Bag WILL NOT drain. Why?

[HopsAreGood]

So I’ll preface this by saying I’ve done probably over 100 brews with the same brew in a bag set up. I’ve never had any issues with the bag not draining at all, until the last two brews that I’ve done, and I have no idea why. It’s incredibly frustrating and I discussed it with another well respected member here and he can’t seem to figure it out either. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The last brew that I did was no different than any other I’ve done before. Except, when I went to pull the bag it seemed that the grain had completely absorbed the water and was not draining at all. Typically when I pull the bag it’ll start draining pretty quickly and then I put it on top of a grate that sits on top of the kettle. I let it drain for a few minutes and then I squeeze it and that’s it. Super simple and it always goes the same way. This time though, no matter what I did there was no liquid coming through. The bag had blown up like a balloon and was extremely heavy and seemed to just retain all of the grain and all of the liquid. It was suggested that the bag might be dirty or clogged from previous uses so I went ahead and purchased a new bag to try and eliminate the problem completely. (If that was the problem)

Fast forward to today and the same exact thing happened even though I was using a brand new clean bag. Everything I did leading up to pulling the bag was exactly like I’ve done in the past, and I have no idea what is going on. When I pulled the bag it just blew up like a balloon and held all of the liquid and all of the grain in. Even when squeezing the bag it wasn’t coming through, it was just kind of sloshing around inside. It was way way heavier than usual, because obviously nothing was coming out. It’s incredibly frustrating and I’m nervous to even try again because I don’t know why it’s doing this.

I have done all kinds of grain bills with varying levels of high-protein/gummy make ups And never had this problem.

The first batch where I had this problem was :

64% 2-row
18% malted oats
18% spelt

The second batch was:

67% 2-row
33% malted oats

Just for reference I’ve done 50% malted oats in the past, i’ve done 33% 2-row, 33% wheat, 33% oats, etc....And never had this problem.

Can anyone figure out what might be going on?

Also, here are a few pictures of the grain after I dumped it out into the grass. I’m not sure if this will help but who knows.

Thank you in advance!

 

[doug293cz]

Has your thermometer gone bonkers? The spent grain looks like a bunch of gelatinized starch that has not been subjected to significant amylase enzyme action. The only way I can think that this might happen is if your thermometer is reading significantly too low, which would make your mash temps way to high. The high mash temps would denature the enzymes before they could do much useful conversion.

Stick your thermometer that you use to check strike water/mash temps into boiling water. It should read 212°F if you are at sea level, and lower if at high altitude (Denver would be about 202°F.)

Brew on

 

[HopsAreGood]

Has your thermometer gone bonkers? The spent grain looks like a bunch of gelatinized starch that has not been subjected to significant amylase enzyme action. The only way I can think that this might happen is if your thermometer is reading significantly too low, which would make your mash temps way to high. The high mash temps would denature the enzymes before they could do much useful conversion.

Stick your thermometer that you use to check strike water/mash temps into boiling water. It should read 212°F if you are at sea level, and lower if at high altitude (Denver would be about 202°F.)

Brew on

Thank you… I hadn’t thought about this. I use a digital ink bird thermometer and assumed it was fine, but I’ll check it now and see. Fingers crossed…

 

[odie]

looks like oatmeal...all gelatinized...yeah, maybe mashed in way too hot?

 

[HopsAreGood]

looks like oatmeal...all gelatinized...yeah, maybe mashed in way too hot?

Hmmm...that definitely makes sense and would certainly explain things but it looks to be ok. I only stick the probe down a few inches into the water so perhaps it is significantly hotter at the bottom of the kettle? But even so like I said, I’ve done this exact same procedure so many times that I can’t imagine it would be different now.

Today’s strike water was 157 and mash temp was 150 (according to the thermometer in the picture) which is right in line with the typical 7-8 degree drop I get after mashing in.

