Beer, cider or wine?

[Dale Owen]

I've posted this to the general brewing forum, but also think its appropriate here...

I have sweet cherry trees. They are ripening now and I need to decide what to do with them. I also have crab apple trees that produce a tart fruit, but not to the point of being unpalatable.

I really want to blend the two. My thoughts are either using them in the secondary for a beer with a "wildish" yeast I harvested, or use them to make a hard cider or wine.

I have never made a cider or wine. Assuming I have until the fall, when the apples ripen, I can figure it out by then (the process, I mean).

I'm thinking I can pick the cherries, pit them and freeze them until the apples are ripe.

So, I guess I'm asking on general opinions about beer versus cider or wine, in regards to the fruits I've got to work with.

I can likely come up with 5 pounds (at least) of cherries. As far as apples, I have three well established trees, so I could easily come up with 10 pounds or more (up to a hundred for all I know).

 

[Chalkyt]

Your suggestion is exactly what I do. Pit and freeze the cherries mid summer then use them in Fall.

(I have also cut the cherries to expose the pit and used them to make cherry liqueuer by steeping them in vodka, brandy, or a combination of both. It gives a slightly bitter after taste that works quite well, but I haven't done this with my Apple and Cherry Cider. Google "cherry liqueur" for lots of different but similar recipes... you will find that it starts out quite harsh but really comes good with 6 months or so ageing ).

I have also made Cherry Wine following the Jack Keller google information but found that it takes a lot of cherries. The result, when young was good but it didn't age all that well.

My cider process is to do a 5 litre (about 1 gallon) primary fermentation starting at around 1.060 or so with SO4 and then transfer to secondary at 1.020. Add 500g (about a pound or 100 frozen cherries) and let ferment down to about 1.002 or 1.003, guided by taste. I find that SO4 will often finish a bit above 1.000.

Add AJ or sugar up to around 1.005 and bottle for a petillant carbonation (or you can just bottle at 1.005 an assume that the fermentation will finish a bit above 1.000.

When I have them I will normally add about 10-20% crabs to my apple blend but I haven't done this with cherry cider so far (I only have one crab apple tree but eight assorted eating/cooking apple trees), so I can't suggest whether they would help or hinder.

Last time I entered the Apple/Cherry Cider it won the regional rural show scoring 48/50 so I have attached a copy of the judging form for your information (shame I had to waste a bottle on the judges!).

 

[Chalkyt]

Another "trick" that I had forgotten about is to make two batches of cider at the same time. Typically you lose about 1/4+ litre of cider (about a cup) when transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter because you want to leave the sediment behind.

Adding cherries to secondary will displace two to three times this much volume so you will probably end up with surplus primary cider once the secondary fermenter is full. So, you can use this either to top up the second batch when you transfer it, or put it in the fridge (or freezer) to top up when bottling.

 

[Dale Owen]

Thanks for all that info. Awesome! I've been picking cherries for a few days now. Looks Like I'll have close to 5 lbs. I've even put some in a starter to see if I can harvest some wild yeast. Anyway, if I'm understanding you, looks like I might have plenty to try the liqueur and cider and maybe even to rack a beer on top of some.

My cider process is to do a 5 litre (about 1 gallon) primary fermentation starting at around 1.060 or so with SO4 and then transfer to secondary at 1.020. Add 500g (about a pound or 100 frozen cherries) and let ferment down to about 1.002 or 1.003, guided by taste. I find that SO4 will often finish a bit above 1.000.

So, you recommend making an apple cider and racking that onto the cherries for secondary fermentation? The crab apples would be blended into other apples to make the juice/cider? I only have the crab apple trees. Honestly, since crab apple is such a general term, I'm not sure if they aren't a type of dwarf apple, if there's such a thing. Any way, there's so many, If I'm making gallon batches, I could likely make one that I blend with apples from a local orchard and one with all crab apples.

Another "trick" that I had forgotten about is to make two batches of cider at the same time. Typically you lose about 1/4+ litre of cider (about a cup) when transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter because you want to leave the sediment behind.

Here, I think you've lost me. I think that's mostly because I'm not familiar with things that happen when you make cider vs beer.

 

[Chalkyt]

Re the "trick". It is just a way of not wasting your primary cider. Although there is a difference between your US gallon (3.8 litres), our imperial gallon (4.5 litres), and my "gallon" carboy (5 litres) the wastage problem is the same...

Although I think in litres, the following is translated (I hope!) into pints. If you are doing all of your fermenting in a US gallon carboy, you will start with 8 pints of juice but when you transfer you typically leave behind about half a pint of the trub (yeast and apple solids that have settled out) which would otherwise cloud up the cider. So, you yield about 7.5 pints of juice to go into secondary fermentation.

However by the time you put two or three cups of frozen cherries (1-1.5 pints) into the secondary carboy, you will only need around 6 pints of the primary cider. So, what to do with the remaining primary cider.?

If you have a second batch of cider going, then you can use it to top up its secondary carboy when you transfer. Topping up is necessary to minimise oxygen. Ideally there should only be about an inch of headspace in the neck of the carboy.between the top of the cider and the airlock cork.

You will still have a bit left over so it is worth freezing or keeping in the fridge because when you go to bottle the cherry cider, you discard the cherries (or have them with ice cream.. yum, yum!). So topping up for bottling gives you a bit more. Also topping up may increase the FG a bit which is useful if you want to bottle at a higher SG to get some carbonation.

The yield from the second batch secondary should still be in the order of a gallon so at bottling time you can also use the "leftovers" to increase the SG at bottling for carbonation. Generally the juice is preferred to just sugar if you have it.

An alternative to this is to simply do a primary fermentation of 6 pints so there is no wastage, but this means only a 6 pint instead of an eventual 8 pint yield.

Phew... I hope that makes sense.

 

[Dale Owen]

Phew... I hope that makes sense.

Perfect sense! Thanks!