Pricing doesn't really work like this...
Beer Buyouts
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Pricing doesn't really work like this...
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I don't get it. You can support the little guy while hes struggling but the second they make it and get rich you throw them under the bus.
Everyone of those companies that got bought out are laughing all the way to the bank. The very reason they sold the company. Its not Inbevs fault the company sold. They could have easily just said no thanks. Its the small brewer who had a dream of getting rich brewing beer. AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED...God forbid.
Reminds me of the people that ***** and complain that the super rich don't pay enough taxes but if they hit lotto for 100 million those exact same people would hire the dream team of lawyers to hold onto as much money as possible...SMH
Everyone of those companies that got bought out are laughing all the way to the bank. The very reason they sold the company. Its not Inbevs fault the company sold. They could have easily just said no thanks. Its the small brewer who had a dream of getting rich brewing beer. AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED...God forbid.
Reminds me of the people that ***** and complain that the super rich don't pay enough taxes but if they hit lotto for 100 million those exact same people would hire the dream team of lawyers to hold onto as much money as possible...SMH
MapleGroveAleworks
Well-Known Member
Nobody is arguing that point at all. I'd sell out too if someone offered my brewery a billion dollars. But I'm not in that position, I'm a consumer. They have enough money now, they don't need anymore of mine.
. It is happening here in Phoenix AZ. I can see it reflected in the prices in the grocery stores and liquor stores I shop. It's all fake news, we could be a figment of the spaghetti monsters imagination, but when I see the effect with my own eyes...
My bad. I meant Midwest Supplies not Morebeer.
Turkeyshot
Well-Known Member
My claim is they bought a big segment of the LHBS market when they purchased NB and MS. Using these retailers as leverage against little guys like your LHBS is EXACTLY how the market works. Walmart.
Ouch. I heard of their claims on several top patented hops but hadn't heard of serious tactical acquisitions.
I can appreciate the increased distribution, however I can confirm that in the heart of Craft's territories that six packs of the popular stuff, per bottle is over $2.00 now. It used to be around $1.50.
I have personally not seen a change on quality, just distribution. However eventually any publicly held company will experience lower growth over time which will induce weaker profits and less dividends to shareholders. This will eventually affect the bottom line, and the quality of the product.
I have personally not seen a change on quality, just distribution. However eventually any publicly held company will experience lower growth over time which will induce weaker profits and less dividends to shareholders. This will eventually affect the bottom line, and the quality of the product.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
To AzCooler....In your post I quoted from, you were talking about the cost of MALT SUPPLIES to homebrewers, not something you are buying at the grocery or liquor store. My point was that there isn't any proof that ABI is having any effect at all on the price of homebrew items.
But if you want to change the subject....
The US now has more than 5700 breweries, so retail beer price increases can't be all ABInBev's fault.
Changing the subject again, I've thought for a long time that small brewery prices are somewhat high.
Beer producers will charge what they think the market will bear. $6 a pint for mediocre beer at some small brewery in the middle of nowhere is pretty ridiculous, but if people are willing to pay that, that's what they are going to charge.
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AIH bought Austin outright. AIH is still owned by the founders (no, not the brewery).
Malt supplies have been affected, but I wouldn't say the price effects are the most transparent. Try to buy malt from a cottage malt company and have it mailed to you farm to you. If you know of such a maltster that I don't have to drive to their malt floor to get some fresh craft malt and can get it direct without buying from a distributor then let me know. That is the beer I most want to make. Also looking for farm to table fresh hops.
I think the free market is an incredible solution to a problem that consumers have suffered throughout history. For a short time we experienced a beer renaissance. Big beer was caught on their heels. Those boys are back now and determined to get back what's there's. We the consumers must say what we want and understand exactly what that is to win in this market.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
As a consumer nobodys winning or loosing...its beer for Christ sake...I'm not changing my drinking habits to "win" from the big guys...that just sounds ridiculous.
