Batch #9 with No Sanitizer!!!

[Bacchus]

About a month and a half ago I cooked up an Irish Blonde. While the wort was boiling, I reached for my bottle of Clorox and it was bone dry. I decided, "What the hell! I'm always talking about how sanitizing is taken to extremes and here's a chance to show, once again, that I'm right." And so I used ZERO sanitzer. I just blasted like mad with hot water.

Tonight I popped the top on my first beer of that batch. It's crisp and clean and has a really nice alcohol punch to it. It was as good as any beer that I've brewed WITH sanitizer!

This makes batch number 9 or 10 that I've brewed successfully without sanitizer.

I post this not to fly in the face of anyone. I post it to make the noobs understand that if I can brew a great batch of beer with "hot water only" sanitizing......they should relax whenever they think they've made some major mistake. Beer brewing ain't as complex as some would have you believe. LOL!!!

 

[danweasel]

Nice. I got in a fight with a guy about putting neosporin on your kids every time they get cut. "How are you going to gain any immunity if you don't every get exposed to germs?' I say. This is KIND of the same thing, right? Because brews are like kids? Hmmm...

 

[Veinman]

Glad to hear it worked out OK. Though still a noob I have found the pre-brewing advice stems from the "better safe than sorry" train of though. I would suggest in the long run your brews will run a slightly higher risk of infection but the odds are still really low.
My conclusion is try and do your best to sanitize to put the odds in your favor but if you forget a spot here or there you're still probably OK.
Not criticizing but would be interested to see if your practices change if and when you lose your first batch to infection or if you chalk that up to the price you pay for the convenience of no sanitizer, or if you chalk it up as unavoidable.

 

[Letstryscience]

I suppose not sanitizing is like coitus interruptus. You love it till the first time it does not work.

 

[whalenutz]

your my new heero

 

[lustreking]

I brewed at a public homebrewing demonstration last year, and after my fermenter was half full, I realized that I never sanitized it. Since I like to tightly control my fermentation temps, I planned on pitching my yeast when I got home. So I didn't pitch my yeast in the wort until at least 4 hours later, and it was a lager, too so it took quite a while for it to really get going.

The result is one of the best beers I've ever brewed.

 

[Soonerbourne]

I suppose not sanitizing is like coitus interruptus. You love it till the first time it does not work.

LMAO

Personal experiences came to close to the mark there.

 

[boswell]

I too take a more relaxed than most position on brewing. .. good to see someone reaping the rewards. Maybe this can show that the "I ____________MY BEER TODAY, WILL EVERYTHING BE OKAY?" threads aren't always necessary.

 

[northernlad]

I too take a more relaxed than most position on brewing. .. good to see someone reaping the rewards. Maybe this can show that the "I ____________MY BEER TODAY, WILL EVERYTHING BE OKAY?" threads aren't always necessary.

Especially since no one could possibly know the outcome.

 

[doctorRobert]

Although it's always better to be safe than sorry.... but they've been brewing beer for far longer than they knew what sanitization even was. Isn't there an old legend about how beer has been historically safer to drink than water? If the water wasn't even clean, and people were able to make beer out of it, that's a pretty strong argument for the resilience of beer.

 

[McGarnigle]

Although it's always better to be safe than sorry.... but they've been brewing beer for far longer than they knew what sanitization even was. Isn't there an old legend about how beer has been historically safer to drink than water? If the water wasn't even clean, and people were able to make beer out of it, that's a pretty strong argument for the resilience of beer.

True, but the beer may not have been entirely safe either. They didn't live as long as we do.

 

[EO74]

I tend to be less anil once the beer has alcohol, i never sanitize kegs just clean em store em an rinse em. Every couple of brews ill take em appart and soak everythingI cant help rinsing the bubbles from star san out of my carboy either but i figure a little more water added to the bubbles just enough to get em out cant really affect it too much?? Just my 2 cents

 

[Bacchus]

Not criticizing but would be interested to see if your practices change if and when you lose your first batch to infection or if you chalk that up to the price you pay for the convenience of no sanitizer, or if you chalk it up as unavoidable.

Well my typical practice is to sanitize, of course. It's such a cheap and easy thing to do, you may as well do it, right? But bear in mind....that was batch #9 with no loss to infection. Let's say that I make one more batch without using sanitizer and it gets infected. That's one batch in ten lost to infection. Ten percent. Not too shabby but I'll bet you that the reality is that I could make another ten or twenty with no losses to infections.