 

[Biggz1313]

That's a pretty good amount of oats as well, have you ever considered using rice hulls when you have that much oats or wheat in your grist?

Edit: Missed your comment about doing 50% oats in the past and no issues, though I'll agree with others, that close up looks a lot like oatmeal I'd eat for breakfast. Lots of gelatinization there.

 

[HopsAreGood]

That's a pretty good amount of oats as well, have you ever considered using rice hulls when you have that much oats or wheat in your grist?

I haven’t, But only because I’ve never had this problem before. I’ve done grain bills with the same set up, With even higher percentages of oats and this has never happened. Malted oats should actually works similar to rice hulls because they have the husk on them. I would expect a bill with a huge percentage of flaked oats to be a disaster, but malted are different.

And also, I’m talking like no drainage happening at all. I started with 7.5 gallons of total water and after getting the bag out of the kettle there was probably like 1 gallon in the bottom of it. Virtually nothing else was coming out of the bag except for a little driblets here and there.

 

[Biggz1313]

Forgot to ask, if you're not using rice hulls, do you recirculate during the mash? If not, probably not much movement and could be tough for enzymes to reach everything and it's just gelatinizing.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Forgot to ask, if you're not using rice hulls, do you recirculate during the mash? If not, probably not much movement and could be tough for enzymes to reach everything and it's just gelatinizing.

I don’t recirculate. I simply stir it in really good, Put the top on it, and then I cover it with three large moving blankets that are excellent at keeping the heat in. I pretty much always have the exact same temperature after the 60 minute mash as I do right before the top goes on. So that does make sense that the lack of recirculation could be an issue, but I can’t really think that that’s it because it has never been an issue before.

 

[Biggz1313]

I don’t recirculate. I simply stir it in really good, Put the top on it, and then I cover it with three large moving blankets that are excellent at keeping the heat in. I pretty much always have the exact same temperature after the 60 minute mash as I do right before the top goes on. So that does make sense that the lack of recirculation could be an issue, but I can’t really think that that’s it because it has never been an issue before.

Only other thing I can really think is did you get your grains from a new source? is it the same brand you've always bought?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Only other thing I can really think is did you get your grains from a new source? is it the same brand you've always bought?

Same source as always. I’ve been buying grains from there for years. I actually spoke with the owner last week after it happened and then again today and we were both racking our brains trying to figure out what was going on. I am pretty certain that nothing has changed on that front. I’m kind of leaning towards the temperature being an issue but I really can’t see how that would be. It does seem to be the only thing that really makes any sense, But the thermometer seems fine. I also just stuck it under my tongue and my body temperature is right in line with what it should be. 1 degree here or there obviously wouldn’t make much of a difference.

 

[doug293cz]

Did this problem start with a new lot of 2-row? Have both problem batches been the same lot of 2-row? Wondering if you got some base malt that is deficient in enzymes.

Brew on

 

[HopsAreGood]

Did this problem start with a new lot of 2-row? Have both problem batches been the same lot of 2-row? Wondering if you got some base malt that is deficient in enzymes.

Brew on

I suppose this is certainly possible, but I don’t really know that information. When talking to the owner of the shop he didn’t bring up any other customers having the same issue so I would assume that’s not the case, but I really have no idea.

I don’t buy grain in bulk… I simply purchase it batch by batch from the same LHBS Who have always been fantastic. I will say though, I don’t really have any better ideas so it is definitely a possibility.

 

[doug293cz]

Do you still have some of the spent grain? Can you get some amylase enzyme from your LHBS, and reheat some of the "oatmeal" in the microwave to about 150°F, and then add some amylase. If you heat it first and then add the amylase, it should start to thin out rather quickly as the gelatinized starch gets hydrolyzed (converted to shorter chain carbohydrates.) Trying to think of ways to verify if the original mash was enzyme deficient.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

Did this problem start with a new lot of 2-row? Have both problem batches been the same lot of 2-row? Wondering if you got some base malt that is deficient in enzymes.

