Beer Release and Tasting: How much is too much?

[bukwas_brew]

So we are having a keg release on April 12. We are having more and more people attend and have been running out of beer before everyone gets a glass. I.E: last time we had 3 beers, everyone go a red cup and tasted all 3 beers, however not everyone (late comers) didn't get one beer cause it ran out. What would be a good solution to this? We do $10 donations for brewing support. So far we are thinking of doing a $5 donation for 4 or 5 tickets which you can use for whatever beers you want, however the glasses will be testers. Any advice? Thanks!

 

[sparkshooter]

Maybe I'm supposed to know this, but are you a professional brewer?

A required "donation" for "tickets" is playing cute with a law that is serious about preventing unlicensed sale and distribution of beer. I'm not saying that you will get caught or prosecuted, because clearly you are small fish, but don't think that this "donation" system is legal.

 

[Teromous]

Is this like an actual release or a faux release. For a real release, most of the time people get short pours for samples or they can buy pints, bottles, or growler fills. It really depends on the brewery and how many people there are. For a faux release party, you can't earn money, accept donations, or sell tickets. In this instance I would recommend having people sign up to bring different types of food, like a potluck.

 

[bukwas_brew]

So there is absolutely no way to accept $ for anything "legally"?

 

[kombat]

So there is absolutely no way to accept $ for anything "legally"?

Sure there is - get a TTB and become a licensed brewery.

 

[pointcity-homebrew]

sure there are loop holes, if you want to stick your neck out that far.

For instance, you can sell the cup and the beer is free. Perfectly legal everywhere that I know to sell a cup.

 

[Arrheinous]

Bukwas Brewing of Maryland?
https://www.facebook.com/events/223855171117625/?ref=22
https://twitter.com/Bukwas_Beer

Looks like you all are having fun. Good work.

 

[broadbill]

Legalities of selling beer aside, this sort of thing can cause you big headaches from an insurance standpoint. Say someone slips and falls on some of the beer you are pouring, and they sue....who gets sued?

Even if you are doing things legally, you might want to get event insurance to cover stuff like this, especially if one/all of you have significant assets to protect.

 

[Danno355]

Yea I agree this is crossing the line. Im sure you are not the only one doing this. I believe this would be considered "selling" your homebrew by TTB and using FB to announce it.
This is from the Federal TTB http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml.
As you search through you will find the following under BOP guidelines

• Adults may produce beer for personal or family use without payment of tax.
• Adults are defined as 18 years of age or older (or the age required for the purchase of beer in the locality of the BOP).
• Adults may produce, without payment of tax, per household, up to 100 gallons per calendar year if there is one adult residing in the household, or 200 gallons of beer per year if there are two or more adults residing in the household.
• Adults who produce beer at a BOP may remove their beer for personal or family use, including use in organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions (such as homemaker's contests or tastings).
• Adults may collaborate with other adults in the production of beer at a BOP provided they are not considered a corporation or an association.
• Adults may not produce beer for sale or offer their beer for sale.

I do call your attention to the next to last bullet. I think collaboration could be argued if you and your friends came up with a list you all wanted to brew and drink and everyone chipped in for supplies resulting in a party upon completion. Just pay attention to the last line. You may not make a profit selling homebrew. Tread carefully and consider the potential impact on your fellow homebrewers.

 

[Phunhog]

Yeah...you have to be careful on how you word things. Give the beer away for free BUT sell brewery merchandise (hats, shirts, stickers, etc.) to make up the costs. As long you don't say something along the lines of "IF you BUY a shirt you get FREE BEER" you will be okay. The cup argument doesn't work.....think of a college party. Brewery merch is nice too since people can buy it as gifts and it is also advertising for your brewery.

 

[bukwas_brew]

So selling merch is okay to cover costs? And I just wish there was some legal way to get $ back from these beer releases without being a full blown brewery...cause that costs a ton.

 

[Yooper]

So selling merch is okay to cover costs? And I just wish there was some legal way to get $ back from these beer releases without being a full blown brewery...cause that costs a ton.

Not really. That would be pushing it, depending on where you lived and how the officials interpret the law in your area.

In some states, the laws are more liberal about selling merchandise and even donating homebrew to things like fundraisers (as currently is legal in California), but it most states having any sort of charge for any sort of homebrew event at all puts it into the "illegal" category.

In many states, it's illegal to actually take the homebrew out of the home in which it was brewed- so I couldn't even bring a growler of beer over to your house legally to share with you in one of those states, let alone a keg!

In Michigan, you used to be able to gift one 6 pack per year to an individual but now that has changed and you can gift something like 20 gallons per year.

Check with the laws of your state, but it is definitely true that in ALL states, selling homebrew is illegal. Selling a cup that holds beer is also illegal, as any requirement to purchase anything to attend an event makes it a sale.

