Beers missing maltiness?

[Desertbrewer]

I have about 10 BIAB brews under my belt, and while they have been getting increasingly better, I've noticed the maltiness of my beers just don't "pop" the way commercial brews do.

I use a 7.5 gallon kettle and for most brews get about 4.5 gallons of first runnings and dunk sparge another 2.5 gallons. Lately I have been mashing high 158-160, to try to achieve more unfermentables. Even with an IPA I recently brewed and mashed at 160, it attenuated down to about 1.008. All my beers attenuate like crazy. I don't pay much attention to the temp of my sparge water and I never do a mashout. Would this be a possible cause?

Another thing is that I don't have a pH meter (the very next thing on my brew gear list). I have used 5.2 stabilizer but I realize it's not a quick fix. Would mash pH be a possible cause for missing maltiness?

On my next brew I'm gonna throw a few ounces of acidulated malt in to see if that does anything. I don't think it's water chemistry because on a couple brews I used RO and built it up... still missing malt punchiness... thoughts?

 

[Sadu]

I have had similar issues in the past, turned out to be a bad thermometer causing me to mash too low. I also don't use a lot of crystal malt in my recipes so combined with low mash temp and good yeast health I was overshooting FG by 6-8 points in some cases.

I don't think sparge temp has much to do with anything, and mashout isn't necessary for BIAB.

You can try a different yeast. S05 attenuates up to 88% for me if the stars are aligned correctly which is normally more than what I want, so I'll sometimes use Denny's Favourite Wy1450 to cap it at around 70-75% and leave something behind. Some people also throw in 5% wheat malt instead of crystal malt to give it some body.

You are gonna get growled at for throwing acid malt into a brew without knowing what your water is. But I have done exactly that with mixed success. The better bet is to spend $20 on a water report if you are able to get one then get help here with your first couple of additions.

 

[casualbrewer]

I suspect your thermometer... Also what styles of beers are you making?

 

[madscientist451]

Choose a commercial beer that has a maltiness that you like and find a good clone recipe. Brew that and see what happens. Pay attention to the particular brand of malt that is called for. Not all malts are the same.
If you like the way it comes out, try a few more malt forward clones and observe how the particular malt used makes a difference. With that experience, you'll be able to craft your own malt-forward recipes.
The attenuation properties of the yeast you are using can also have an effect on perceived maltiness.
What commercial beers are you thinking of that have a maltiness "pop" you are looking for?

 

[Desertbrewer]

I suspect your thermometer... Also what styles of beers are you making?

Could be...

I've made all sorts; IPA, pale ale, stouts, brown... they've been good, again just missing that malt punch, which works well in hoppy beers, but is a bummer in other styles. Particularly in this last batch of stout I made. I mashed at like162, OG was 1.070 and it attenuated down to 1.010, and tastes very dry for a big oatmeal stout with crystal and Munich.

Is there a trick I'm missing to getting temp readings when doing a full volume mash in a bag? Any reco's of a brand of thermometer you guys have found effective?

 

[madscientist451]

Put in the recipe for your last batch of stout.....

 

[billl]

Just to confirm, 162 was the temp of the mash once the grain was stirred in? Or the temp of the water you used to mash in?

 

[Desertbrewer]

Stout recipe:

8lbs- 2 row
3lbs - Light Munich
2lbs- quick oats
1lb- English medium crystal
1.5lb Briess chocolate malt
.75lbs roasted barley

Mashed at 162. Strike water was like 180. Sparge water I think was like 150, but I thought it didn't matter.

.7 oz magnum (90)
1oz northern brewer (30)
"" (15)

San Diego super yeast slurry built up in a 2L starter. Took the beer from 1.070 to 1.010 in 2.5 weeks.

This beer isn't carbed yet so phooey on me if that'll make a huge difference in flavor but I tasted this when bottling alongside a Deschutes Obsidian stout (which I know is a little different) and that beer has an intense melanoidin character that mine just lacks. Can't see why, because I put in the Munich and crystal to try to attain that maltiness. Mine also comes across as drier. All of my beers seem dry no matter what my grain bill is and what temp I mash at.

