Beers Taste Like Dust

[ryzaa]

Hi all,

As the name suggests, I have been having some issues with my beers going very dusty of late. The kind of taste and sensation of walking into a dust storm. Dried out mouth with a kind of dirty, earthy, dusty type of taste to it.

I will list the recipes this has happened to below, with an outline of the processes and differences between them all. Every single one of these has been made in the past 2 months.

I don't believe it is infection related, I heat sterilise and K-Meta everything religiously, both before and after every brew or bottle day. Taps cleaned, bungs soaked and I ditch any bottles/taps/etc that I can't clean to an acceptable level.

**TL;CBF Reading Processes/Ingredients/Miscellaneous Crap? Skip to the bottom

The first recipe I did that went dusty is as follows:

Adelaide Tap Water:
Calcium(Ca): 27.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 14.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 74.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 59.0 ppm
Chloride (Cl): 123.0 ppm
Bicarbonate(HCO3): 66.0 ppm
PH: 7.4 PH

This goes through a sediment filter and gets dosed with a pinch of K-Meta to remove Chlorine.

System used in this first beer was a 3 Vessel Keg System, fermented in a 30L [8G] plastic fermenter

Recipe Style: Saison
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Danstar Belle Saison [Wyeast 3711]
Yeast Starter: Hydrated
Batch Size: 20L [5.25g]
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.004
ABV: 6.1%
IBU: 16
Boiling Time: 60 Minutes
Color: 5
Fermentation: 13 days at 21C [70F]
Tasting Notes: Dead
Efficiency: 80%

2.5kg [5.5lbs] Barrett Burston Pale Malt
1kg [2.2lbs] Joe White Wheat Malt
0.5kg [1.1lbs] Flaked Oats
200g [7oz] Best Sauermalt
100g [3.5oz] Weyermann Munich 1

Mashed at 62C [144F] for 40 minutes at 2.5L/kg [1.2 Quarts/Lb], brought up to 68C [154F] by adding hot water to around 3L/kg [1.45 Quarts/Lb] Sparged with 77C [170F] Water

5g [0.17oz] Azacca - 60 Minutes
20g [0.7oz] Azacca - Flame Out
40g [1.4oz] Azacca - When Whirlpool hits 80C [176F]

100g [3.5oz] Azacca - Dry Hops split over 2 additions, one when krausen drops, the other 4 days after.

Bottled 4 days after last dry hop. Racked off into bottling bucket and bulk primed to 2.8 vols

Looks perfect, ideal carbonation. Tastes like dust. And tasted like it from my first sample, 2 days in, gravity 1.020.


The next beer was done using rain water, at a different location, using a completely different system. BIAB single vessel NE Style Pale Ale

Recipe Style: Pale Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast London Ale III
Yeast Starter: Yes
Batch Size: 20L [5.25g]
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.006
ABV: 5.8%
IBU: 50
Boiling Time: 60 Minutes
Color: 7
Fermentation: 10 days at 19C [66F]
Tasting Notes: Headless, muted hop flavours, faded dust.
Efficiency: 60%

4kg [8.8lbs] Barrett Burston Pale Malt
0.75kg [1.65lbs] Flaked Oats
0.25kg [9oz] Joe White Wheat Malt
0.25kg [9oz] Weyermann Munich 1
0.25kg [9oz] Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
0.25kg [9oz] Joe White Light Crystal [60L]

Mashed at 66C [150F] for 60 minutes at 3L/kg [1.45 Quarts/Lb]
No sparge

20g [0.7oz] Magnum - FWH
60g [2.15oz] Hop Blend* - Flame Out
60g [2.15oz] Hop Blend - When Whirlpool hits 80C [176F]

190g [6.7oz] Hop Blend- Dry Hops split over 2 additions, one when krausen drops, the other 5 days after.

