist High Gravity yeast. I started the yeast in two steps to build the cell count. Mashed @ 148 for 75 minutes and kept the mash ph a little higher than I normally would (about 5.8 - 6.2). Fermented @ 67F for almost 3 weeks and keg conditioned for another 4 weeks.
 
DavidWood2115 said:
What temperature do you ferment using 3522 Ardennes? I have had mixed success with this yeast, but I think it was (mostly) due to poor temperature control. I just got a glycol chiller and am planning to try again soon.
Click to expand...

I start at 64-5 and finish at about 72 F. I’ve never tried to push it towards 80. (I can’t get and stay there. It cools down overnight here.). I’m thinking about it though.
 
1999-2000 timeframe I came down with an autoimmune disorder that I swear to this day was from drinking Belgian beer. I had just discovered it. I kind of proved it because after I got better I was fine until I drank Belgian beer again and came down with the same thing again very shortly after. I have not drank Belgian beer since and I have not been sick since. I won’t touch it now.
 
bwible said:
1999-2000 timeframe I came down with an autoimmune disorder that I swear to this day was from drinking Belgian beer. I had just discovered it. I kind of proved it because after I got better I was fine until I drank Belgian beer again and came down with the same thing again very shortly after. I have not drank Belgian beer since and I have not been sick since. I won’t touch it now.
Click to expand...


Often times when I drink Belgian beers, I have problems with my balance and have a hard time walking. lol
 
bwible said:
I have not been sick since. I won’t touch it now.
Click to expand...
It's a happy ending.
I won't eat White Castles after ejecting from both ends at the same time for two hours. I know it was probably just someone who had poop on their hands and didn't wash before they made my yummy sliders but I just can't go to White Castles (20 years). My situation was just temporary.
Did you ever discover what the Belgian problem was?
 
It's really hard to say specifically. You could get three different beers using three different yeasts on the same recipe. Brew Like a Monk is a very good book. I have it in my brew library, have read through it a few times, but always reference it when I am building or tweaking my Belgian recipes. If I were you, go down the list of Belgian styles and taste them, using a tasting note sheet, like this one. On a related note: I do this with my Wife so she can become more knowledgeable in tasting and picking apart a brew. I do this with ALL of my beers, helps with tweaking recipes. But I digress, look into the BJCP and see the styles and the mentioned commercial brews that fit that style. That being said, Brother Thelonious by North Coast is quite good and is a Dark Strong Ale or a "Quadrupel", BJCP Style 26D. St Bernardus Abt 12 is a very good option as well. This also is where the Belgian style is broken into three categories: 24(Belgian Ale), 25(Strong Belgian Ale) and 26(Monastic Ale). Singles, Dubbels, Tripels and Dark Strong Ale/Quadrupel are Monastic. I would start in that category first and then work into 24 and 25. My input for you is explore that and figure out what you like, then dig into the recipe that is Brother Thelonious. Here is a 2.5G recipe I found that you could likely scale and tweak. You could use Wyeast 1388 or WLP530. Definitely start toward the bottom of the temperature range and let it slowly rise on it's own to finish.
 
DBhomebrew said:
Banana
Click to expand...
You will find it in a whole lot of trappist beers (Westmalle) and abbey beers.

But there is no general category Belgian beers. We have
  • The trappist beers
    • Blonde tripels
    • (Relatively) light and strong dark beers
  • A whole lot of abbey beers
  • Speciale Belge, or Belgian Pale Ale
  • Saisons of course
  • Lambic and gueuze, and the derived fruit beers
  • The strong blond beers like Duvel, Omer and Filou
  • and then we have a whole lot of new brewers who go crazy (Brussels Beer Project is very create, or 'T Verzet, White Pony Microbrewery)
  • Beers like Kasteel Donker, Gouden Carolus and Straffe Hendrik
The banana you will find it actually more in blond beers. The dark beers seem to have it less.

My personal favorites: Westmalle Tripel, WV12, St.-Bernardus Tripel and Abt 12, Rochefort 8 and 10, Kasteel Donker, Martha Brown Eyes.

Since a couple of years I ferment my abbey/trappist style beers open (covered by cheese cloth), and I underpitch a little bit (0.65 instead of minimum 0.75). Except for placing my fermentation vessel in a room with a relatively stable temperature, I don't do any temperature control.
 
Nice to see you here @chthon . I love and I don't love Belgian ales. The first because they're usually gorgeous and the second because a beer-swilling Englishman like myself doesn't stay standing for very long after a couple of gallons or three. chthon's right; there are as many styles of Belgian ale as there are US beers and its difficult to know what the OP means when he or she says that he likes the character of a particular beer because it doesn't have the flavours that he or she dislikes. I bit more description would be appreciated. In the meantime, I'll check out Bro Thelonius.
@chthon , do you underpitch to increase the POF of the yeast by stressing it a bit?
 
Last edited:
schmurf said:
I have a brew day coming up where I will take a stab of something similair to Brother Thelonius. It's not a clone by all means, but at least shares the statistics of it and got a thumbs up from the brewer, Patrick. He didn't say what yeast they're using so I picked something labelled as "clean" from wyeast (1762) and I'm going to ferment it on the cold side. Time will tell whether I'll make something I like or not... at least I'm trying 😄
Click to expand...
Did you brew the beer? If so, how did it turn out?
 
chthon said:
You will find it in a whole lot of trappist beers (Westmalle) and abbey beers.

But there is no general category Belgian beers. We have
  • The trappist beers
    • Blonde tripels
    • (Relatively) light and strong dark beers
  • A whole lot of abbey beers
  • Speciale Belge, or Belgian Pale Ale
  • Saisons of course
  • Lambic and gueuze, and the derived fruit beers
  • The strong blond beers like Duvel, Omer and Filou
  • and then we have a whole lot of new brewers who go crazy (Brussels Beer Project is very create, or 'T Verzet, White Pony Microbrewery)
  • Beers like Kasteel Donker, Gouden Carolus and Straffe Hendrik
The banana you will find it actually more in blond beers. The dark beers seem to have it less.

My personal favorites: Westmalle Tripel, WV12, St.-Bernardus Tripel and Abt 12, Rochefort 8 and 10, Kasteel Donker, Martha Brown Eyes.

Since a couple of years I ferment my abbey/trappist style beers open (covered by cheese cloth), and I underpitch a little bit (0.65 instead of minimum 0.75). Except for placing my fermentation vessel in a room with a relatively stable temperature, I don't do any temperature control.
Click to expand...
This. So much this. Belgian beers are known for the amount of variety they have. I don’t think you can dislike Belgian beers as a whole. It would be like saying you dislike all American beers. There’s just no way you can say that unless you just don’t like beer (and even then, I’d say it’s pretty suspect). Likely you just haven’t gotten your hands on the one you like. I’m currently drinking the New Belgian honey trippel that’s delicious, but dangerous. Sweet, but easy drinking. I have my own trippel brewed with abbey yeast that is bottle conditioning- but the uncarbonated taste is a banana spice, not unlike a weizen. I also have a Belgian strong made with corriander, ginger, and grains of paradise that is currently fermenting. I think the biggest thing is to try as many as you can find and see what flavors work for you
 

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