On this recipe I didn't do anything to my water except for treating chloramines with campden and adding a few grams each of CaCl and gypsum. My local water is groundwater, and so it has a lot of residual alkalinity, which I'd assume would be good for roasty stouts.

 

[PADave]

First thing to do, put your thermometer in ice water and see what it reads.

 

[TheMadKing]

Trying thickening your mash. Thinner mash results in a more fermentable wort even at higher temps. So if you mash at more of a conventional water/grist ratio, you may get better results.

I'm also attempting my first biab double decoction mash on Saturday. I'm hoping that it will improve the maltiness of my Munich SMaSH Dunkel.

 

[Biscuits]

Seems like there are a lot of variables to this equation. I do full volume BIAB and I love malty beers so it was priority for me to get it right. The solution, for me, was mashing high...around 158-159 and making sure my pH was 5.4-5.8 (room temp). That pH 5.2 stuff is snake oil, get rid of it. Download Bru'n water, get a water report or use Distilled / RO water and build your water accordingly.

Just my $0.02

 

[Desertbrewer]

Trying thickening your mash. Thinner mash results in a more fermentable wort even at higher temps. So if you mash at more of a conventional water/grist ratio, you may get better results.

I'm also attempting my first biab double decoction mash on Saturday. I'm hoping that it will improve the maltiness of my Munich SMaSH Dunkel.

I've been wondering that for a while, but with so many full volume mashers here, I assumed it didn't have a bearing on flavor. Have you tested this variable with BIAB?

Good luck, would be good to hear how that turns out. Maltiness is critical to that style for sure. Just had Weihenstephan Dunkel the other day; so frickin good.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've been wondering that for a while, but with so many full volume mashers here, I assumed it didn't have a bearing on flavor. Have you tested this variable with BIAB?

Good luck, would be good to hear how that turns out. Maltiness is critical to that style for sure. Just had Weihenstephan Dunkel the other day; so frickin good.

Well a mash temp of 162 on my system would be nearly unfermentable I think, so I agree that your thermometer is suspect.

And thanks! I'll let you know how it turns out. For the record I always full volume mash, but I usually make hoppy beers so I haven't noticed whether or not they are lacking maltiness until I made a pilsner this year. It was good but had muted flavors and didn't have that crisp maltiness I was after. A Vienna lager also didn't turn out, so that's why I'm trying a SMaSH and a decoction mash to try and pinpoint the issue.

 

[casualbrewer]

Try a different yeast. Some yeasts tend to mask malt flavor and attenuate too much.

 

[ChelisHubby]

After you check the thermometer then change the yeast to something English. and ferment it cool, dont use nottinham as it attenuates to much.

 

[Mer-man]

Try a different yeast. Some yeasts tend to mask malt flavor and attenuate too much.

Like WLP090

 

[tomaso]

I've had a similar problem (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=545300) and am now very happy with my malty brews. Some things that worked for me:

.) Used to leave my pot on the stove during the mash which resulted in a higher mash temp and lower FG = thinner beer; took pot off the stove and FG is on the spot;

.)longer boil times (90-120mins) to get more of a melanoidin character. I boiled a bock for two hours and it turned out super malty and sweet

.)add the right specialty malts; I find some higher crystal malts to impart a nice malty character; melanoidin malt, aromatic malt; I found out that I don't like the character I get from lower Crystal malts

Hope it's useful

 

[JonM]

Another vote for 2x checking your thermometer. If it is FUBAR, there are some reasonably priced good thermometers from Thermoworks. (If you cook a lot, I'd highly recommend splurging in the Thermapen).

And another hearty vote for throwing out the 5.2 stabilizer. It doesn't do what it purports to do and is basically useless.

I see your stout recipe has some Munich. Do other recipes have Munich or Vienna? Adding one or both of those is a great way to add maltiness even at lower mash temps. I regularly make an altbier that is 50/50 Munich and Pilsner and it is insanely malty even when mashed at 150° F.