* Hop Blend is a blend of 90g [3.2oz] each of Citra, Amarillo and Simcoe with 40g [1.4oz] Mosaic

Bottled 3 days after last dry hop. Racked off into bottling bucket and bulk primed to 2.2 vols

Tasted great up until bottling day. Went dusty. The dirt flavour is subsiding and being replaced by the fruity hop flavours you would expect from the recipe. Plenty carbed enough but holds no head, unlike the Saison which has a nice thick head.


The next beer was done using adjusted [1.25 tsp CaCl2 and 2/3tsp CaSO4] rain water, same location, this time using a different vessel to mash in. BIAB 2 vessel NE Style India Pale Ale

Recipe Style: India Pale Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: GigaYeast Vermont Ale Double Pitch [Conan]
Yeast Starter: No
Batch Size: 18L [4.75g]
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.008
ABV: 7.3%
IBU: 70
Boiling Time: 60 Minutes
Color: 7
Fermentation: 12 days at 19C [66F]
Tasting Notes: More headless, muted hop flavours, not that dusty, but still noticeable.
Efficiency: 55%

5kg [11lbs] Barrett Burston Pale Malt
0.7kg [1.54lbs] Flaked Oats
0.35kg [0.77lbs] Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
0.15kg [0.33lbs] Joe White Wheat Malt
0.15kg [0.33lbs] Dextrose
0.1kg [3.5oz] Joe White Light Crystal [60L]

Mashed at 66C [150F] at 3L/kg [1.45 Quarts/Lb], temperature dropped lots, lots of pulling off and heating to 70C [158F] while constantly stirring and adding back into the mash. 90 minute or so mash.
Sparged with Cold Water

10g [0.35oz] Magnum - FWH
275g [9.7oz] blend of Citra, Simcoe and Centennial through FO, Whirlpool and Dry, in much the same way as the previous 2 beers.

Bottled 6 days after last dry hop. Racked off into bottling bucket and bulk primed to 2.3 vols

The last beer, which was bottled last night is going to go in here aswell. This is back on the first 3 vessel system, filtered tap water again, metabisulfite in the water to remove chlorine.

Recipe Style: Pale Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: US-05
Yeast Starter: Hydrated
Batch Size: 23L [6g]
Original Gravity: 1.054
Final Gravity: 1.005
ABV: 6.5%
IBU: 35
Boiling Time: 90 Minutes
Color: 7
Fermentation: 12 days at 20C [68F]
Tasting Notes: Soul Crushing
Efficiency: 60%

4kg [8.8lbs] Barrett Burston Pale Malt
2kg [4.4lbs] Bairds Maris Otter
0.65kg [1.43lbs] Joe White Caramel Malt [20L]
200g [7oz] Best Sauermalt

Crazy mash day. Mash was stuck when I tried pulling a sample after 30 minutes. Opening and stirring dropped temperature significantly. Blowing back under the bed a couple times eventually unstuck it. Heated half of the wort to 70C [158F] while stirring constantly, the other half in the mash tun received boiling water to bring it up to 70C [158F] also while stirring constantly. Recombined and started recirc. Sparged at 77C [170F] as per normal.

20g [0.7oz] Magnum- 90 Minutes
30g [1.1oz] Amarillo - Flame Out
60g [2.1oz] Amarillo- When Whirlpool hits 80C [176F]

40g [1.4oz] Simcoe + 50g [1.75oz] Amarillo - Dry Hops split over 2 additions, one when krausen drops, the other 4 days after.

Bottled 5 days after last dry hop. Racked off into bottling bucket and bulk primed to 2.5 vols. Bottled 6 bottles prior to racking off, using carbonation drops and kept them to the side to compare later.

This tasted perfect until 2 days before bottling when I pulled a sample. Last night when I bottled it, it tasted just the same as the rest.


I have tried all I can to try and find what part of the process is doing this. I have 3 fermenters in rotation and a separate one just for bottling out of. I have used different equipment, water supplies, yeasts, hops, everything. Racked off with different hoses, kept fermenters in different areas around the house, one at another persons house [where I brew on the 3 vessel system and use tap water]. We share all of our equipment and brew together constantly. None of his beers during this period have done what mine have done. There is no real difference to any of our techniques, we swap and change fermenters and equipment all the time, just use whatever anyone has around with nothing in it at the time. We share almost all of our grain [Except Base Malts, he has his own bags there, and I have mine at my place] This is the only difference I can find.