As I stated in my original post; I'm not trying to advocate AGAINST sanitizing. I was just trying to alleviate the fears that so many noobs have about the cleanliness of their brewing equipment. If I can make nine batches of great beer without using a sanitizer, your beer won't be ruined because you scratched your nose and then touched your fermentation bucket. LOL!!!

 

[Bacchus]

I tend to be less anil once the beer has alcohol, i never sanitize kegs just clean em store em an rinse em. Every couple of brews ill take em appart and soak everythingI cant help rinsing the bubbles from star san out of my carboy either but i figure a little more water added to the bubbles just enough to get em out cant really affect it too much?? Just my 2 cents

I have zero faith in leave-in sanitizers. It's just a phobia that I have. I don't like the idea of drinking the residue of a disinfectant. I don't care how much they say "it won't hurt you." I'd rather rinse because I trust my tap water. I've seen what municipalities have to go through on a daily basis to keep their water up to federal standards and even though some may taste more chlorinated than others, municipal water is VERY safe to drink. As for the chlorine.....a good boil will get rid of that.

 

[sonetlumiere85]

I have zero faith in leave-in sanitizers. It's just a phobia that I have. I don't like the idea of drinking the residue of a disinfectant. I don't care how much they say "it won't hurt you." I'd rather rinse because I trust my tap water. I've seen what municipalities have to go through on a daily basis to keep their water up to federal standards and even though some may taste more chlorinated than others, municipal water is VERY safe to drink. As for the chlorine.....a good boil will get rid of that.

Well you must not have much faith in science in general then, either. Nothing wrong with no-rinse sanitizers as long as they're used correctly.

 

[DavidHawman]

Soap and water removes something like 99.9% of bacteria from hands so can see why this is working. However, if someday you do get an infection, you will have to bring back the sanitizer.

 

[DavidHawman]

I have zero faith in leave-in sanitizers. It's just a phobia that I have. I don't like the idea of drinking the residue of a disinfectant. I don't care how much they say "it won't hurt you." I'd rather rinse because I trust my tap water. I've seen what municipalities have to go through on a daily basis to keep their water up to federal standards and even though some may taste more chlorinated than others, municipal water is VERY safe to drink. As for the chlorine.....a good boil will get rid of that.

I don't know why you have zero faith in them. Star-san is an acid which when diluted is no worse than adding a spritz of lemon juice to a glass of water. Iodophor is iodine, an essential nutrient and added to table salt. In fact, as a backpacker I use iodine tablets at a much higher concentration than sanitizer levels to disinfect drinking water to make it safe. Sure it tastes like crap but I'd rather taste iodine than giardia spores.

And many municipalities are moving to chloramine which boiling does not remove.

 

[Bacchus]

Well you must not have much faith in science in general then, either. Nothing wrong with no-rinse sanitizers as long as they're used correctly.

Depends on the "science" you're speaking of. Some science says that we humans are creating global warming. Other science says we're not! Did you know that back in the fifties and early sixties, doctors (and they're scientists) appeared on television and sang the praises about the health benefits of smoking cigarettes? That's a fact. So just because some "scientist" says something is safe doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I'll bet I could find a scientist or two that would agree that the drinking of star-san is bad for you. It's a moot point.

 

[Bacchus]

Soap and water removes something like 99.9% of bacteria from hands so can see why this is working. However, if someday you do get an infection, you will have to bring back the sanitizer.

That's very true but......

What about the people that lose batches to infection even though they cleaned with sanitizer? What do they have bring back? From what I've read, your chances of losing a batch to infection is about the same with our without sanitizer.

Again.....please re-read what I've said....I'm not advocating against using sanitzer. I normally use it!!

 

[Skacorica]

I suppose not sanitizing is like coitus interruptus. You love it till the first time it does not work.

Best. Line. Ever.

 

[bob1852]

As for the chlorine.....a good boil will get rid of that.

What about chloramine (which is what many municipals are using now) - boiling doesn't get rid of that.

And you'd rather drink chlorine than food grade phosphoric acid?

 

[Bacchus]

What about chloramine (which is what many municipals are using now) - boiling doesn't get rid of that.

And you'd rather drink chlorine than food grade phosphoric acid?

My municipality doesn't use it.

 

[DavidHawman]

I'll bet I could find a scientist or two that would agree that the drinking of star-san is bad for you. It's a moot point.

