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jimmyjusa

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If someone is wanting to enter the brewing business do you think there is a minimum number of beers you should have ready to go? I'd think a brewery should have at least 6 main beers they have perfected.
Are there certain styles that should be thought of as necessary? One that comes to mind is an ipa, but with there being so many of these out there already I'd almost think it would be better to avoid (if that isn't already a style you prefer and brew).
In general my thoughts are in order to get started a few well known styles should be done and then maybe trying different styles.
1. IPA/ pale ale
2. Porter or stout
3. Wheat beer
4. Amber ale
5. Sour or gose while they are popular
6. ?
 
bear in mind that while your ability to brew different styles is admired by beer geeks and fellow brewers, it doesnt necessarily reflect the current tastes of consumers.
I’ve been to lots of breweries that have a balanced menu (lots of variety) and some taps just don’t sell.
A lot of the nearby ones have half the menu as different IPAs...
 
bkboiler said:
bear in mind that while your ability to brew different styles is admired by beer geeks and fellow brewers, it doesnt necessarily reflect the current tastes of consumers.
I’ve been to lots of breweries that have a balanced menu (lots of variety) and some taps just don’t sell.
A lot of the nearby ones have half the menu as different IPAs...
Click to expand...
A lot of the bars around here have at least half their menu as IPAS, some are more like 75%. I can appreciate them for what they are but the high bitterness is not my personal preference. I'm trying out the hazy styles as i come across them and they are enjoyable for me. Since the IPA is so popular i think a brewery almost has to have one or two because that's all some people drink.
 
jimmyjusa said:
do you think there is a minimum number of beers you should have ready to go
Click to expand...
Yes........ONE.
Don't go crazy with variety.
What you DON'T want to do is to be running out of one of your products constantly. (this is from a distribution standpoint)
If you mean just for your tap-room... 3
There is an unwritten rule that you need to have
1-IPA (best selling craft beer in the USA)
2-something dark for those whom hate IPA's (porter/stout)
3-Kiddie pool craft beer aka lawnmower/BMC style (this is for those whom are just getting into craft beer and really still want to order a bud light)

If you want to have a 4th tap, that can be your seasonal/rotating tap. Expand to more if you can keep up to capacity.
 
People like me who don't like high IBUs are left with very few options at some places. By the time we cross off the IPAs and pale ales that are damn near IPAs, we're usually left with an Imperial Stout you can't drink more than two of before tipping over, and something with strawberries and passion fruit in.
 
papz said:
Yes........ONE.
Don't go crazy with variety.
What you DON'T want to do is to be running out of one of your products constantly. (this is from a distribution standpoint)
If you mean just for your tap-room... 3
There is an unwritten rule that you need to have
1-IPA (best selling craft beer in the USA)
2-something dark for those whom hate IPA's (porter/stout)
3-Kiddie pool craft beer aka lawnmower/BMC style (this is for those whom are just getting into craft beer and really still want to order a bud light)

If you want to have a 4th tap, that can be your seasonal/rotating tap. Expand to more if you can keep up to capacity.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your input, I'm still new to brewing but I'm considering focusing on a few main styles beyond my personal tastes and seeing how well received they are. There is a potential opportunity to get started for much less than normal but i know i need to have something solid before i really start thinking of taking that step. Your response is the thing i was looking for and appreciate it.
 
Considering IPA represents approximately 50% of all craft beer sold, I'd say it would be pretty smart to have 2 or 3 on tap. Maybe a "flagship" IPA, and a couple that rotate. Beyond that, papz has the right idea - something dark for the IPA haters, and something really easy drinking. I'd also add a kettle sour with a rotating fruit addition.
 
cloudybrewer said:
People like me who don't like high IBUs are left with very few options at some places. By the time we cross off the IPAs and pale ales that are damn near IPAs, we're usually left with an Imperial Stout you can't drink more than two of before tipping over, and something with strawberries and passion fruit in.
Click to expand...
I'm in that boat of preferring the other styles. Luckily there is usually a wheat beer of some sort but I'm now working on expanding what i try because you never know what you may like until you try it. Apparently some people hate total wine but the ability to get individual beers other than 22oz bombers when trying a new style is really nice. Luckily i have a locally owned place that is similar but is a minimart so the overall variety is just a couple aisles and not necessarily the freshest examples
 
Staylow said:
Considering IPA represents approximately 50% of all craft beer sold, I'd say it would be pretty smart to have 2 or 3 on tap. Maybe a "flagship" IPA, and a couple that rotate. Beyond that, papz has the right idea - something dark for the IPA haters, and something really easy drinking. I'd also add a kettle sour with a rotating fruit addition.
Click to expand...
I'd think a higher ibu more traditional one and perhaps a hazy/lower ibu hop bomb would be a decent combo to worry about getting right to start with.
 