Now, tl;dr? What I am wondering, would a bag of grain be making these dusty flavours? It is the same grain I have used forever, the same that him and another guy use, but out of a different batch. I don't know when I opened this bag, but it was close to when I started noticing all of my beers becoming undrinkable and tasting like this. I have tried the process of elimination on absolutely anything and everything I can think of, as outlined in the last 4 beers I have made above, in regards to ingredients, processes, equipment, location. I have searched and found not much on any of my flavour descriptors and what may be causing it. Is there anything else out there that may be causing this? I have made many of beers like these ones previously, but without oats, or with different batches of hops, or different yeasts, or slightly different grain bills, but nothing like the string of crap I have been getting of late.

Any ideas and suggestions will be welcome.

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[m1k3]

How does the base malt taste when you eat it?

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like you're describing oxidation. How old is this beer when you taste it? Any prolonged time spent with a lot of headspace? How do you bottle or package? Any darkening in color or other changes?

 

[ryzaa]

I haven't tried the base malt, and I am away for work for at least the next couple days. It dawned on me while reading through my notes the other day that that was one thing that I hadn't actually changed between each beer.

I don't believe it is oxidised, I typically have between 20 and 30% headspace, and have had one of mine, plus plenty of commercial offerings that are oxidised. No darkening that I am aware of.

Beers go into bottles, using a bottom filler. Nothing about my process has changed. The fermenter sits in the one spot, and that is where I rack it off into a spare container for bottling out of. Lid only gets taken off for the two dry hop additions, which I have previously done as many as 4 dry hop additions over the course of 2 weeks with no issues.

The taste that I keep getting turns up anywhere between a day after fermentation begins and the day that I bottle.

Thanks

 

[brick_haus]

Astringent doesn't fit as a descriptor?

 

[zmanzorro]

I was thinking base malt too. Do you know how fresh it is?

 

[passedpawn]

As the name suggests, I have been having some issues with my beers going very dusty of late. The kind of taste and sensation of walking into a dust storm. Dried out mouth with a kind of dirty, earthy, dusty type of taste to it.

Astringence doesn't fit as a descriptor?

Sounds like astringency. It's the mouthfeel when you put a uncoated aspirin in your mouth.

This is caused by excess tannins being extracted from the grain. Recent thoughts is that this is caused by high pH ( > 6.0), which is caused by over sparging. So, mash starts out at 5.5, and as it's diluted with water during sparging, the pH goes up. People who have sparged more than twice in the chase for efficiency have likely experienced this (me!). Anyhoo, if you're not sparging, that's not likely the problem.

If you're adding gypsum or other water or mash additions (e.g., to increase hoppyness), stop doing that until the problem goes away. In fact, I wouldn't add anything to the water if you're doing that. Just barley, hops, water, yeast, and one of the common fining agents if you do that. I was overdoing it at one time with gypsum and I had a weird mineral earthy flavor from it.

Nice first post Ryan, and welcome to the forum.

 

[ryzaa]

I bought 3 or 4 sacks of the grain about this time last year. All has been stored in the same room, and up until 2 months ago I never had an issue.

I have sparged on some of these, cold water sparged on another and not sparged on one as well. The only mash additions I did were in one of the times I used rain water as my water source [This was also when I cold water sparged]

I regularly check my mash pH with a Milwaukee MW102, using rain water on a light [5 SRM] beer it is around the 5.3-5.4 mark and when using filtered tap water it is typically 5.5 [This is measured at room temperature, 15 minutes after mash in]

Thanks for the comments and recommendations guys. Next brew day I will definitely be swapping out my base malt. I was considering doing some 1 gallon test runs to see if I could pinpoint what part of the process is causing this issue.