Kind of ironic saying that when you are on a forum for making ethanol, a substance that you can find a myriad of scientists saying is bad for you. Haha

And why I mentioned using sanitizer after an infection is that an infection generates a very large number of problematic bacteria. So while soap and water will work most of the time since the majority of the bacteria are not problematic, after an infection the 99.9% removal rate of soap isn't going to cut it since that 0.1% is enough to cause a repeat infection.

 

[Bacchus]

Kind of ironic saying that when you are on a forum for making ethanol, a substance that you can find a myriad of scientists saying is bad for you.

And why I mentioned using sanitizer after an infection is that an infection generates a very large number of problematic bacteria. So while soap and water will work most of the time since the majority of the bacteria are not problematic, after an infection the 99.9% removal rate of soap isn't going to cut it since that 0.1% is enough to cause a repeat infection.

About as ironic as the people on the forum that swear that using chlorine bleach to sanitize is bad for you! What I'm sensing here is that the Star-San company has a whole lot of loyal customers that don't like their sanitzer of choice being questioned. LOL!!!! Think about it. The fact that I brewed without a sanitzer isn't even the issue any longer. Now it's the fact that something negative has been said about Star-San.

O.k...I take it back. I'm sorry I said anything bad about using Star-San.

 

[bob1852]

About as ironic as the people on the forum that swear that using chlorine bleach to sanitize is bad for you!

where are the people saying that using bleach to sanitize is bad for you?

Many people use bleach & a rinse with no problem.

Many people use no-rinse sanitizers with no problem.

Many people would just rather use something that doesn't require a rinse.

 

[Skacorica]

where are the people saying that using bleach to sanitize is bad for you?

Many people use bleach & a rinse with no problem.

Many people use no-rinse sanitizers with no problem.

Many people would just rather use something that doesn't require a rinse.

and many people would rather not worry about there being any bleach in their beer

But really; why WOULDN'T you use a no rinse sanitizer?

 

[Bacchus]

where are the people saying that using bleach to sanitize is bad for you?

Many people use bleach & a rinse with no problem.

Many people use no-rinse sanitizers with no problem.

Many people would just rather use something that doesn't require a rinse.

I've read TONS of posts wherein bleach was criticized as bad for the beer and bad for the person.

I know that many people use no-rinse sanitizers with no problems. I only stated that I refused to use them. Am I not entitled to say that?

And I'm happy for the people that wish to use no-rinse sanitizers. I wish them all the best! Again.....I only stated that I didn't like the idea of using them. Suddenly it was taken as a personal affront to many people and everything got completely off topic!

Personally I prefer to use bleach when I use a sanitzer and I never have anything to say to the people that harp against using it. They have a right to their opinions!!!

 

[Bacchus]

and many people would rather not worry about there being any bleach in their beer

But really; why WOULDN'T you use a no rinse sanitizer?

I've already stated why I WOULDN'T use a no-rinse sanitizer. You obviously just want me to agree with you because you don't like the idea that someone's not doing it the way YOU'RE doing it. You keep using your Star-San and I'll keep using my bleach and "nothing at all" and we'll both be happy. How's that sound?

 

[Skacorica]

I've already stated why I WOULDN'T use a no-rinse sanitizer. You obviously just want me to agree with you because you don't like the idea that someone's not doing it the way YOU'RE doing it. You keep using your Star-San and I'll keep using my bleach and "nothing at all" and we'll both be happy. How's that sound?

Don't be so defensive; I don't disagree that hot water is in and of itself a good sanitizer; most bacteria should die from properly heated tap water (140 F+). That being said, don't start a thread about how you don't have to sanitize and then not expect to be disagreed with.

I believe quite the opposite of you; I think its good for newbs to paranoid about cleanliness etc because it teaches them good habits.

 

[Bacchus]

Don't be so defensive; I don't disagree that hot water is in and of itself a good sanitizer; most bacteria should die from properly heated tap water (140 F+). That being said, don't start a thread about how you don't have to sanitize and then not expect to be disagreed with.

I believe quite the opposite of you; I think its good for newbs to paranoid about cleanliness etc because it teaches them good habits.

Go back and show me where I said "not to sanitize"! If you'll re-read my posts you'll note that I said sanitizing is cheap and easy and SHOULD be done. Don't tell me not to get "defensive" when you're attempting to twist my posts. Of course I'm going to get defensive.