Accepting $10 "donations" is also illegal, as it constitute selling homebrew.

 

[Danno355]

Just check your state regulations as well as the TTB. Those regs will spell out what you can do in the presence of beer in your state. But selling your brew is just a no-go my friend. Seriously, if you want to make money to cover the costs then brew commercially. Get a business plan together, save your pennies, go to kickstarter and raise some money. Heck just start a Nano in a small industrial warehouse if you want to do small batches on the weekend/weeknights have zero social life and keep your day job. (Just kidding Nano guys!) Homebrew is not a fundraiser lol. That's what terrible tasting candy is for!

 

[Phunhog]

So selling merch is okay to cover costs? And I just wish there was some legal way to get $ back from these beer releases without being a full blown brewery...cause that costs a ton.

I would say so....there certainly isn't a law against selling t-shirts....regardless of what it says on it or where it is sold. I have been doing this exact thing for a few years. Now you aren't going to get rich....I made right around 300 bucks last year. However that is 300 dollars that goes to buy more ingredients. Like I said the key is to not make it a "this for that" type of transaction. I have sold t-shirts to people who I have never met, let alone tasted my beer. They just dig my logo.

 

[Flipadelphia]

Laws suck.

 

[Riot]

Reading this thread makes me feel really bad for almost everyone on this site. I was taking a whole lot of things for granted living under Canadian law. No limit per household, gifts are not a government concern other than supplying minors, and you can definitely sell tshirts if you want. You definitely can't just sell beer unlicensed however, tickets or cash. That is a serious tax revenue concern.

 

[Phunhog]

In CA it is currently legal to donate beer to a non-brewing related non-profit. They can then sell the beer and make some money in the process. A new bill is currently going through CA legislature that would allow BREWING related non-profit's to do the same thing up to 2x a year. IF I read the legislation right a homebrewer could start a brewing related non profit and legally sell beer 2x a year. Of course all profits would have to go back to the non profit but since it is brewing related I would think it could be used for equipment/ingredients.

 

[Hello]

Yeah, what you're doing is totally illegal but to answer your question, use 2-6 ounce pours. If you have 5-5 gallon kegs and 32 people who have joined the event thus far, you can do 6 ounce pours and have leftovers for seconds.

Time to perhaps get your papers in order and turn the garage brewery name into an actual brewery. At the very least.

 

[kombat]

I was taking a whole lot of things for granted living under Canadian law. [...] gifts are not a government concern other than supplying minors

Be careful - it depends on where in Canada you are. Liquor laws are a provincial jurisdiction, and some provinces have some more onerous regulations than others.

In Ontario, for example, I wouldn't say "gifts are not a government concern" when referencing alcohol. If you "gift" alcohol to someone, you assume a degree of liability for their actions. In fact, in Ontario, if you have a party at your house, and someone overindulges - EVEN IF IT'S ON ALCOHOL THEY BROUGHT THEMSELVES - then they go and drive drunk and kill someone, you can be held legally responsible. I can only assume you would be even more culpable if they'd gotten drunk off of alcohol supplied by you instead.

 

[Zamial]

So you want to come closer to even than giving homebrew away? Here is how it is done legally and it even CYA in many instances of injury/overindulgence.

Start a homebrew club. Make it a non-profit. Open a club bank account. Charge dues. Sell merchandise (Put rules in place that all members must be wearing club shirts/colors at meetings and all homebrew needs to be poured into club branded glasses typically sample sized). Get insurance. Hold meetings. Do the minutes/business side of meetings 1st then move to tasting where members bring a keg and are reimbursed by the club for ingredients (commonly 10-20 dollars and member must bring receipts/invoices for ingredients). Encourage members to bring in 6ers for tasting/critique that is NOT reimbursed.

Your wish is granted.

Upside your club can also hold competitions that also feed the bank account and when you get a comp that is advertised nationally and is BJCP sanctioned then you get people to send you beer to judge.

 

[Arrheinous]

That's a solid plan for a homebrew club.

Throw in that some clubs pool together equipment to build a decent sized brewing rig and you've got a nanobrewery co-op at your disposal.

 

[bukwas_brew]

Does anyone have ballpark costs for starting a nano? I've looked into it but it just seems like we could never get enough $$$ to brew. I've heard about renting time at an est. brewery to brew your product then you'd be able to sell it (assuming you have those permits). SO what say you?

 

[Zamial]

Does anyone have ballpark costs for starting a nano? I've looked into it but it just seems like we could never get enough $$$ to brew. I've heard about renting time at an est. brewery to brew your product then you'd be able to sell it (assuming you have those permits). SO what say you?

At this point you are on the wrong website. Please go to www.probrewer.com and field all questions about going pro.