I still intend on trying some of the grain on it's own when I am next home and will report back. The thing that I don't understand is that the wort is still sweet. In the fermenter it all still tastes great, it just turns one day. I have been pulling off a bit more trub of late than I remember seeing previously, but the brulosophy guys have shown that they may not be imparting much, if any flavour difference at all.

 

[passedpawn]

I suck all the kettle crap into my fermentor. My beer is fine (my lush neighbor agrees). Problem isn't cold break getting into your fermentor.

 

[fuzzy2133]

I still intend on trying some of the grain on it's own when I am next home and will report back. The thing that I don't understand is that the wort is still sweet. In the fermenter it all still tastes great, it just turns one day. I have been pulling off a bit more trub of late than I remember seeing previously, but the brulosophy guys have shown that they may not be imparting much, if any flavour difference at all.

I think experimental brewing is testing the stale grain idea as we speak.
The grainy/dusty taste sounds similar to a batch got oxidized at bottling I had a few years back.

The flavor changing in the fermenter is very interesting, what are you using in the air lock and any suck back?

 

[hooper]

I would just rename the beers to all start with "Ex Wife's"...like Ex Wife's ESB...etc...

 

[ryzaa]

I have been trying all I can without CO2 to reduce oxygen exposure at every step. I've ordered a bottle so I can start filling headspace with it, but am yet to receive it. My first dry hop always goes in when my beers are about 10 points from terminal gravity, so that active fermentation can help minimise oxygen exposure.

I use a single piece s curve style airlock with methylated spirits in it. I also use metho around the lid when I open and close it, and when I pull a sample out of the tap. On odd occasions I have had some suck back, but I normally pull the airlock and metho the grommet.

 

[ryzaa]

I have since bought a 10kg CO2 bottle so that I can purge everything between transfers. Will probably start the move to some corny kegs to really get rid of any chance of oxidation.

I still don't believe this is an oxidation issue. The previous beers that I have posted about have once again lost the dirty flavour and cleared up. It takes about 3-4 weeks from bottling to this point where it is half drinkable.

Ate some of the base malt I mentioned as well. I have often had a chew on various grains to remind me what they taste like, and can perceive no difference in flavour to what I have previously tried.

Will try and make another beer soon and see what happens I guess

 

[Surfmase]

I am in a similar situation, trying to eliminate off flavors. Dust isn't the first thing that comes to mind for describing my problem, but it's not far off. I'm thinking my problem is oxidation coming from not purging the bottles enough during counter pressure filling (this is new for me). The other thought was that my equipment lets a little bit of grain get into the kettle. I suspect this is not good practice, and am working on fixing it.

Do you have any grain getting in the kettle?

 

[ryzaa]

I generally use a hop blocker when I am sparging, so that all the liquor going in is filtered.

My suspicion was that it was one of my bags of grain. The only consistent thing between the 4 beers that I made that tasted like this was the base malt used. Other than that, I used different hops nearly every time. Different yeast every time. Different water, systems, and fermenters.

So last month I brewed this:
Recipe Style: Pale Ale
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: US-05
Yeast Starter: No
Batch Size: 20L [5.3g]
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV: 5.3%
IBU: 40
Boiling Time: 90 Minutes
Color: 7
Fermentation: 14 days at 10-15C fluctuating [50F-59F]
Tasting Notes: Excellent aroma, a tad too bitter that detracts from the taste a bit. Otherwise quite drinkable
Efficiency: 55%

5kg [11lbs] Simpsons Golden Promise
0.5kg [1.1lbs] Simpsons Golden Naked Oats
0.25kg [9oz] Joe White Wheat

15g [0.5oz] Magnum - 90 minutes
60g [2oz] Galaxy - Flame Out
90g [3oz] Galaxy - Dry Hop

Seeing as this beer has gone into one of the fermenters that produced one of the dusty tasting beers and used hops, yeast, other grains, water, water filter and the system that produced some of the other beers, I am quietly confident that my issue was the grain.

It looks like the chooks in the backyard are going to be happy with a new bag of grain going into their food.

Thanks guys