 

[Skacorica]

Go back and show me where I said "not to sanitize"! If you'll re-read my posts you'll note that I said sanitizing is cheap and easy and SHOULD be done. Don't tell me not to get "defensive" when you're attempting to twist my posts. Of course I'm going to get defensive.

Actually, now its you thats twisting words. I said that you implied sanitization is probably not necessary, not that you said 'not to'

Whatever

 

[Bacchus]

Don't be so defensive; I don't disagree that hot water is in and of itself a good sanitizer; most bacteria should die from properly heated tap water (140 F+). That being said, don't start a thread about how you don't have to sanitize and then not expect to be disagreed with.

I believe quite the opposite of you; I think its good for newbs to paranoid about cleanliness etc because it teaches them good habits.

Furthermore, you only jumped into this conversation whenever your holy Star-San got criticized. So YOU stop being so defensive where your sanitizer is concerned. It's stupid.

Good grief! Some of you guys get plumb silly over that damned sanitizer. Is there some drug hidden inside of it or something? It's like guys will actually go to fist fighting over Star-San. LOL!!!!

 

[Bacchus]

Actually, now its you thats twisting words. I said that you implied sanitization is probably not necessary, not that you said 'not to'

Whatever

Well then do yourself a big favor and in the future, stay off of my threads. You obviously don't agree with how I brew beer. So let's just avoid the head-butting. Fair enough?

 

[Skacorica]

Well then do yourself a big favor and in the future, stay off of my threads. You obviously don't agree with how I brew beer. So let's just avoid the head-butting. Fair enough?

How about for the future you don't imply that nubs will be fine if they don't sanitize, then get offended when people disagree with you and then I won't have to comment on your threads, k, thanks.

 

[Schlenkerla]

FYI - I have a friend who has brewed about 15 years without using sanitizer. He has a practice of cleaning thoroughly before and after brewing. He also has special hot water heat cranked to the max too.

He brews in his basement and hoses everything down walls and floor. He has a ventilation system too to dry things out. Brews in 30 gallon quantities weekly. Has two large scale freezers w/ temp controls and a stock of about 60 cornies. No kidding!!

As far as I know he only has had one infection. Its been in the last year. He brewed a Belgian wheat beer style where he primed and repitched the yeast. He never repitched any of his beers in the past which was strange.

I don't recommend not using sanitizer since I'm not a gambling type nor do I take all the cleaning precautions as he does. He is a bit like the guy in "As Good As It Gets" where Jack Nicholas has to lock and unlock his front door 30 times to make sure its really locked. I don't have time to get crazy cleaning.

Bacchus - I say if it works for you, do it. I would NOT recommend to others to omit this step until they have a basic understanding on the process. To me, this is a measure of how good of a brewer you are to get away without using sanitizer.

BTW - My friend has a bunch of Iowa State Fair Ribbons for brewing.

 

[bob1852]

part of the beauty of homebrewing is different techniques, followed by open debate and discussion.

"Stay off my thread" type discussions don't follow the creedo that most homebrewers follow.

I'm sorry that your skin is so thin. But when you post something about "I made 9 or 10 batches without sanitizing - take that!" you should expect some debate.

And, there's more than one type of no-rinse sanitizer - you seem to be against Star-San for some reason; but there's also various iodine based no rinse sanitizers.

I just know that by using a sanitizer (whether it be bleach, Star-San, Iodophor, or something else), I'm eliminating a variable (i.e. possible infection) that will make crappy beer.

 

[bob1852]

And, what do you expect when you title a thread "Batch #9 with No Sanitizer!!!"?????

Do you expect lots of pats on the back? I don't get it.

One of the most basic principles of homebrewing is to minimize your risk of infection.

 

[Bacchus]

How about for the future you don't imply that nubs will be fine if they don't sanitize, then get offended when people disagree with you and then I won't have to comment on your threads, k, thanks.

Fine! As long as in the future you don't jump into a thread with an off-topic argument and then when you get your little fanny spanked, run back to the topic to try and defend your actions. K? Thanks.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I believe quite the opposite of you; I think its good for newbs to paranoid about cleanliness etc because it teaches them good habits.

I have to agree with this 100%. Sani like a MOFO!!!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Fine! As long as in the future you don't jump into a thread with an off-topic argument and then when you get your little fanny spanked, run back to the topic to try and defend your actions. K? Thanks.

Bacchus - Calm down man! No need to get riled here.