If you want farm fresh go to a farmers market and see what they charge. Big business doesn't raise prices it lowers it. Not to mention "farm fresh hops" are only available for like a week a year. We have hop farms popping up all over where I live that sell wet hops to the public for a nano second a year on harvest day.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Deer Creek MaltHouse is near me, I've never used their malt and to buy retail you have to get it through Keystone Homebrew. Its somewhat pricey at $2.45/Lb. I'm kind of cheapskate and buy sacks of grain for $.60-.80 a lb. There are more small maltsters around, but most of them let someone else handle the retail sales.
http://deercreekmalt.com/product-information/
http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/shop/beer/ingredients/grains.html?
maltster=192
Here's another one:
http://www.doubleeaglemalt.com/
http://deercreekmalt.com/product-information/
http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/shop/beer/ingredients/grains.html?
maltster=192
Here's another one:
http://www.doubleeaglemalt.com/
As a consumer for we "win" when we get products that we want that meet our needs. Some products aren't available for any price like Hearst's Rosebud. Others we get for free like our mother's love, so price isn't always a factor. For me a win would be as many different varieties as the market can bear at a reasonable price, not the lowest price possible, but a variety of prices. That way, as my tastes and finances change I can always find something fun and new to try. Until recently, that was how it seemed. Lately though selection has diminished while prices have steeply risen. At least that is my experience and the most reasonable explanation from my perspective is the "disruptive growth" units of AB/MillerCoors.
BTW I know it's just beer and I don't care like I care about if my car is running tomorrow, but you have to cut me some slack since this is a generally beer related forum where we discuss beer things.
1. High growth companies generally dont issue dividends.
2. High growth does not necessarily translate to higher profits.
3. Low growth does not necessarily translate into lower profits.
4. Low growth companies generally pay higher dividends.
5. Slow growth does not necessarily translate into less quality. If it does the price adjusts accordingly.
The first lesson in economics is that there are scarce resources and that those resources have alternate uses.
The most reasonable explanation for your dissatisfaction is not because of ABInbev, but that your preferences no longer line up with the preferences of the market in general.
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
Craft Malsters:
Root Shoot Malting
Troubadour Malting
Colorado Malting Company
Skagit Valley Malting
These are all maltsters I have purchased from direct. If you are buying small quantities, you are probably best to buy from a homebrew shop they supply.
Farm to kettle hops
High Wire Hops
The supply fresh hops, dried whole hop flowers and pellets, that they make.
Limited varieties as the most of the current popular hops are proprietary to certain growers.
Root Shoot Malting
Troubadour Malting
Colorado Malting Company
Skagit Valley Malting
These are all maltsters I have purchased from direct. If you are buying small quantities, you are probably best to buy from a homebrew shop they supply.
Farm to kettle hops
High Wire Hops
The supply fresh hops, dried whole hop flowers and pellets, that they make.
Limited varieties as the most of the current popular hops are proprietary to certain growers.
Hey thanks for the lesson.
When the market in general is manipulated, my dissatisfaction lies with the company that is manipulating it and with the apathy of consumers who did and could be enjoying a better market. It's not just ABInbev, it's also the grocery store chains, the beer distributors and the gom't. Heck I am part of the wheel. I'm not proposing that we have a beer revolt, I want another beer renaissance. When self driving cars come into existence I will only drink micro.
1. It was merely an example of tangible returns. Shall I substitute share price or stock splits?
2. Absolutely correct, see the early years of Amazon, for instance.
3. Show me some good, concrete examples of lowered growth with increased profits.
4. I can't argue that, but once again, dividends was merely an example. It is not in itself the thrust of my argument, but you did devote 2/5 of your rebuttal to it.
5. That is a big "if", and especially on commodities.
brewshki
Well-Known Member
I agree with the original list to an extent. I have a less hard time buying beer from Lagunitas or the CBA group (widmer, pyramid, red hook, etc.).
I think that AB is trying to play more games than Heineken. Therefore, I don't mind Lagunitas being fully owned by them. I think that Heineken is actually making an investment and wants Lagunitas to contribute heavily to its success. AB seems to be playing more games in terms of distribution and devaluing craft to a price range of Bud Light and squeezing out the smaller guys. I also think Lagunitas has a good amount of autonomy still and still seems to have that old attitude.
