Beer Philosophy - What is it about homebrewing...
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jordanpace
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simply put, more flavor...
Good question. I think it has something to do with the large variety of flavors and textures that people experience when they start sampling something different. It could be the pride people have when they create a tasty beer at home, all on their own.
FWIW - I fondly remember drinking a few Michelob Lights while stalking sparrows in my friend's old barn. Good times. I doubt I'd enjoy one today...
FWIW - I fondly remember drinking a few Michelob Lights while stalking sparrows in my friend's old barn. Good times. I doubt I'd enjoy one today...
gr8shandini
Well-Known Member
I think you got the relationship backwards. I can't speak for everyone, but I'd guess that most people got into homebrewing because they love good beer. I don't know of many who started brewing Bud Light clones then discovered good beer.
Besides, if BMCs are your thing, why brew? It's quite a lot of work (especially to do one of those correctly) and you're probably losing money considering that you can buy a 30 pack for 12 or 15 bucks.
Besides, if BMCs are your thing, why brew? It's quite a lot of work (especially to do one of those correctly) and you're probably losing money considering that you can buy a 30 pack for 12 or 15 bucks.
stageseven
Well-Known Member
I would imagine it would be a very discouraging hobby for anyone trying to make a macro-style light lager. That's probably the single most difficult style to brew successfully, so for a beginner just trying to make that stuff themselves both the cost of the equipment needed to do it, and the likely terrible results they would get at least the first few tries would be off-putting. So in other words, the people who would possibly want to homebrew to make a "great light lager" would't last too long in the hobby unless they branched out into other styles. You do see people on here talk every once in awhile about it being a guilty pleasure for them to toss back a few (fill in the blank) lights after mowing the lawn or something. I personally think it's about the most disgusting thing you can drink, but that's neither here nor there.
rycov
Well-Known Member
i keep seeing that these styles are hard to brew. whats the reason behind this? it seems like it would be pretty easy to brew ****y beer. - go light on the barley, add crap like rice and corn, use old hops- im not arguing with you i just don't know why it would be hard and im curious (i wouldnt know because i never tried, and why would i?) plus it would be cheaper to buy it. but my point is, why is it hard to brew these?
For the same reason the great chefs of the world don't have long discourses on McDonald's. It's food, sort of, but no one will claim it's gourmet.
Same with macrobrews. It's beer, but no one will claim it's gourmet.
Now, I love McDonald's sometimes! Having some junk food has it's place. But no one will claim it should be in Zagat's.
And I love some macrobrews, too. Have a few Stella Artois or a few Coronas on the beach is great. That doesn't make them craft beers, though.
Same with macrobrews. It's beer, but no one will claim it's gourmet.
Now, I love McDonald's sometimes! Having some junk food has it's place. But no one will claim it should be in Zagat's.
And I love some macrobrews, too. Have a few Stella Artois or a few Coronas on the beach is great. That doesn't make them craft beers, though.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
You're not alone there... I'd rather have something full bodied, that's not low cal. to drink... Granted, I've not had to mow a lawn in many years.
One of the great things, for me, about home brewing is that I'm able to get beer as I want/like it. Not as someone at some brewery decided to make. Granted there are still a few brews that are close to my heart. I do enjoy a good Guinness when I can get one (not as easy as one might think). Some brew pubs have good stuff on tap, just make sure you get the style that you like from them. Now that I'm home brewing, I have a better understanding of what's available at brew pubs (when they tell you what they have on tap)...
This past summer (third Thursday in July) I was fortunate to go to a user group meeting up in Maine that included having a lobster bake at a brew pub (after the regular meeting was over)... Went for their pub pale ale, which was really good. Strong too, much better than what you'll typically find from larger breweries (like Sam Adams even)... A few pints of that and I had to stop, since I was driving... Looking forward to going back again in July of this year. I was able to talk with a friend that I found out home brews, as well as talk with the guy that runs the brewery at the pub... That planted the seed, in my mind, to start brewing my own... A few months later and I was brewing.