 

[Danno355]

Def go to pro brewer but to answer your question I priced out a nano in my city at $45k to start up on a 3 bbl system, keeping my day job and opening the taps 2 weeknights and weekends. Figure a total operating cost for your first year around $80-100k. Your not going to make much money on a nano this way but you will work hard and have fun! Whi knows? Maybe that nano will grow up into a craft brewery. Lots of info out there on nano start up.

 

[Clonefan94]

Reading this thread makes me feel really bad for almost everyone on this site. I was taking a whole lot of things for granted living under Canadian law. No limit per household, gifts are not a government concern other than supplying minors, and you can definitely sell tshirts if you want. You definitely can't just sell beer unlicensed however, tickets or cash. That is a serious tax revenue concern.

I am not speaking legally here as I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one. Everything I have read about my local laws and those of the Feds here in the US, just seem to be based on keeping you from selling your homebrew or producing such large quantities that what you are doing could be a bit sketchy.

I don't like a lot of laws, but I also don't have a problem with those that try to protect the companies that did things the lawful way and got their licenses.

Also, I'm not opposed to the government having a set of standards set up that you must follow if you are selling me something that I am going to consume.

Sorry, rereading my post, I don't mean to sound like an ass or a goody two shoes, I just wanted to say the laws really aren't that bad for hobby level brewing, which this is meant to be. I brew a lot and drink a lot yet still haven't come close to hitting 200 gallons for my wife and I in a year.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I am not speaking legally here as I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one. Everything I have read about my local laws and those of the Feds here in the US, just seem to be based on keeping you from selling your homebrew or producing such large quantities that what you are doing could be a bit sketchy.

I don't like a lot of laws, but I also don't have a problem with those that try to protect the companies that did things the lawful way and got their licenses.

Also, I'm not opposed to the government having a set of standards set up that you must follow if you are selling me something that I am going to consume.

Sorry, rereading my post, I don't mean to sound like an ass or a goody two shoes, I just wanted to say the laws really aren't that bad for hobby level brewing, which this is meant to be. I brew a lot and drink a lot yet still haven't come close to hitting 200 gallons for my wife and I in a year.

I think the only difference between our Canadian friend's law and ours is household maximums. We can give it away, we can sell shirts, and we can't sell beer without a lisence. Difference? Household maximums....ANYONE...EVER...at this site seen this law enforced?

Other factors: homebrew supply cost and availability. I think it's pretty even really...neither country gets the "utopia" designation.

 

[Clonefan94]

I think the only difference between our Canadian friend's law and ours is household maximums. We can give it away, we can sell shirts, and we can't sell beer without a lisence. Difference? Household maximums....ANYONE...EVER...at this site seen this law enforced?

Other factors: homebrew supply cost and availability. I think it's pretty even really...neither country gets the "utopia" designation.

I can't imagine how they would enforce it without someone being a complete fool. Selling vast quantities, advertising you are selling, etc. I brew for fun myself. It's a hobby, just like any other and I treat it as such. I also like to race slot cars, I don't look at my track and think, "How can I make money off of this" That's not it's purpose. It's purpose is to help me not think about working.

Definitely from watching a bit of CraigTube, I wouldn't want to deal with trying to find supplies in Canada though, that's for sure. Seems like everything is pretty expensive and hard to come by up there. I have a lot of stores within 20 miles of me and one about 5 minutes from my house, but I live in a pretty populous area. Even so though, I know a brewer in rural Iowa that doesn't seem to struggle at all to find supplies at a fair price.

For me the 200 gallon limit is pretty easy to stick to, since I would have to work really hard and drink way too much to get to that amount.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I can't imagine how they would enforce it without someone being a complete fool. Selling vast quantities, advertising you are selling, etc. I brew for fun myself. It's a hobby, just like any other and I treat it as such. I also like to race slot cars, I don't look at my track and think, "How can I make money off of this" That's not it's purpose. It's purpose is to help me not think about working.

Definitely from watching a bit of CraigTube, I wouldn't want to deal with trying to find supplies in Canada though, that's for sure. Seems like everything is pretty expensive and hard to come by up there. I have a lot of stores within 20 miles of me and one about 5 minutes from my house, but I live in a pretty populous area. Even so though, I know a brewer in rural Iowa that doesn't seem to struggle at all to find supplies at a fair price.

For me the 200 gallon limit is pretty easy to stick to, since I would have to work really hard and drink way too much to get to that amount.

If I've ever exceeded the 200G limit, I'd defy anyone to prove it. I've certainly never had 200G of beer on hand at any one time...well, not since we threw an 8 kegger in college anyway..but that wasn't hombrew and there were probably some other legal infractions that night.