Jayjay1976 said:
Depending on your geographical location, always having 2-3 taps ready with a good miller lite clone on tap is a sure recipe for success.
Click to expand...
I definitely agree that there should be something like this or just slightly more "craft" style like a cream ale or a helles. Something not super complex if you don't want to nitpick what you are drinking and just enjoy it.
 
How about a pale weizenbock for sipping and maybe a nice, light, malty sweet kölsch ala Beau's lug tread? IMHO, any beer list gap that can't be filled with a Belgian ale can absolutely be satisfied with a German style. After all, Germans may not have invented beer, but they did sternly order the perfection of it in an exaggerated Bavarian accent: "Mach uns einen leckeres bier arschloch!!"
 
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jimmyjusa said:
If someone is wanting to enter the brewing business do you think there is a minimum number of beers you should have ready to go? I'd think a brewery should have at least 6 main beers they have perfected.
Are there certain styles that should be thought of as necessary? One that comes to mind is an ipa, but with there being so many of these out there already I'd almost think it would be better to avoid (if that isn't already a style you prefer and brew).
In general my thoughts are in order to get started a few well known styles should be done and then maybe trying different styles.
1. IPA/ pale ale
2. Porter or stout
3. Wheat beer
4. Amber ale
5. Sour or gose while they are popular
6. ?
Click to expand...

You need a lager or two, perhaps a saison, something a little fruity. A cider.

I'm too far along to start my own brewery, but like many I've thought about it. If I were going to do that, I'd probably have 16 taps.

You have to please the brew nerds, but they often bring others for whom that is not their passion, so you need something to please them as well.

If it's me, here's what I have:

1. Double IPA
2. Hazy IPA, low IBU, high aroma/flavor
3. Some rotating IPA of varying kinds
4. Porter
5. Stout
6. Wheat Beer
7. Amber
8. Lager 1 (lighter pilsner)
9. Lager 2 (maybe my Darth Lager)
10. Rye Beer (maybe my Funky Rye)
11. Fruity beer (a Shandy type thing)
12. Cider
13. Rotating Seasonal
14. Belgian of some sort
15. Experimental
16. Experimental

The amber, wheat beer, lagers, and Cider are for those for whom big flavors are scary. I've talked to a few taproom people who say they need a cider on tap, even if it's someone else's, just to have that for people who don't like beer.

I was at Pisgah Brewing in Black Mountain, NC in June. Their taplist was beyond stunning, IMO, and I never wanted to leave. Here's what they had:

Nitro Milk Stout, Nitro Stout, Cherry Wheat, Pisgah Pale, Dubbel, Trippel, Greybeard IPA, Snack's Rye Stout, Leaf Amber, Vortex II (IPA?), Porter, Blueberry Wheat, Schwarzbier (dark lager), Cream Ale, River IPA, Hazy Train, Vienna Lager, Brown Ale, Little Slaty (?), Urban Orchard Ginger Cider, and a couple more I don't recognize.

Stunning beer, at least the ones I had. I like Rye, but I'm not a Stout fan. I had the Rye Stout and I was in love. Wish I could reproduce that.
 
In true Prague style, offer only a dark and a light lager, both around 3% ABV, and decent goulasch for 2€ a plate. Watch them glug down 5 mugs and stare at eachother wondering when the buzz will arrive.
 
jimmyjusa said:
Thank you for your input, I'm still new to brewing but I'm considering focusing on a few main styles beyond my personal tastes and seeing how well received they are. There is a potential opportunity to get started for much less than normal but i know i need to have something solid before i really start thinking of taking that step. Your response is the thing i was looking for and appreciate it.
Click to expand...

Are you thinking of doing the commercial brewing yourself or getting a professional in to do it? If you've just started brewing then you will be well out of your depth.

I like the three listed by Papz - IPA, Dark, Light.

The most important thing is quality. If you've got 20 mediocre beers on tap you are less likely to get repeat customers but if you have 3-5 perfectly made beers then people are more likely to come back. There are hundreds of crappy craft beer breweries out there and you will be competing with all of them, plus the guys who actually know what they are doing.
 
I like diversity, but as someone pointed out, you will have to brew styles that sell, as you will be running a bussiness after all, which needs money to run beyond its first batches of beer.

