barleywine clone

[milkflakes]

I'm a new brewer and have only done a few kits but I want to start consuming mostly my own beers. I started brewing because I found a Brooklyn Brew Shop kit and kettle on the sidewalk after Christmas 19 and figured why not. Made a couple IPAs for my mom which she really liked, some failed ciders I couldn't even ask anyone to drink, and now I have a chocolate porter and hopefully not failed cider in primary while I plan some other things.

Last year a coworker of mine gave me a can of Nightmare Brewing's Torn Apart By Trees, which is a "15% barleywine with birch and black cherry bark, sarsaparilla, ginger, dandelion root, and licorice root aged on Tahitian vanilla." It was really amazing and to be honest in my memory just tasted like big boy Dr. Pepper.

I want to make a similar brew and don't want to screw it up by adding gross stuff or overloading it with birch or something. I took a look at some guides on barleywine and saw that Northern Brewer's regular barleywine extract kit maxes out just over 9%. It comes with 12 lbs amber malt syrup plus 2 oz Cascade and 1 oz Willamette hops. I figure my options here are to do something like boost the kit with like 6 pounds of amber DME while cutting it down to 4 gallons or make my own very similar recipe using the same syrup plus extra DME and probably add about 4 oz of Fuggle hops to have a BU:GU of like .6. Either way I want to use WLP099 and make a starter. I don't know how long it will take to ferment so I'll be checking at around a month with my refractometer to see if I start getting constant readings.

What I mainly am wondering about is adding those Dr Pepper-y flavors. I thought it would be best to pare it down to vanilla, black cherry, and birch. Possibly some ginger. I have never flavored a beer before but I am planning on putting raspberry Brewer's Best in a cream ale before I do this one. I also wanted to avoid secondary if possible since I don't have canned CO2 or anything.

My idea was to do this: put 2 pounds of dried cherries, an ounce of crystallized ginger, and a scraped out vanilla bean in enough vodka or maybe everclear to submerge the day before brewing. Then just pour the wort (4 gallons) over this mixture in the fermenter before I pitch. When bottling, add birch beer extract just until I can taste it. An ounce or two? As well as priming sugar and a bit of extra yeast (I'm planning on banking to cut costs) from a mini starter of 100 ml or so. Then I'd taste in 6 month intervals. The worst case scenario I want to avoid is having overpowering or artificial flavors in it, since this is going to be pretty expensive to make. If I end up without a ton of extra flavor and just have a nice barleywine I'll be happy too and I can just make another batch and adjust amounts. I was thinking of using actual birch bark, maybe in the boil, but I don't know where to source it, it looks like health people online are selling it as a supplement and that seems like something to avoid.

tl;dr, how does this sound:
4 gal water
12 lbs amber LME
6 lbs amber DME
2 oz Cascade/1 oz Willamette (Cascade for 60 mins, Willamette for 15) OR 4 oz Fuggle (Fuggle would be split evenly for 60/15 mins)

In primary:
2 lbs dried black cherries
1 oz crushed crystallized ginger
1 scraped vanilla bean
WLP099 from starter

When bottling:
2.5 oz table sugar
small amount of WLP099
1 oz birch beer extract (or more until I can detect it)

Age and taste at 6 month intervals.

Any advice to either help with flavoring or cut unnecessary costs is super welcome as well as anything I'm mistaken about here or possible issues. Also, would it be rude to message the Nightmare brewing guy and see if he'll give me more info about the process/ingredients?

 

[Thomas John]

I'm a new brewer and have only done a few kits but I want to start consuming mostly my own beers. I started brewing because I found a Brooklyn Brew Shop kit and kettle on the sidewalk after Christmas 19 and figured why not. Made a couple IPAs for my mom which she really liked, some failed ciders I couldn't even ask anyone to drink, and now I have a chocolate porter and hopefully not failed cider in primary while I plan some other things.

Last year a coworker of mine gave me a can of Nightmare Brewing's Torn Apart By Trees, which is a "15% barleywine with birch and black cherry bark, sarsaparilla, ginger, dandelion root, and licorice root aged on Tahitian vanilla." It was really amazing and to be honest in my memory just tasted like big boy Dr. Pepper.

I want to make a similar brew and don't want to screw it up by adding gross stuff or overloading it with birch or something. I took a look at some guides on barleywine and saw that Northern Brewer's regular barleywine extract kit maxes out just over 9%. It comes with 12 lbs amber malt syrup plus 2 oz Cascade and 1 oz Willamette hops. I figure my options here are to do something like boost the kit with like 6 pounds of amber DME while cutting it down to 4 gallons or make my own very similar recipe using the same syrup plus extra DME and probably add about 4 oz of Fuggle hops to have a BU:GU of like .6. Either way I want to use WLP099 and make a starter. I don't know how long it will take to ferment so I'll be checking at around a month with my refractometer to see if I start getting constant readings.