 

[PintoBean]

Def go to pro brewer but to answer your question I priced out a nano in my city at $45k to start up on a 3 bbl system, keeping my day job and opening the taps 2 weeknights and weekends. Figure a total operating cost for your first year around $80-100k. Your not going to make much money on a nano this way but you will work hard and have fun! Whi knows? Maybe that nano will grow up into a craft brewery. Lots of info out there on nano start up.

Just opened our 15 bbl brewery today...Our total cost was @$410k. We did every ounce of work ourselves. Contractors would have more than doubled that cost.

And yes, everything the OP is doing is illegal. There's really no way around it either, even through merchandise, etc. Probably never get busted though. Just don't advertise and be careful.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[jbaysurfer]

Just opened our 15 bbl brewery today...Our total cost was @$410k. We did every ounce of work ourselves. Contractors would have more than doubled that cost.

And yes, everything the OP is doing is illegal. There's really no way around it either, even through merchandise, etc. Probably never get busted though. Just don't advertise and be careful.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

Congrats man. That's a ton of work you've done!

 

[Renoun]

Here's a blog post at Beervana Buzz describing somebody's homebrew speakeasy shutting down after getting busted following publicity in the local alt-weekly. I'd hardly consider Portland, OR as being a locality where the authorities are out to get home brewers but actions have consequences and in this case the state liquor authority made it clear that it was time to shut down. At least the brewer isn't currently facing charges or dealing with less sympathetic federal authorities.

 

[Ayuir]

Just opened our 15 bbl brewery today...Our total cost was @$410k. We did every ounce of work ourselves. Contractors would have more than doubled that cost.

And yes, everything the OP is doing is illegal. There's really no way around it either, even through merchandise, etc. Probably never get busted though. Just don't advertise and be careful.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

Congratulations! and best of luck.

 

[Danno355]

Just opened our 15 bbl brewery today...Our total cost was @$410k. We did every ounce of work ourselves. Contractors would have more than doubled that cost.

And yes, everything the OP is doing is illegal. There's really no way around it either, even through merchandise, etc. Probably never get busted though. Just don't advertise and be careful.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

Awesome! $410k is amazing. I've been working on my financials for a couple of weeks. Hope be funded and opening first 1/2 of 2015. Best of luck to you!

 

[Teromous]

Awesome! $410k is amazing. I've been working on my financials for a couple of weeks. Hope be funded and opening first 1/2 of 2015. Best of luck to you!

Where are you planning to open up?

 

[Danno355]

Where are you planning to open up?

Southeastern VA. Still keeping the actual city close hold for a few more months while we finalize our equipment, build-out, permits and zero in on an opening month. It's a terrifying rush lol

 

[Hello]

Just opened our 15 bbl brewery today...Our total cost was @$410k. We did every ounce of work ourselves. Contractors would have more than doubled that cost.

And yes, everything the OP is doing is illegal. There's really no way around it either, even through merchandise, etc. Probably never get busted though. Just don't advertise and be careful.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

Well he seems to advertise enough. It will only take one misstep though. It is a shame because I don't think the law against selling homebrew is put there to protect people as much as it is there to control the tax on alcohol.

 

[tagz]

He's definitely advertising through Facebook and twitter. And, based on the increasing popularity of his release parties, it's just a matter of time before someone in authority finds out.

 

[Phunhog]

He's definitely advertising through Facebook and twitter. And, based on the increasing popularity of his release parties, it's just a matter of time before someone in authority finds out.

He shouldn't be doing or at least he shouldn't be advertising that he is doing it. However if/when the authorites do find out I seriously doubt anything will happen. Something like this is such a low priority. I was reading about homebrewing before it became legal. Guys like Papazian were openly homebrewing. In the book it talks about how they almost hoped that got busted because it would show how absolutely ridiculous some of the homebrewing laws were/are. Then they could get some media coverage and support for a law change. Something like that recently happened in CA. Homebrewers/homewinemakers had been hosting a charity festival for something like 30 years.......all the time it being illegal. Well someone at the ABC decided to press the issue and shut them down. The homebrewers went to their local politicians and got the law changed. I doubt it ever would have happened without the "bust".

 

[ktblunden]

Here's a blog post at Beervana Buzz describing somebody's homebrew speakeasy shutting down after getting busted following publicity in the local alt-weekly. I'd hardly consider Portland, OR as being a locality where the authorities are out to get home brewers but actions have consequences and in this case the state liquor authority made it clear that it was time to shut down. At least the brewer isn't currently facing charges or dealing with less sympathetic federal authorities.

I wondered how long that would take after all the publicity it got.

 

[Teromous]

Southeastern VA. Still keeping the actual city close hold for a few more months while we finalize our equipment, build-out, permits and zero in on an opening month. It's a terrifying rush lol

Pungo?

It would be cool to have some more breweries in the Hampton Roads area.