Bad tasting batches

[Brew-Jay]

Hey folks. Not sure where to turn here, because it's going to be hard to describe my problem. My last few batches have had a very weird taste. Like I said, it's hard to describe, but the closest I can come to is a combination of rubbery and metallic (my wife says sour, but I disagree). I noticed it first about 4 batches ago, and each one since has had some level of that off flavor. In an effort to troubleshoot, I tried tasting the water straight from the hose that I use (with filter). Bingo. Or so I thought. The off flavor was definitely similar, but my next batch was brewed with water from the fridge, and after just now tasting a bottle, I notice the same off flavor again. So now I'm thinking infection, but my sanitation process is pretty solid.

Other Details:
- all batches have been BIAB
- I use a counterflow chiller (just ran straight water through it and it tasted fine)
- I use Better Bottle plastic carboys
- I just recently started adding some gypsum to the mash - sometimes but not always
- I've been brewing for a year and a half, so I'm still new, but not that new.

Sorry for fuzzy details, but you know how it is. Ask and I'll answer. And I will accept any wild theories, as I plan to brew on Wednesday.

Oh, and THANK YOU!!

 

[Face Eater]

Rubbery and mettalic kind of sound like what it takes to build a counter flow chiller. Did you run hot water through it, let it cool and taste it or just cold water? Recipes may help but sounds like it may be equipment. Does this taste start right away after brewing or after fermentation? Just trying to figure this out, any and all details may help.

 

[alane1]

Was the water from your fridge store bought or from a dispenser?

 

[k_mcarthur]

I played around with gypsum once for mash adjustments, made my brews taste minerally. Was really undrinkable, ruined a few batches before I stopped and my beer went back to tasting great. In short, don't mess with mineral adjustments without a proper water analysis.

 

[Face Eater]

I played around with gypsum once for mash adjustments, made my brews taste minerally. Was really undrinkable, ruined a few batches before I stopped and my beer went back to tasting great. In short, don't mess with mineral adjustments without a proper water analysis.

+1 to that also, I rarely use it as I don't need it for that much. Also minerally could me described as metallic.

 

[thadass]

What kind of a brew kettle are you using? When was the last time you replaced any vinyl tubing hot wort might be going through?

I would try saving a small bit of wort post-boil to taste after cooling (and maybe diluting a small amount to lessen the overpowering sweetness). Might help identify if it's a pre-fermentation/chilling or post-fermentation/chilling issue.

 

[Brew-Jay]

Thanks for the replies.

- I thought about the gypsum, and I'm not going to mess with that again for a while.
- My kettle is an 8 gal turkey fryer. It has brewed many good batches. I do have some old-ish vinyl tubing that I occasionally soak in boiling water to keep clean.
- I like your idea, thadass, about trying to isolate pre and post boil. I do taste the wort after I test the gravity, and haven't noticed anything, but the sweetness could be masking it.
- I'm also going to switch to a glass carboy.
- I am also so little skeptical about the cfc. I do run boiling water through it before every brew day, but if there is any major gunk in there I would never know, and boiling water might not clear it. I want to start using an immersion chiller, but I can't find all the right parts at HD.

When I do figure this out, rest assured I will post my findings.

 

[Brew-Jay]

Another thought I just had is that maybe I'm not rinsing away the oxy-clean enough. If my kettle, cfc, and carboy have residue from the oxy-clean solution, that might give a bit of a bad taste, right?

 

[Brew-Jay]

Rubbery and mettalic kind of sound like what it takes to build a counter flow chiller. Did you run hot water through it, let it cool and taste it or just cold water? Recipes may help but sounds like it may be equipment. Does this taste start right away after brewing or after fermentation? Just trying to figure this out, any and all details may help.

I just finished running boiling water through the chiller, caught it in a glass and cooled it. I tasted it, and you may be on to something. I'm going to finish my immersion chiller and use that for my next brew. I think this could be it!!

Thank you all for your help. I'll post back when I have results.

 

[phuff7129]

Metallic sounds like water to me. Any idea what your iron and manganese levels are? High levels of these ions can definitely cause a metallic taste. Do your pale beers come out better than dark beers or vice versa? If so that could confirm you have a water chemistry issue.

 

[Brew-Jay]

Metallic sounds like water to me. Any idea what your iron and manganese levels are? High levels of these ions can definitely cause a metallic taste. Do your pale beers come out better than dark beers or vice versa? If so that could confirm you have a water chemistry issue.