What I mainly am wondering about is adding those Dr Pepper-y flavors. I thought it would be best to pare it down to vanilla, black cherry, and birch. Possibly some ginger. I have never flavored a beer before but I am planning on putting raspberry Brewer's Best in a cream ale before I do this one. I also wanted to avoid secondary if possible since I don't have canned CO2 or anything.

My idea was to do this: put 2 pounds of dried cherries, an ounce of crystallized ginger, and a scraped out vanilla bean in enough vodka or maybe everclear to submerge the day before brewing. Then just pour the wort (4 gallons) over this mixture in the fermenter before I pitch. When bottling, add birch beer extract just until I can taste it. An ounce or two? As well as priming sugar and a bit of extra yeast (I'm planning on banking to cut costs) from a mini starter of 100 ml or so. Then I'd taste in 6 month intervals. The worst case scenario I want to avoid is having overpowering or artificial flavors in it, since this is going to be pretty expensive to make. If I end up without a ton of extra flavor and just have a nice barleywine I'll be happy too and I can just make another batch and adjust amounts. I was thinking of using actual birch bark, maybe in the boil, but I don't know where to source it, it looks like health people online are selling it as a supplement and that seems like something to avoid.

tl;dr, how does this sound:
4 gal water
12 lbs amber LME
6 lbs amber DME
2 oz Cascade/1 oz Willamette (Cascade for 60 mins, Willamette for 15) OR 4 oz Fuggle (Fuggle would be split evenly for 60/15 mins)

In primary:
2 lbs dried black cherries
1 oz crushed crystallized ginger
1 scraped vanilla bean
WLP099 from starter

When bottling:
2.5 oz table sugar
small amount of WLP099
1 oz birch beer extract (or more until I can detect it)

Age and taste at 6 month intervals.

Any advice to either help with flavoring or cut unnecessary costs is super welcome as well as anything I'm mistaken about here or possible issues. Also, would it be rude to message the Nightmare brewing guy and see if he'll give me more info about the process/ingredients?

I have only been brewing for @ 4+ years. I've noticed 2 'schools of thought'. One says that more is better. Like people who can't resist pushing buttons, they would throw in the kitchen sink if they could. Remember KISS - I say "if it ain't broken, don't fix it, or you'll fix it till it is ... 8-10 oz hops (on the back end) is plenty!
Best advice .. ferment in primary at least a week, secondary at around 65º. Patience - give it 2-4 weeks. Don't peek daily!

 

[kevin58]

That's an ambitious brew for a beginner. I would recommend first making a standard base barley wine to start with. A standard barley wine is challenging to make as it is. Plus a well made barley wine is pretty damned good without all the extras. After you have mastered making a high gravity beer as your base then you can start adding things.

 

[skibb]

Definitely ambitious and you really should take @kevin58 advice and brew something more simple before jumping into a big 15% abv territory beer.

The issue with extract, although it is great for homebrewing, is that it can taste like extract. And when you are using 2-3 times as much as you would for a standard brew, I think it will be way too apparent and off putting. Big beers like this you really should be doing all-grain imho, and use extract to supplement the extra sugars you need to get the gravity to monster heights.

Also, ditch the liquid yeast for a beer like this - unless you can insure you are pitching at least 2-2.5 mil cell/ml/degree plato you will have one struggling fermentation. I would recommend just throwing in 5-7 11g packs of US05 (trust me its a work horse - i regularly ferment 35-38 plato wort down to 12-15 plato with it). Its way easier and more reliable.

 

[kevin58]

unless you can insure you are pitching at least 2-2.5 mil cell/ml/degree plato you will have one struggling fermentation.

One trick I've learned when making a beer of this size is to abandon traditional starters altogether and make a smaller gravity beer first. Then make your big beer on the day you plan to move the first beer out of the fermenter... leave the yeast cake in the fermenter and just dump the big beer on top of that fresh yeast cake. You are in effect using the first beer as a giant starter.

 

[skibb]

One trick I've learned when making a beer of this size is to abandon traditional starters altogether and make a smaller gravity beer first. Then make your big beer on the day you plan to move the first beer out of the fermenter... leave the yeast cake in the fermenter and just dump the big beer on top of that fresh yeast cake. You are in effect using the first beer as a giant starter.

For sure that is one way to do it and yeast management can definitely be a money saver.
However, the ease and effectiveness of dry yeast is just too great to not mention.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

4 gal water
12 lbs amber LME
6 lbs amber DME

OG 175-ish, FG 45-ish (assuming 75% attenuation)

Let's assume that the DME/LME will have a mineral content that is reasonable for 'normal strength' (OG 55-ish ± 20) beers. Mineral content in the DME/LME will vary between the various providers. Some brand(s) are known to have higher than normal mineral content (see the Bru'n Water spreadsheet for details).