rycov
Well-Known Member
arent off flavors part of that style? (just kidding (sort of(not really))) but really is it just that? you couldn't hide off flavors? what if you didn't have any? isn't there some other reason it would be difficult to brew, or is that it?
mixedbrewer
Well-Known Member
I love any and all beer. Watery macro, yep, cheapy corn lager, yep, craft, yep, homebrew, yep. I brew because I can. Even if they dont taste good, I still love em. Tasting a bad beer is enjoyable to me. I like to pick it apart and examine it. No matter what kind of beer it is, I like it. Of course I think some taste better than others, but that doesn't stop me from drinking what I can.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Thats basically all my friend. Get good ingredients (Budweiser does not use 'old hops' they just use less quantity), mash at the perfect temperature for the perfect amount of time, pitch the perfect amount of yeast, ferment at a perfect temperature, lager at a perfect temperature and amount of time, carbonate to the perfect level, and you have yourself a beer you could have picked up for 50 cents on wing night.
That is my reason for homebrewing. I love making a beer custom designed to my palate. Before I was aware of commercial milk stouts, I drank Guiness because I like the roasted flavor from stout but thought the finish of Guiness was a little dry for me. So I did a milk stout and fell in love with it.
The big BMC brewers have implemented a lot of cost cutting measures over time to reach the products they now have today. It's not that people were craving light lagers back then, but the American lager evolved (de-evolved might be more appropriate) towards substituting barley for rice and corn. The same goes with hops. At the industrial levels, when you can get away with using few hops which translates into cutting tons of hops out of your batches, then that's good business for keeping the profit margins high. Now combine this beer recipe evolution with a really good marketing campaign, and then you can basically tell people what good beer is like and over time, people will start believing you. It didn't help that craft beer disappeared for a long long time after prohibition. 50 years ago, there were no other options to compare macro brew with so people's taste began to change.
However, if you look at the classic American pilsner, the one that was most likely brewed before prohibition, that stuff uses very little corn and rice and is hopped with the very rustic tasting cluster hops. That style of beer was the lawnmower beer of its days, but probably would send chills down today's hardcore BMC drinkers' backs.
I'm one of those who likes light lagers especially on a warm summer day after working hard outside. But the light lagers I'm speaking of are not the typical light BMC that most drink. For me, a good light lager is more like 10lbs of 2-row, enough Saaz or Hallertauer for 20-25 IBUs and some for aroma and a nice clean lager fermentation to end up with crisp lager at the end. Light, crisp and refreshing, but infinitely more flavorful than light BMC. So I would never bother brewing BMC clones, but a classic (read old school) light lager for sure. Like most people in the homebrewing hobby, I brew for flavor, not for profit.
However, if you look at the classic American pilsner, the one that was most likely brewed before prohibition, that stuff uses very little corn and rice and is hopped with the very rustic tasting cluster hops. That style of beer was the lawnmower beer of its days, but probably would send chills down today's hardcore BMC drinkers' backs.
I'm one of those who likes light lagers especially on a warm summer day after working hard outside. But the light lagers I'm speaking of are not the typical light BMC that most drink. For me, a good light lager is more like 10lbs of 2-row, enough Saaz or Hallertauer for 20-25 IBUs and some for aroma and a nice clean lager fermentation to end up with crisp lager at the end. Light, crisp and refreshing, but infinitely more flavorful than light BMC. So I would never bother brewing BMC clones, but a classic (read old school) light lager for sure. Like most people in the homebrewing hobby, I brew for flavor, not for profit.
This is SO historically inaccurate, and has so long since been disproven that it is ridiculous that people still buy this BS.....This myth that we beer geeks have been rubbing like kinky butter all over to make us feel SO superior to "the stupid BMC drinkers" was blown out of the water by Maureen Ogle in her book Ambitious Brew.
When Bud came out with it's corn and rice adjuncts, that you claim cut the costs, it was the most expensive beer on the market in the US.
Maureen Ogle , in her book Ambitious Brew, cleared up a lot of those "beer myths" that we beer snobs used to harbor to "keep us warm" and to somehow make us think that we're better than those who drink Bud products.....