If I were to open a brewery, I would like to brew the following styles:

Vienna Lager 5-6% ( proper lager yeast with german Vienna malt and newer german hops, for a modern hop kick - tasty and easy going )
Irish Red Ale - around 5-5.5%
ESB 5-6%
Milk/Oatmeal Porter 5-6%
Farmhouse Ale/Saison 4-6%
Belgian Dubbel 6-7%
Belgian Dark Strong Ale 8-10%
Black IPA 6-7%
And some " light " coloured IPAs, whatever the trend is: NEIPA, West Coast, Brut, etc. - And definitely a Session IPA, something under 5%, but with a punch.

Once you establish yourself on the market, you can experiment with other styles, trends, etc.

Cheers.
 
Any brewery is limited by the total number of fermenters it has. (not to mention brite tanks and serving kegs if you aren't serving directly from a brite)

If you have 10 different beers on tap... that's 10 fermenters and they AREN'T cheap. Kegs need cleaned and you have to have time to brew/let them ferment. Starting out with that much variety is just asking to fail. However, depending on what your local laws may be, you might be allowed to serve beer made by others along with table wines.(ciders too)

Time is money and you don't want to waste it chasing your own tail by offering too much variety at first. Find out what SELLS first. Make that your priority. Your 4th/rotating tap can be where you experiment with other styles. If something sells very well (and you can keep up with production) then you can add it as a permanent tap. If it doesn't move well, pull it off tap when the next experimental beer is ready(one and done).

Here's an analogy about it. Let's say that beer is pizza and you are the delivery driver...Customer orders a supreme and a pepperoni. You only have the pepperoni because the brite tank is still carbing up with the 14th beer that you offer instead of the "supreme pizza"....So you go to the customer and say "sorry man, i only have the one pizza you ordered today, maybe next week."......Do you think that they will call you back next week or go to your competition? Juggling too many styles/beers WILL result in this. Complexity/variety is something you should build to instead of trying it first thing with no brewery experience....(crawl before you walk, walk before you run.)

Also..... it's not about "What beers YOU like" personally, but "what beers sell."
Sure, brewers want to offer people the world but you have to keep the lights on and that's done by focusing on what is moving out of the taps.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Iseneye said:
Are you thinking of doing the commercial brewing yourself or getting a professional in to do it? If you've just started brewing then you will be well out of your depth.

I like the three listed by Papz - IPA, Dark, Light.

The most important thing is quality. If you've got 20 mediocre beers on tap you are less likely to get repeat customers but if you have 3-5 perfectly made beers then people are more likely to come back. There are hundreds of crappy craft beer breweries out there and you will be competing with all of them, plus the guys who actually know what they are doing.
Click to expand...
I'd be doing the brewing. I'm not going out next week and getting started but when i first brought up the opportunity to my fiance i said I'd probably need about ten years of brewing before thinking about it. Well I've been thinking that ten years is a long ways away to just get started so I'm thinking closer to 5 years now. I'm in a local brew club that has a few commercial brewers and brewer/owners all there to provide feedback on beer once i dial it in.
 
So this wouldn't be a stand alone brewery for the thing I'm looking at, it is a shared brewery and I'd be getting one fermenter and one brite tank. I'm not saying I'd be trying to kick out ten different beers at once but I'm asking more about how many recipes should be the bare minimum to have ready to be able to do as needed. There is a shared taproom and i believe there are a few taps reserved for each on site brewer plus other commercial beers are served as well. Knowing this my plan would be starting with one or two beers as i guess flagship beers, but then having the other beers there to maybe cycle through or something.
 
It's not a simple question and doesn't have a straightforward answer.

You need to a) figure out what your vision is and b) figure out what your market is.

If you want the broadest appeal, then a combo of trendy and approachable (so one or more IPAs, somthing dark, lawnmower beer, and definitely whatever thing is trendy, fruited quick sours and haze bombs at the moment). If you want to relegate yourself to a niche, that's fine too. A mate brews nothing but Belgians and German Lagers and does fairly well, but his scope is limited and he knows it. Doesn't do an IPA at all, a few hoppy Saisons are the closest.

Then, it's the variety you want and the cost/implications of it.

Heavy variety means lots of tanks and smaller batches (unless you want to serve old beer, which is poor form but people do it, and then you're either tying up a serving tank or need an bigger keg fleet). That means higher per cost in both equipment (FV cost/bbl goes down as tank size goes up, plus it's more glycol lines/solenoids/etc etc) and definitely in labor.

It works for a taproom-only nano model. But if you wanna get into distro at all the variety has to get slashed. My last gig tried to keep 6 cores and 10 total different beers on with only 5 FVs, with almost all available for distro, with a new beer out every week. I still don't know how I pulled it off for so long.