I was thinking along those lines too.
Can you do a small test mash using the exact same 2-row. Got any leftover from the last time?

Another observation from that heap of porridge, the grist looks very coarsely milled. That will affect speed of conversion too.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Do you still have some of the spent grain? Can you get some amylase enzyme from your LHBS, and reheat some of the "oatmeal" in the microwave to about 150°F, and then add some amylase. If you heat it first and then add the amylase, it should start to thin out rather quickly as the gelatinized starch gets hydrolyzed (converted to shorter chain carbohydrates.) Trying to think of ways to verify if the original mash was enzyme deficient.

Brew on

I do still have access to the spent grain, but not sure if I can do this today.

It would definitely be an interesting experiment though.

 

[HopsAreGood]

@Bobby_M

Just looping you in...definitely some interesting ideas in here.

 

[HopsAreGood]

So the more I think about this, the more I think it MUST be some kind of weirdly enzyme deficient 2-row. The first batch that failed was only a week ago, and then the second was today.

Admittedly, I really don’t know the true science behind all of this, but if one were to try and mash the aforementioned enzyme deficient 2-row, would it behave in the way that I’ve described?

I can envision a scenario in which it would look like every other mash that I’ve done, but just not convert the starches to sugars, and result in poor efficiency. As ive outlined above though, these last two batches were unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before...with the bag literally holding in all of the liquid seemingly trapped in the grain. Does that make any sense?

If an enzyme deficient 2-row is actually the cause, I’ll be quite relieved.

 

[doug293cz]

So the more I think about this, the more I think it MUST be some kind of weirdly enzyme deficient 2-row. The first batch that failed was only a week ago, and then the second was today.

Admittedly, I really don’t know the true science behind all of this, but if one were to try and mash the aforementioned enzyme deficient 2-row, would it behave in the way that I’ve described?

I can envision a scenario in which it would look like every other mash that I’ve done, but just not convert the starches to sugars, and result in poor efficiency. As ive outlined above though, these last two batches were unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before.

If an enzyme deficient 2-row is actually the cause, I’ll be quite relieved.

Yes, I believe a severely enzyme deficient mash would look exactly like your pics of your spent grains. The starch gel will hold a lot of water. Think how much water gets sucked up when you cook rice - what you are physically doing when you cook rice is gelatinizing the starch.

Brew on

 

[HopsAreGood]

Yes, I believe a severely enzyme deficient mash would look exactly like your pics of your spent grains. The starch gel will hold a lot of water. Think how much water gets sucked up when you cook rice - what you are physically doing when you cook rice is gelatinizing the starch.

Brew on

Then I think this absolutely has to be the case. There is nothing else I can think of that could have possibly caused this. Thank you all for your help. I really do appreciate it.

 

[DuncB]

I would consider glucanase if you can get it, helps dissolve all that gumminess and is active at helping lauter and sparge without taking up volume. Works up to about 75 celsius. But agree looks like you made porridge. Probably would taste quite sweet.
You could wash some of the grains with boiling water and then check the gravity as well.
Perhaps try the LHBS 6 row malt instead or have some available to throw in next time if you get a " block " of grain.

 

[TheMadKing]

Has your water source changed suddenly? Or your water treatment regime?

A large shift in pH toward basic just might do this as well by both denaturing enzymes at a higher rate and reducing the rate of proteolysis.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I would consider glucanase if you can get it, helps dissolve all that gumminess and is active at helping lauter and sparge without taking up volume. Works up to about 75 celsius. But agree looks like you made porridge. Probably would taste quite sweet.
You could wash some of the grains with boiling water and then check the gravity as well.
Perhaps try the LHBS 6 row malt instead or have some available to throw in next time if you get a " block " of grain.

Certainly all good points and I appreciate the info. The thing that’s so strange though is that I’ve similar/identical mashed numerous times before with very predictable results. These last two times have however been completely different than anything I’ve ever experienced.