America like most of the world had quite an extensive array of beers available prior to the German Invasion of brewer's which later introduced the light lager. They pretty much had the "brewing culture" of all the countries that people immigrated from...Most English beer styles..you know Porters, Stouts, Partigyles, stuff like that. As well as mostly heavy German Styles of beer. Not to mention people from Scotland, Ireland, Russia and other places where beer was drank.
Remember up until then, beer was food.
In fact thew whole history of the light lager is the American populace's (not the brewer's) desire to have a lighter beer to drink, which forced the German brewers to look at adding adjuncts like corn and rice...not as the popular homebrewer's myth has been to make money by peddling and "inferior commercial product" by adding adjuncts, but in order to come up with a style of beer that the American people wanted.
Maureen Ogle proved that in Ambitious Brew it actually made the cost of a bottle of Budweiser cost around 17.00/bottle in today's dollars. Gee I've paid 17 dollars for a bomber of beer before...not too much difference there, eh?
When AH released Budweiser with it's corn and rice adjuncts in the 1860's it was the most expensive beer out there; a single bottle retailed for $1.00 (what would equal in today's Dollars for $17.00) this was quite difference when a schooner of beer usually cost a nickel.
This is the part that blows the "cost cutting" argument out of the water. In order to use those adjuncts you have to process them separately from the rest of the mash, and then add it to the mash. You either have to do a cereal mash to pr-gelatinize them or you have to roll them with heat to make them flaked...either way, besides the labor and energy involved to grow and harvest those plants, you expend labor and energy to make them usuable. You have to boil them in a cereal mash. That's another couple hours of labor and energy involved in the cost of the product.
It wasn't done to save money, it was done because heavy beers (both english style Ales and the heavier Bavarian malty beers) were not being drunk by American consumers any more. Beer initally was seen around the world as food (some even called it liquid bread), but since America, even in the 1800's was a prosperous nation compared to the rest of the world, and americans ate meat with nearly every meal, heavy beers had fallen out of favor...
And American 6-row Barley just made for heavy, hazy beer.
The American populace ate it up!
The market WAS in a sense, craving light lagers...The German brewers didn't want to make the switch. They were perfectly happy with their bocks and all those other great heavy German Beers. But the rest of us weren't into it.
Bush and other German Brewers started looking at other styles of Beers, and came upon Karl Balling and Anton Schwartz's work at the Prague Polytechnic Institute with the Brewers in Bohemia who when faced with a grain shortage started using adjuncts, which produced the pils which was light, sparkly and fruity tasting...just the thing for American tastebuds.
So the brewers brought Schwartz to America where he went to work for American Brewer Magazine writing articles and technical monographs, teaching American brewers how to use Rice and Corn...
The sad moral of the story is....The big corporate brewers did not foist tasteless adjunct laced fizzy water on us, like the popular mythology all of us beersnobs like to take to bed with us to feel all warm and elitist....it was done because our American ancestors wanted it.
Blame your grandfather for having lousy taste in beer, NOT the brewers themselves. Like everything in business, they had to change or die.
Maureen Ogle's book Ambitious Brew is the best and most historically accurate of American Beer History books out there. I can't recommend it enough.
It a dose of reality. I used to believe the same stuff you all did until I read it. It's kinda humbling to realize we're NOT "the pawns of an evil corporate empire" after all.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0151010129/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Her blog archive has a lot of material covering the imbev takeover or Anheiseur Bush as well as stuff that didin't make it into here original book, so I encourage you to dig through that as well.
http://maureenogle.com/blog/
It clears up a lot of stuff like this, and busts a ton of myths like this one.
Listen to this from Basic Brewing;
BTW, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a fridge of bud, or corona, or whatever beer on the planet if they respect you and, more importantly you respect them.
It's not your job to convert them. People like what they like.
My thing about all this beer snobbery "we're better" bullsh!t is....The craft beer industry has existed since right around the time I turned 21, about 24 years ago...at least that's when I first noticed there were OTHER beers around besides BMC there was snpa, and bell's and sam adams starting to pop up in a few stores in Metro Detroit at that time, as well as imports like Guiness, Bredore's and Double Diamond (from England-the first non bmc bottled beer I ever bought) This stuff was first in my awareness in the mid to late 80's.