I'm not certain what those levels are although I can check the water report online. I have made many good beers before, so I don't think it is the water. It must be something that has changed somewhat recently.

I know the things I'm going to change on my next brew.

1. No gypsum,
2. all fridge water,
3. thoroughly clean oxy-clean off my equipment before using
4. Cool with immersion chiller vice cfc.

 

[phuff7129]

Did the problem start when you started biab or have you had good batches with biab?

 

[BigFloyd]

Certainly drop the gypsum.

Do you know whether or not your water supplier uses chloramine? Some do just during certain times of the year. You can't practically filter it out (that takes hours), so you need to add 1/2 a Campden tab before mashing.

 

[Brew-Jay]

I have done several good BIAB batches before the problem started. In fact, the order of batches went something like this: 10 good, 1 bad, 1 good, 1 bad, 1 good, 2 bad. BIAB started at batch 6. The ping-pong of good/bad makes me think one of the plastic carboys has been scratched enough to harbor infections. But I have also see that the hose water tasted bad, and running water through my cfc causes that familiar taste.

That's a good point about water profile being different at different times of the year. I don't have that information, but I can say that at the same time last year, my beers tasted great.

 

[Brew-Jay]

I have done several good BIAB batches before the problem started. In fact, the order of batches went something like this: 10 good, 1 bad, 1 good, 1 bad, 1 good, 2 bad. BIAB started at batch 6. The ping-pong of good/bad makes me think one of the plastic carboys has been scratched enough to harbor infections. But I have also see that the hose water tasted bad, and running water through my cfc causes that familiar taste.

That's a good point about water profile being different at different times of the year. I don't have that information, but I can say that at the same time last year, my beers tasted great.

 

[BigFloyd]

It's good to call your water dept and ask. They should either be able to tell you or direct you to their online test results.

 

[insanim8er]

Another thought I just had is that maybe I'm not rinsing away the oxy-clean enough. If my kettle, cfc, and carboy have residue from the oxy-clean solution, that might give a bit of a bad taste, right?

Is your turkey fryer pot aluminum?

Never use oxyclean on aluminum. Never use abrasives to scrub the aluminum. Majority of the time metallic flavors come from aluminum pots. You want to season an aluminum pot and keep the oxidized (grayish) layer on the pot. If you use oxyclean, it's corrosive to the metal.

It's not enough aluminum to cause you harm (antacids have more in them than what leeches into the beer) but it will impart a metallic flavor.

This could also be the case for your chiller if it's aluminum...

 

[thadass]

That was my primary interest in the kettle as well, steel vs aluminum.

Palmer says, regarding metallic flavors and aluminum:

"Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours."

 

[insanim8er]

That was my primary interest in the kettle as well, steel vs aluminum.

Palmer says, regarding metallic flavors and aluminum:

"Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours."

ya... I am pretty certain it's his use of aluminum and cleaning regimen combined.

But I could be wrong.

 

[TungstenBeer]

ya... I am pretty certain it's his use of aluminum and cleaning regimen combined.

But I could be wrong.

I agree. I looked for a turkey fryer for a while over the summer to get ready for tailgating season, and MANY turkey fryer "pots" are made of aluminum. So Oxyclean is my educated guess as well.

 

[Brew-Jay]

I agree. I looked for a turkey fryer for a while over the summer to get ready for tailgating season, and MANY turkey fryer "pots" are made of aluminum. So Oxyclean is my educated guess as well.

Well I believed my pot is aluminum. And I have been using oxy-clean on it for some time. So that sucks. If I soak it in a Starsan bath will that help reduce the effects of the oxy?

 

[k_mcarthur]

Well I believed my pot is aluminum. And I have been using oxy-clean on it for some time. So that sucks. If I soak it in a Starsan bath will that help reduce the effects of the oxy?

Boil some tap water and the protective "patina" should form by reacting with the minerals in the water.

 

[thadass]

Another thread ( https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/oxiclean-aluminum-black-252770/ ) has the warning "4. Yes. You want oxidation, but this heavy layer might come off in your beer and leave a metallic taste." !

Suggestion to fix is so scub off all the oxidation layer (possibly with the help of a mild acid like starsan) to "new" looking aluminum again and boil water to build a new (thin/non-taste affecting) protection layer.

 

[insanim8er]

Well I believed my pot is aluminum. And I have been using oxy-clean on it for some time. So that sucks. If I soak it in a Starsan bath will that help reduce the effects of the oxy?