My preferred model is:

-4 cores (year round)
-4 seasonals (one at a time for 3 mos each)
-4-12 annual releases (one at a time, one batch a year and when it's gone that's it for the year)
And then the rest are one-offs as tank space allows.

Beyond that, you either need to be a damned good businessman and then just hire a good brewer, or if you're a damned good brewer (sounds like you're just starting out and are probably far from ready) but don't know business I'd suggest working for a brewery rather than starting your own.

Few have both the brewing and the business talent. Even less have the time to do both well.

Plus side, if you do go down the rabbit hole, in 5 years heavy market contraction and lots of failed breweries mean an influx of cheap used equipment ;)
 
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Also consider the yeast strains you're planning on using. Yeast on the commercial scale isn't cheap and being able to harvest and re-use yeast saves you a lot of money. The brewery I'm working at started off with 4 different strains (lager, chico, ale and saison). We were planning on doing a hefe too which would have brought that up to 5 different strains all at $300-400 a pop. We harvest our yeast and can get about 4-5 generations before we buy a new fresh pitch.

Since then we've decided to drop the chico and simply use the ale yeast in everything but lagers and our saison. Demand is also going to drive your ability to harvest and re-use yeast. If you're cranking out the same beer every 2-3 weeks then it works fine. If you sit on a batch for 2 months then it's probably not going to work.

Also, my completely unsolicited advice is don't open a brewery right now. The market is very saturated right now and trying to open with only some home brewing experience isn't going to be very fun. At the least, I'd recommend getting a job at a brewery for a year and see if it's something you're really wanting to do.

I was in the same boat as you and realized after a year working at a 10bbl brewery that owning a brewery is definitely not for me at this time. Way too much competition and stress for the business owners.
 
A small city near here (Albany GA pop. 40,000) recently opened a brewery that looks like it will be very successful. Their basic lineup (excluding seasonal brews) is 4 beers .. 1) Gose 2) Stout 3) Golden Ale 4) IPA

My guess is that the IPA sells best. Of the four, I prefer the stout
 
I say just go for it. Hell I'm going to start my own hospital next year. Surgery can't be that hard, can it? Hey, can I operate on you? I promise, I'm really interested in being successful. Anyone have a spare medivac chopper I can borrow?
 
Jayjay1976 said:
I say just go for it. Hell I'm going to start my own hospital next year. Surgery can't be that hard, can it? Hey, can I operate on you? I promise, I'm really interested in being successful. Anyone have a spare medivac chopper I can borrow?
Click to expand...
I take lungs now. Gills come next week.
 
There are two types of beer drinkers*: those who want to taste all sorts of different things, and those who, once they find a great beer, want to keep drinking it.

I know a guy here who claims he's rated over 9500 beers. He says he doesn't like to drink beers he's already had. This, to me, is nuts; when I find a great beer, I want to keep having it. I can't imagine what he's getting out of that approach; if I tried a beer and it was absolutely outstanding, the next (different) one I have is almost certainly going to be less outstanding. I can't figure why anyone would want to do that, but to each his own.

But I have another friend who is not quite as crazy about different beers, but he'll also try what's new. When he finds a great beer he'll try to buy a 4-pack or 6-pack and stock his beer fridge--which has nothing but beer in it.

I think one would want to please both the "I want something new" drinkers as well as the "I want more of this" drinkers. And as well, have the BMC clone and a cider for those who don't like beer. :)


*just as there are those who want to divide the world into two groups, and those who don't. :)
 
Depends on the location and what the locals want, unless you in a tourist area where you're going to have a more diverse base.

But six would be a good number.

Being able to brew a decent beer doesn't mean you can run a business successfully unless you have a well grounded background in both.
 
In my opinion having 6 taps should be a minimum.
1. IPA
2. Specialty IPA (IIPA, Hazy, Black, Red, Milkshake.......)
3. Dark (Porter/Stout)
4. Light option(Helles/cream ale/blonde....)
5. Something interesting/seasonal
6. Carbonated water with soda syrup options for the kids/designated drivers.

The top two options will be your top sellers since IPA's are king. But by having that diversity everybody should be happy, even the kids!
 
Commercial success comes from knowing how to read the market you are entering. Starting a brewery that succeeds requires making beer that sells, not beer that you personally like. Those two can overlap, but if no one is buying your beer, it doesn't matter one bit how much you like it.