In fact when I was underaged I had my first taste of bud, spat it out and made my decision that beer sucked, and drank other things in the interum, mostly wine, and bourbon...in fact the first legal drink I ever bought was a bottle of calvados. Yet, since I loved to read, I always heard about beers like guiness, and other things, so I kept hearing that there was "good beer" out there.
Then I turned 21 and shortly after, like I said above, I began to see these OTHER beers around in bars and better beer/wine stores around my college campus. Plus the first micro brewery was in a resteraunt near campus as well.
I think my first non BMC beer I tried in a bar, was a guiness....And, as much as I think little of it NOW, it was a soul changing moment...I truly found out that there was something better than a budlight out there.
The point being..There has been alternative to BMC somewhat readily available since probably 1985...and more and more everyday.
Despite bmc's control over distribution craft, or imported beer has managed to be available to one degree or another for a lond time.
And now with commercials for Sam Adams, and even a show about dogfish head on one of the most popular cable channels...it really is NOT invisible anymore...if it ever was...And I don't believe it ever was.
Just like it was my choice to explore the world of beer for 24 years, it has been other folks choice to make Budlight the best selling beer on the planet, despite the fact that personally it makes me want to puke. Craft beers make other folks want to puke...It's just the way it is.
It's not AHB's "fault" that their product is the top seller...Nor is it totally a vast conspiracy to manipulate the marketplace as some of us beer snobs want to convince ourselves (though it does go on to a greater or lesser extent) But it's NOT the main...
The main reason is that more folks like those safe, (flavorless to me) light lager style of beer.
And despite a 10% loss of sales over time...it's still going to be the top seller in the market place...
Why? Because the majority of folks choose it over the vast array of other products out there. It simply reflects the relatively safe tastes of human beings...especially the american populace. Most folks like safe, relatively bland food and drink....Hence the popularity of "predigested" fast food like mcdonalds, burger king, et al....Blandness prevails....
Most people are afraid to try new things...so their horizens or limited...but there's also going to be folks, who DO try craft beers....and go back to BMC...because that's what they prefer....there's nothing wrong with them...it's just their choice....
Just like it is our choice to like the alternatives...that's just the way it is.
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Ace_Club
Well-Known Member
Well put, Revvy.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Looks like Revvy took some people to SCHOOL today. Hope you guys packed your lunch (and had your backpack)...
I won't deny that breweries will produce what sells. It just makes great business sense. Produce a brew that you can clear inventory of, within a reasonable amount of time, in order to stay in business. If people want a certain style of brew, then [if you want to sell to those people], you need to make it.
I also won't deny that there are plenty of people that enjoy what's made by the big breweries, or even bigger ones (I consider Sam Adams a big brewery these days).
Home brewing, though, allows me (or you) to brew something that we want to drink. Maybe it's something we can no longer get over in the states. Perhaps we want to brew something from a recipe developed over a century ago, that you can't get made by a brewery (or costs a small fortune when it is available).
Right now, I'm concentrating on making ales (includes stouts and porters too). Eventually, I'll probably take a stab (or several) at making lagers too. There's so many different brews you can make, that the chances of you running out of recipes, in a lifetime, is rather small.
I won't deny that breweries will produce what sells. It just makes great business sense. Produce a brew that you can clear inventory of, within a reasonable amount of time, in order to stay in business. If people want a certain style of brew, then [if you want to sell to those people], you need to make it.
I also won't deny that there are plenty of people that enjoy what's made by the big breweries, or even bigger ones (I consider Sam Adams a big brewery these days).
Home brewing, though, allows me (or you) to brew something that we want to drink. Maybe it's something we can no longer get over in the states. Perhaps we want to brew something from a recipe developed over a century ago, that you can't get made by a brewery (or costs a small fortune when it is available).