I didn’t end up with a lower efficiency, I ended up with NO wort. NOTHING has changed on my end so I feel like it MUST be something with the grain. Having an enzyme deficient grain makes more sense than anything else.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Has your water source changed suddenly? Or your water treatment regime?

A large shift in pH toward basic just might do this as well by both denaturing enzymes at a higher rate and reducing the rate of proteolysis.

Not that I’m aware of. I use my tap water but I have a ward labs report and build from there. It’s a very neutral profile and unless something has changed that I’m unaware of I doubt that’s it. Again, definitely a possibility though.

 

[TheMadKing]

Not that I’m aware of. I use my tap water but I have a ward labs report and build from there. It’s a very neutral profile and unless something has changed that I’m unaware of I doubt that’s it. Again, definitely a possibility though.

Yeah it was a long shot. Municipal water sources CAN change suddenly but it's pretty unlikely. You got a stumper!

In addition to looking at the 2-row, Could the oats have suddenly changed? Maybe a different brand?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Yeah it was a long shot. Municipal water sources CAN change suddenly but it's pretty unlikely. You got a stumper!

In addition to looking at the 2-row, Could the oats have suddenly changed? Maybe a different brand?

It’s possible, but again doubtful. I’ll reach out to @Bobby_M tomorrow. I know he’s just as curious as I am to figure this out.

 

[BongoYodeler]

It’s possible, but again doubtful. I’ll reach out to @Bobby_M tomorrow. I know he’s just as curious as I am to figure this out.

Any other LHBS nearby? Brew a test batch using grains from a different shop, or from online.

 

[RufusBrewer]

Do you have access to six row malt? Do a couple stove top mini mashes. One with you current two row, one with the six row. Do you see a difference?

 

[jerrylotto]

Back to the water. I would double check your pH. Do you have a treatment system in the house like a softener? Regardless, you will probably want to add Campden to knock out any chlorine/chloramine and phosphoric or lactic acid to drop you pH to around 5.4-5.6. This will only help your mash enzymes to their job better.

 

[superiorsat]

Do you mill your own grains? Hard to tell for sure from the picture as I see a lot of flaked grain but that gel can also come from fine dust of over milled grains. There is one homebrew shop near me that I've only used twice (4 beers worth) that way over mills their grain. Stuck sparges every time you buy from there which is the only times I have ever had a stuck sparge. The girl at the counter says I always use rice hulls no matter what, then laughs. Didn't put 2 and 2 together until the second time I bought from this place. It has been years since I let anyone mill my grains and this was the place that pushed me into milling my own grain. My normal home brew shop does a good job but buying in bulk saves money and milling is in my control now.

 

[superiorsat]

After a second look I guess I don't see a lot of flaked grains but I still think you could be dealing with an over milled situation.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Any other LHBS nearby? Brew a test batch using grains from a different shop, or from online.

There are, But I’ve never had any issues at all. If anything I would probably just brew a batch with Pilsner instead of 2-row and see if that made a difference.

 

[odie]

I doubt it's a grain source issue. How long did you mash? And are you sure about your mash temps?

Looks like a lot of whole grains in your pictures.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Do you have access to six row malt? Do a couple stove top mini mashes. One with you current two row, one with the six row. Do you see a difference?

I do have access to it, but I don’t store or mill my own grains. I simply buy them batch to batch. I suppose I could do this but I would probably just try another full batch using something other than the two row.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Back to the water. I would double check your pH. Do you have a treatment system in the house like a softener? Regardless, you will probably want to add Campden to knock out any chlorine/chloramine and phosphoric or lactic acid to drop you pH to around 5.4-5.6. This will only help your mash enzymes to their job better.