Setting aside the idea of "extract taste" (stale LME?, bad recipe?), tripling the OG will triple the mineral content of the wort - which may lead to a severely over mineralized wort.

... or possible issues.

The mineral concentration is likely to be the "show stopper".

 

[bwible]

Going to be an awfully expensive batch with 18 lbs of extract. So its one you really don’t want to be dumping down the drain in a couple months.

There are tricks the professional brewers are doing when they are making blonde barleywines that are 12% or the triple bocks or the Samichlaus brews, etc.

First, 15% is going to be hard because not many of your yeasts can even go there. Many have an alcohol tolerance that tops out at 10%. Then the 1.150 barleywine stops at 1.048 and it turns into a “I have a stuck ferment” thread. Everybody turns to champagne yeast because it has about a 21% alcohol tolerance but champagne yeast is not the best yeast for making beer and there are varied opinions.

Second, they add extra enzymes to a mash like this. You can get Ultraferm or something like that.

With this kind of all grain recipe we are limited by the capacity of our mash tuns. This kind of recipe often must be supplemented with extract. Try to get fresh extract, and I swear by dry extract over liquid. Get the lightest color you can.

One other trick often considered heresy by beer brewers is to substitute a percentage of corn sugar for some of the extract. Normally we strongly oppose the use of corn sugar - but in a big beer like this it will lighten the thickness and provide some extra fermentabilty,

 

[IslandLizard]

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, the OP has been absent since May 25, well over 3 months ago, and hasn't replied even once to this thread. He started out very enthusiastically, let's hope he's OK, and hasn't found time to reply.

But the discussion on brewing Barleywines is very good, please continue, if only for that reason, we can all benefit from it.
I'm about ready brewing a Barleywine batch, again, so some refreshers and different takes on processes is always welcome.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With this kind of all grain recipe we are limited by the capacity of our mash tuns. This kind of recipe often must be supplemented with extract. Try to get fresh extract, and I swear by dry extract over liquid. Get the lightest color you can.

One other trick often considered heresy by beer brewers is to substitute a percentage of corn sugar for some of the extract. Normally we strongly oppose the use of corn sugar - but in a big beer like this it will lighten the thickness and provide some extra fermentabilty,

Another ingredient of interest would be "brewers crystals" - little or no color/flavor, fermentability is similar (75%?) to wort (where table sugar is generally 100% fermentable). Brewers crystals are available in 'home brew' size packages as well as 55 lb bags.

As an example, for a higher OG ale, a combination of sugar / brewers crystals in place of some of the DME will lighten the color and lower the FG (vs a 100% DME wort).

 

[DBhomebrew]

And of course invert sugars in all their variety.

 

[catalanotte]

So here is a interesting idea, although not at all a traditional approach. What about brewing the highest OG your equipment will support and then doing a freeze concentration to the desired strength. I am borrowing this idea from the traditional Eisbock. I brewed an 8% Doppel Bock which is the max capacity of my equipment for a 10g batch (all grain, no sugar additions). I kegged and drank half and then freeze concentrated the other 5 gal down to about 3.5 g and got to 11-12%. The smoothness of this cold conditioning and concentration approach was very good. Took 6-9 month to mature and required some fresh yeast to bottle, but I am thinking about trying this method on other styles. Perhaps a Barley Icewine.

 

[bwible]

Certainly could be done.

White Labs makes the WLP099 which is their Super High Gravity Ale yeast - says very high alcohol tolerance, 15%+.

Wyeast 1728 goes to 12% - thats usually my first choice for a barleywine and I usually don’t push 12%.

 

[skibb]

I regularly use brewer's crystals at my brewery to sure up efficiency inconsistencies and will throw a bag or two into a big ass beer along with DME to hit those gravities north of 1.140's (This is after a 6 hour boil). I am looking for a lot of residual body, so I tend to stay away from the simpler and more fermentable sugars.

 

[bwible]

I do a barleywine every year toward the end of the year. I have 2019, 2020, and 2021 all in bottles now. All American barleywines. I’ve decided this year’s will be an English barleywine and I’m going for right around 9.5% like an Old Nick clone.

 

[skibb]

Certainly could be done.

White Labs makes the WLP099 which is their Super High Gravity Ale yeast - says very high alcohol tolerance, 15%+.

Wyeast 1728 goes to 12% - thats usually my first choice for a barleywine and I usually don’t push 12%.

I've taken a chico strain right past 20% ABV (ala staggered sugar additions).

I use US05 (another chico) for all my imperial stouts and haven gotten it to 15% no problem. Most yeast strains can really push the limit if you treat em well enough. The only yeast that has ever given me crap is S-04 - I haven't been able to get that over 10% much at all