With the CBA group, they are publically traded. I don't know the specifics of the deal that AB had to buy part of them, but their stock is publically traded, so they had a theoretically smaller choice in AB owning them.
I think that AB is trying to play more games than Heineken. Therefore, I don't mind Lagunitas being fully owned by them. I think that Heineken is actually making an investment and wants Lagunitas to contribute heavily to its success. AB seems to be playing more games in terms of distribution and devaluing craft to a price range of Bud Light and squeezing out the smaller guys. I also think Lagunitas has a good amount of autonomy still and still seems to have that old attitude.
With the CBA group, they are publically traded. I don't know the specifics of the deal that AB had to buy part of them, but their stock is publically traded, so they had a theoretically smaller choice in AB owning them.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
The "squeezing out" of the little guy is a bunch of BS.
If your just starting out as a small no name/nobody brewing company going up against the biggest company in the world....what the hell are you expecting....to walk right in and consider yourself equal...expecting them to open their arms to competition...total nonsense... There is only one way to make it and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with INbev......BUST YOUR ASS....knock on doors every single day...set up at craft fairs...have a consistent quality product and get your name noticed...The fist beer( I believe) to be bought out by AB was Blue Point Brewing....10 minutes from my house...They were a couple of brewers...and there dog..that made a quality product that started showing up at bars and through TIME and DEDICATION got noticed by AB and sold for an estimated 25 MILLION....INBEV is not killing the craft brew market. Its finding quality craft brewers with a good track record and rewarding them with millions while still making the product available to the masses......and that's a good thing
If InBev or any other big company bought up the little guys to ELIMINATE that beer and only sell BMC that would be one thing...but that's not the case...They buy up little companies...make them rich and continue to sell the same product....I see Zero harm in that.
If your just starting out as a small no name/nobody brewing company going up against the biggest company in the world....what the hell are you expecting....to walk right in and consider yourself equal...expecting them to open their arms to competition...total nonsense... There is only one way to make it and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with INbev......BUST YOUR ASS....knock on doors every single day...set up at craft fairs...have a consistent quality product and get your name noticed...The fist beer( I believe) to be bought out by AB was Blue Point Brewing....10 minutes from my house...They were a couple of brewers...and there dog..that made a quality product that started showing up at bars and through TIME and DEDICATION got noticed by AB and sold for an estimated 25 MILLION....INBEV is not killing the craft brew market. Its finding quality craft brewers with a good track record and rewarding them with millions while still making the product available to the masses......and that's a good thing
If InBev or any other big company bought up the little guys to ELIMINATE that beer and only sell BMC that would be one thing...but that's not the case...They buy up little companies...make them rich and continue to sell the same product....I see Zero harm in that.
Sacrifice everything, time, money, effort. Sell out. Sounds like the American dream to me. I'm really not judging. Personally, I'd rather see someone make a great product with longevity that makes them rich over time and they don't have to sell out and they don't have to bust their ass, but rather work hard and are disciplined enough to enjoy family friends and the rewards of their work while they are working. But if the system requires you eff everything but your focus and then retire big, all the more power to those who are able to work the system.
It's every brewers secret dream to be hated by their most loyal customers!
1. Shareholders want returns. Either in stock price appreciation or dividends.
3. BUD, ATT and PG
4. Lower growth companies usually pay dividends for a couple of reasons they dont need to invest as much in the company, they have a stable earnings growth, to show their financial strength, to attract investors etc
5. I dont think you mean commodities. Commodities are generally considered to be raw materials and have little to no differentiation in quality. The above mentioned companies are mature slow growth companies. They are profitable and have made quality products for decades.
For anyone to get what they want there must be enough people wanting an item and for it to be profitable for someone to provide it. Maybe your preferences are not a popular as you think or maybe you are not offering enough money for what you want. Probably the best thing you can do is work to elect officials that want to promote laws that maximize free trade between brewers/suppliers and consumers.
1. Oh, I thought investing was altruism.
3. I was agreeing with you and offering an example.
4. You dropped your ratio.
5. Good catch.
I'm on vacation. I can do this all weekend.
No problem. Let me know if you need any further explanations.
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