There are a number of breweries near me that are doing well, here's a breakdown of their current offerings
First brewery, been open just over 2 years and doing amazing. Constantly packed, distributing in the greater local area, huge growth. They usually have 12-15 taps. at the moment 4 are some kind of IPA. 3 are some kind of sour. 3 are some kind of big stout. 3 are a light beer near a blonde or fruit blond style. 1 is a brown. Their tap list shifts all the time but the breakdown of styles holds to this form.

Second brewery, been open 4-5 years. Successful, distributes, usually packed but a different vibe. Their offerings have been unchanged since opening until this year. Regular IPA, double IPA, specialty IPA, Amber ale, and a rotating seasonal throughout the year. This year they finally added a new offering, a mexican lager. They have fiercely loyal customers that want the same thing over and over.

Third example, has been open significantly longer than any of the others and has distribution in several states. Usually busy but feels like it's more people who just wanted to visit a brand they know. They have a core offering that's always there that's normally an IPA or two, an amber, and a stout. Then rotating seasonal and a rotating experimental lineup that is usually IPA related.

Notice a pattern?


Then you get to the New England HYPE! breweries. You'll never be them, no one can be them. Many can try. But they've proven what sells. All glory to the NEIPA.
 
My opinion is that you first need to look at your location, local demand and competition. In my town, we have at least 60 local breweries. Some are make really good beer, some don't. The ones that do the best, financially, are the once with the greatest access. Quality of their product does not seem to matter, but that is entirely dependent on the wants of their patrons. Convenience is key, but prime real estate has a higher rent. Also keep room for expansion in mind.

A second point, again using a local model: on my drive home there are 3 breweries all within a block of each other. Of the 3, one of them has a huge menu, inconsistent product and poor customer service - I no longer go there.
Of the remaining 2 breweries, brews are comparable but one has better atmosphere (seating, bar and more personable bar staff). You can determine which brewery gets my business... the one with the cutest waitresses... maybe not, but that is something to consider as well.

As far as whats on tap, KISS!! Keep It Simple Stupid... and keep it consistent. Appeal to your local audiance. If the bulk of your city only drinks BMC-light, you are up for a challenge. Will you serve food? That's an additional draw, but full of challenges too. Can you pair with a local food-truck? Area for local entertainment? Movie night on a warehouse wall, corn-hole, darts, billiards, trivia night?
 
What should I have on tap is to me not the first question I would ask. I like the idea of the communal brewery that you are describing, but with any community there will be drama. If you are a drama person you may be able to succeed, but it will be as one of three archetypes that fair well in anarchy - The Business Man, The Enforcer or The Producer.
 
As some people pointed out, you need to differentiate and be able to understand the demand. Recent acquisition and consolidation has really changed the economics of entering this market.
If I were you, I’d not buy a storefront. Buy a storage depot where real estate is cheap. And open an online etailer where you sell sour beer in 750mLs and ship for free. Minimum price $15 per bottle.
Sour beer drinkers are less price sensitive since it takes years to make the more complicated sours. You would be serving an area of new development that many brewers arent stepping into since the cycle time is too long (and doesnt meet the rate of return considering their storage costs for an inner city brewery).
You might call the sour beer market somewhat untapped.
 
jimmyjusa said:
There is a shared taproom and i believe there are a few taps reserved for each on site brewer plus other commercial beers are served as well.
Click to expand...

If you only have two taps and the other brewers are cranking out IPA's, you could jump on the bandwagon and do the same, or offer something different. Maybe a lager or a Kolsch. Not everyone wants an IPA, but if your beer doesn't sell, you won't be able to pay your bills.
The above scenario looks more like a "liquid art project" than a plan for an actual business that is sustainable. Having 3 or more brewers compete for the same customers in the same space doesn't really sound all that great to me.
 
I was going make some comment on what you should brew, ..but more constructively; maybe if you already have experience running a business, and have the brewing down, you have a chance. Would not try to learn how to do both at once.
 
Food for thought as I have looked into this a little bit --- it would be great to have a cider on tap however some states consider cider in the wine category so you need both a winery and brewery license to do both.
 
It varies by area but do some research on what sells in your area. Brewing a world class Belgian or pilsner, doesn't mean you will ever sell a pint of it. In my area, the pubs are 80% turpentine flavored hop bombs, being sucked down by wierdo's with neckbeards, horn rim glasses and dreadlocks.

It's all about fad's now, not quality. If you can shove 150 IBU's into anything (it doesn't require malt, used motor oil or urine works just fine, the neckbeards wont know the difference), and give it a cool name like "Alien Phlem" or "Hop Smeg", it will sell.

Oh, don't forget some midevil artwork. Skulls and zombies make beer taste better and the more cool the artwork, the more people will pay for it.
 

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