If you want to try less attenuative yeasts, WLP002/Wyeast 1968 are good but they take some TLC. 1728 is also good but it likes to be fermented cool.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've had a similar problem (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=545300) and am now very happy with my malty brews. Some things that worked for me:

.) Used to leave my pot on the stove during the mash which resulted in a higher mash temp and lower FG = thinner beer; took pot off the stove and FG is on the spot;

.)longer boil times (90-120mins) to get more of a melanoidin character. I boiled a bock for two hours and it turned out super malty and sweet

.)add the right specialty malts; I find some higher crystal malts to impart a nice malty character; melanoidin malt, aromatic malt; I found out that I don't like the character I get from lower Crystal malts

Hope it's useful

Glad to hear about your boils, that means my decoction mash should yield the results I'm after

 

[brew_darrymore]

.) Used to leave my pot on the stove during the mash which resulted in a higher mash temp and lower FG = thinner beer; took pot off the stove and FG is on the spot;

Hope it's useful

Did you mean higher mash temp = higher FG?

 

[Desertbrewer]

Checked my thermometer last night with ice water and with boiling water (I live at sea level). It isn't the best thermometer, I do need a better one. But it was within +/-2 degrees on the hot and cold end.

Good tips with the yeast choice... hadn't paid much mind to it before but it makes sense. Wishing I had used an English yeast on my stout now.

Glad to hear others have addressed and found some solutions to this issue in their homebrewing as well. Better thermometer, mash pH and yeast strain choice might get me where I need to go.

 

[craigmw]

Can you get a water report from your local water company? If it's very hard water, there could be an issue. It would be worth reading up about how water can impact mash efficiency (fermentability) and flavor, as this can certainly be an issue. We have very hard water, and I ended up getting an RO system that has significantly improved the flavor profiles of my beer. I often mix RO water with a smaller proportion of our local tap water and get pretty close. I fix the final mash pH with an acid addition (in my case, 85% phosphoric acid, but lactic is often preferred). I sometimes also throw in a bit of CaCl2 to adjust the Cl:SO4 ratio. In any event, there is a reasonable chance that your brewing water could be the culprit. Check out Bru'n Water (an Excel spreadsheet) that really does a nice job of calculating all of the water calculations based on your source water and grain bill.

 

[jfrank85]

I started using lactic acid in my mash (8.2pH tap) and the results have been great. We recently brewed a beer we had done a while back, same recipe and all, and it was way more malt forward. I think we were trying to compensate for thinness by adding munich and other malty....um....malts, and with the change, it really made a difference. We definitely dial back on them now.

 

[tomaso]

Did you mean higher mash temp = higher FG?

Oh, that's right well spotted.

 

[Mer-man]

I recommend an English strain. I just tasted a bottle of an IPA (85% Pils, 5% Munich, rest crystal) I mashed at 66C and fermented with WY1968 down to 1.011.
Once the hop flavour washes over the palette, the maltiness comes through and is quite nice.

 

[Desertbrewer]

Got Bru'n Water... (why didn't I already have it?!). This is the first batch of beer I've brewed where I was able to consider my tap water for mash pH, which I used acid malt to adjust, and mineral additions. English pale ale is fermenting away and will see how the malt flavor is in a week or so. Thanks guys

 

[MVKTR2]

I'm guessing a few things might be going on. pH is certainly worth looking into. Specifically it's noteworthy as a part of your overall mash/beer chemistry and residual alkalinity which determines so much of how your mash acts and the resulting beer.!Im no expert in this area, still learning it myself with less than 20 batches adjusting my own water.

With that in mind you might try targeting Edinburgh water profile the next time you build water.

From a grist standpoint biscuit/victory malt is your friend to bringing maltiness forward in lighter brews. Amber malt is GREAT at adding maltiness in a variety of brews as is special roast in darker beers like stout you mentioned.

Finally the first thing to do is check/calibrate your thermometer and go ahead and buy another $7 from a big box store to double check yourself.