Right now, I'm concentrating on making ales (includes stouts and porters too). Eventually, I'll probably take a stab (or several) at making lagers too. There's so many different brews you can make, that the chances of you running out of recipes, in a lifetime, is rather small.
gr8shandini
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the lesson revvy. For the record, it's not just the "stupid 'Muricuns" that flock to BMCs. I was in Dublin and the Isle of Man last year, and the most common order I overheard at the bars was original Bud or Carling (which I didn't try, but I was told is very similar).
Yeah, that is the saddest part, "American envy" has created a yearning for those beers over their own regional beers. That's the sad thing about globalization. So of course the corporations are going to jump on more markets. But it is as much the consumer's fault as it is the "big evil corporations." They always have the power to choose what beer they want to suck back. Noone's holding a gun on anyone. They pick whatever beer they want... Just like we do......
motobrewer
I'm no atheist scientist, but...
i was waiting for the revvy curb-stomp
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mickey D's (as well as Wendy's- who has it proudly on their doors I just noticed a couple weeks ago) and ALL fast foods ARE in Zagat's.
In fact you can find the Zagat's reviews here. http://www.zagat.com/FASTFOOD
cklages
Well-Known Member
*meekly raises hand*
I actually started brewing trying to make budweiser or the like. Seriously, when you're plunking down 38 bucks a case, you start to figure hey, it can't be that hard can it? My tastes did tend towards the the light lager although I did appreciate most of the various styles of beer brought in by the liquor commission, there wasn't generally anything all that groundbreaking.
So 80 bucks in hand, I went down the local homebrew store, got myself a plastic bucket and a Cooper's lager kit, a kilo of dextrose and set to brewing. Naturally when I was more than slightly curious how it was that I had somehow made cider rather than beer, google lead me here and the rest is history.
Now I'm into the hobby for easily $1500 (of course it is no longer about the money), have since gone all grain, and still haven't brewed a single light lager. Who knows where this journey would have ended if 3.75 pounds of prehopped LME and 2.2 lbs of dextrose with an ale yeast fermented at 80 degrees would have tasted like Bud?
Down the road, I might give the light lager a try to test my brewing chops, but it has dropped pretty far on the list of priorities. Hefes, IPAs and maybe even a RIS will probably come first. Given the effort involved in replicating Bud at a homebrew level, 38 bucks a case is starting to sound cheap. Anybody running a special on beechwood chips?
I actually started brewing trying to make budweiser or the like. Seriously, when you're plunking down 38 bucks a case, you start to figure hey, it can't be that hard can it? My tastes did tend towards the the light lager although I did appreciate most of the various styles of beer brought in by the liquor commission, there wasn't generally anything all that groundbreaking.
So 80 bucks in hand, I went down the local homebrew store, got myself a plastic bucket and a Cooper's lager kit, a kilo of dextrose and set to brewing. Naturally when I was more than slightly curious how it was that I had somehow made cider rather than beer, google lead me here and the rest is history.
Now I'm into the hobby for easily $1500 (of course it is no longer about the money), have since gone all grain, and still haven't brewed a single light lager. Who knows where this journey would have ended if 3.75 pounds of prehopped LME and 2.2 lbs of dextrose with an ale yeast fermented at 80 degrees would have tasted like Bud?
Down the road, I might give the light lager a try to test my brewing chops, but it has dropped pretty far on the list of priorities. Hefes, IPAs and maybe even a RIS will probably come first. Given the effort involved in replicating Bud at a homebrew level, 38 bucks a case is starting to sound cheap. Anybody running a special on beechwood chips?
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Wow bud is 38 bucks a case up in Canada eh? And people still buy it>?Q!
doulovebeef
Well-Known Member
for me its about brewing beer i like, crossing BJCP guidelines, and running with scissors. I also like that its something i made myself, i grew up on a farm and be self sufficient and hunting and the like was an everyday thing for us.
rycov
Well-Known Member
****ing **** revvy. that was an epic post!thanks for the knowledge:rockin:
while i do not claim to be any kind of beer snob, i do know what i like. and thats a pretty broad spectrum. the first beers i had (like many people) were bmc brands. i liked them. then i drank different (better to me) beers. then i got into homebrewing and drank more different (better) beers. so all in all i'm just glad that bmc beers were there for me when i was sixteen. with out them i might not be drinking beer now. they always have a place in my fridge.(not the only place mind you) but theyre cheap as hell and most people will drink them. i guess what im saying is that i can appreciate them for they're type. im drinking "the champagne of beers" now actually (my pipeline is lacking, still have a few weeks before anything will be ready). but back to revvy's post.wow! that was a lesson in a half. i had no idea. thanks!