Here is a copy of my ward labs water report:

I always adjust PH using 10% phosphoric acid to 5.25-5.35. I have never had any issue whatsoever with conversion until these last two brews. I use the same online calculator that I’ve been using forever and it has never let me down. I suppose it’s possible that the water has changed, but again I would think that’s highly unlikely. And even if it did change I can’t imagine that it would change so substantially to make such a huge difference.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Do you mill your own grains? Hard to tell for sure from the picture as I see a lot of flaked grain but that gel can also come from fine dust of over milled grains. There is one homebrew shop near me that I've only used twice (4 beers worth) that way over mills their grain. Stuck sparges every time you buy from there which is the only times I have ever had a stuck sparge. The girl at the counter says I always use rice hulls no matter what, then laughs. Didn't put 2 and 2 together until the second time I bought from this place. It has been years since I let anyone mill my grains and this was the place that pushed me into milling my own grain. My normal home brew shop does a good job but buying in bulk saves money and milling is in my control now.

I have been buying my grains from the same shop for several years. As I’ve said I don’t store my own grains, and I simply buy them batch to batch. At this particular store they have two options when buying your grains: Brew in a bag/extra fine, or traditional/false bottom. I have always ordered the brew in a bag crush option and never had these issues. I even spoke with the owner of the shop after the first time and the second time, and that was my initial guess was that maybe the grains were crushed more than they ever have been before. He assured me that nothing has changed in the mill setting, and it’s basically set as fine as it can go. So even if they wanted to crush them further they couldn’t.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I doubt it's a grain source issue. How long did you mash? And are you sure about your mash temps?

Looks like a lot of whole grains in your pictures.

I kind of agree with you. It seems crazy that the grains may be void of the necessary enzymes, but I have to think that it is a possibility. I did a typical 60 minute mash like I always do, and yes I’m very certain of my temperatures. I use a digital ink bird and tested it yesterday in boiling water and it read 212 on the dot, and then put it under my tongue and it was exactly where it should be for my body temperature.

As I’ve said before, i’ve brewed a lot of batches of beer using the same exact method and set up. So it would make sense if the temperature was the issue, but the thermometer appears to be reading perfectly.

Yesterdays strike temperature was 157, and then 150 after mashing in which is right in line with where it usually is. If it were one or two degrees off in each direction it obviously wouldn’t make a huge deal. That being said I really can’t see it being 10, 15, 20 degrees off.

I mentioned yesterday that I only put the thermometer a few inches down into the strike water. The heat source is obviously underneath the kettle so it’s possible it may be much hotter at the bottom. In order to get an accurate reading I do mix the water around and stir it with a big paddle to make sure that it’s as uniform as possible.

Again though, this is the exact process I’ve done before so many times and never had an issue. So even if it is hotter at the bottom of the kettle, it’s never mattered before so I can’t imagine that’s it.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Here are the specifics from yesterday’s disaster...99% of the beers that I make and have had no issues with are extremely similar to this...I really don’t alter too much:

 

[IslandLizard]

Just eyeballing your water and additions, that 95 ml of 10% Phosphoric Acid seems way too high.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Just eyeballing your water and additions, that 95 ml of 10% Phosphoric Acid seems way too high.

It’s definitely a possibility, but I keep coming back to the “it hasn’t been an issue before.” I’ve been using the same calculator for years and routinely put anywhere between 75-95 ml into my starting water.

I use the lovibond function which calculates the amount of grain/amount of water and color of the grains. I make extremely pale beers so it does take quite a bit to get it down. I used to always add a little bit of acid malt but since I stopped doing that the amount of phosphoric goes up.

Also, Im well aware many people will mash in the 5.4 to 5.6 range, but you’ll notice that I go for about 5.25 because I have favorable results with the style of beers that I make. Northeast/hazy IPA.

I’ve probably done 50+ batches using this calculator and mashing at about 5.25 to 5.3.

I could show you countless screenshots like the ones I posted above, with 90, 95, 80, 85 etc. for beers that turned out perfectly.

I always do the calculations ahead of time and then take a few screenshots and save them as I do my brew. So I have a very extensive collection of brewday statistics.