while i do not claim to be any kind of beer snob, i do know what i like. and thats a pretty broad spectrum. the first beers i had (like many people) were bmc brands. i liked them. then i drank different (better to me) beers. then i got into homebrewing and drank more different (better) beers. so all in all i'm just glad that bmc beers were there for me when i was sixteen. with out them i might not be drinking beer now. they always have a place in my fridge.(not the only place mind you) but theyre cheap as hell and most people will drink them. i guess what im saying is that i can appreciate them for they're type. im drinking "the champagne of beers" now actually (my pipeline is lacking, still have a few weeks before anything will be ready). but back to revvy's post.wow! that was a lesson in a half. i had no idea. thanks!
munche
Well-Known Member
Glad Revvy helped drop knowledge on some folks.
As for the OP, I started brewing because I loved beer, and wanted to see if I could make it. I like doing things, I like being well rounded and learning about the how's and what's and whys of things I'm passionate about. The only reason I haven't brewed a light lager yet is because it'll tie up my fermenter for so damned long. But that's the same reason I haven't done an IRS or a Barleywine, either.
Anyone can BUY great beer, but can I MAKE a great beer? That's something to be proud of.
As for the OP, I started brewing because I loved beer, and wanted to see if I could make it. I like doing things, I like being well rounded and learning about the how's and what's and whys of things I'm passionate about. The only reason I haven't brewed a light lager yet is because it'll tie up my fermenter for so damned long. But that's the same reason I haven't done an IRS or a Barleywine, either.
Anyone can BUY great beer, but can I MAKE a great beer? That's something to be proud of.
munche
Well-Known Member
This reminds me of another point, the notion that American lagers are somehow of lower quality than say, Heineken, Stella, Corona, Foster's, etc....all of these beers are SO SIMILAR (minus the imports that rely on skunkiness and/or limes to add to their flavor) but there's this notion that the American versions are crap. Those American adjunct lagers are awful, now pour me a Sapporo!
What was described above is just the same effect in reverse...the grass is always greener, folks.
rycov
Well-Known Member
yeah. the heineken stella corona fosters, etc are also crap. and sapporo.
^^^^ +1
The last time I had a stella was almost 10 years ago. Even back then, underage and all, I knew it was the same crappy, tasteless lager like Bud and Coors, only with added skunkyness. I'll drink a PBR now and then for its quenching abilities and the nostalgia, but I don't get the rave reviews Bud and their ilk get because its hard to brew them consistently crappy. That's nice and all, but I bet it's pretty hard for EVERY brewery out there to hit their mark on every batch. The "Bud on a pedestal" syndrome due to its industrialized perfection is weird to me: it's just a mass marketed lager that tastes bland. I'll take an uneven, artisan crafted beer every day.
And before anyone tries to argue that taste in the eye of the beholder, would you also argue that cheap Burgers such as McD should be considered on the same level as a juicy homemade burger.
The last time I had a stella was almost 10 years ago. Even back then, underage and all, I knew it was the same crappy, tasteless lager like Bud and Coors, only with added skunkyness. I'll drink a PBR now and then for its quenching abilities and the nostalgia, but I don't get the rave reviews Bud and their ilk get because its hard to brew them consistently crappy. That's nice and all, but I bet it's pretty hard for EVERY brewery out there to hit their mark on every batch. The "Bud on a pedestal" syndrome due to its industrialized perfection is weird to me: it's just a mass marketed lager that tastes bland. I'll take an uneven, artisan crafted beer every day.
And before anyone tries to argue that taste in the eye of the beholder, would you also argue that cheap Burgers such as McD should be considered on the same level as a juicy homemade burger.
peachwein
Well-Known Member
Well said... i was about to post almost word for word what you said... i'm glad i read on before posting.