No don't use starsan in aluminum either. It's an acid. That's how it sanitizes. It will remove the oxide and also etches aluminum. People will sometimes use their pots to soak bottles or sanitize equipment in starsan, and it will make that aluminum pot look brand new if left in there over night.

Just clean it with soap... Boil water in it and let it get the oxide back and just maintain it with soap. Your pot is used to boil, so there is no need to sanitize it or use harsh chemicals. Just maintain it by cleaning any gunk as soon as you're done. I also recommend not using the green size of a sponge since it's an abrasive. But if you do, just use caution. If you scrub too hard, you notice the sponge rings out a grayish liquid. That's your oxide layer coming off.

I've used aluminum for a long time. I've never had an issue *knock on wood*. I've moved to a blichmann 20gal boilermaker to do larger batches. But I'll still use my aluminum if I want to do 5 gallon batches.

 

[thadass]

No don't use starsan in aluminum either. It's an acid. That's how it sanitizes. It will remove the oxide and also etches aluminum. People will sometimes use their pots to soak bottles in starsan, and it will make that aluminum pot look brand new if left in there over night.

Just clean it with soap... Boil water in it and let it get the oxide back and just maintain it with soap. Your pot is used to boil, so there is no need to sanitize it or use harsh chemicals. Just maintain it by cleaning any gunk as soon as you're done.

I've used aluminum for a long time. I've never had an issue *knock on wood*. I've moved to a blichmann 20gal boilermaker to do larger batches. But I'll still use my aluminum if I want to do 5 gallon batches.

There is a potential that the issue is being caused by the pot being over-oxidised, as that's what the oxiclean would do. That's why the idea of using starsan or similar to remove this issue has come up.

 

[insanim8er]

There is a potential that the issue is being caused by the pot being over-oxidised, as that's what the oxiclean would do. That's why the idea of using starsan or similar to remove this issue has come up.

Maybe... IDK. I've yet to have that kind of issue with my aluminum pot. I keep the oxide and use soap. I haven't removed any oxide.

I'm thinking with his cleaning regimen, it's not overly oxidized.

 

[thadass]

Maybe... IDK. I've yet to have that kind of issue with my aluminum pot. I keep the oxide and use soap. I haven't removed any oxide.

I'm thinking with his cleaning regimen, it's not overly oxidized.

He has used oxi-clean on the pot which you are not supposed to do, as it by design will over-oxidize it. That's one of the main reasons pro brewers (and pro-am homebrewers and homebrewers with the money) love all SS equip, as it can take clean-in-place cleaners like oxiclean/pbw/etc, where aluminum can not.

 

[insanim8er]

He has used oxi-clean on the pot which you are not supposed to do, as it by design will over-oxidize it. That's one of the main reasons pro brewers (and pro-am homebrewers and homebrewers with the money) love all SS equip, as it can take clean-in-place cleaners like oxiclean/pbw/etc, where aluminum can not.

I actually don't think that's the case.

Oxyclean is made mostly of sodium peroxycarbonate. When it decomposes you get an oxygen affect like hydrogen peroxide. That's how it sanitizes.

Once that is gone you're left with sodium carbonate. The elevated pH dissolves the aluminium oxide layer.

 

[Brew-Jay]

I actually don't think that's the case.

Oxyclean is made mostly of sodium peroxycarbonate. When it decomposes you get an oxygen affect like hydrogen peroxide. That's how it sanitizes.

Once that is gone you're left with sodium carbonate. The elevated pH dissolves the aluminium oxide layer.

So I went ahead with brew day as planned last Wednesday. Now today I notice a foam on top of the beer that has been there on some of my previous batches. It is not like the typical krauesen that is mostly white with specks of tan colored yeast. It is completely light brown with a lot of small bubbles it it. I don't remember this problem occurring before I started having off flavors. Is this normal?

 

[insanim8er]

So I went ahead with brew day as planned last Wednesday. Now today I notice a foam on top of the beer that has been there on some of my previous batches. It is not like the typical krauesen that is mostly white with specks of tan colored yeast. It is completely light brown with a lot of small bubbles it it. I don't remember this problem occurring before I started having off flavors. Is this normal?

From what I see, it looks healthy to me.

 

[Brew-Jay]

Update. It has been a full week and there is still a layer of bubbles on the top that is decidedly NOT krauesen. I don't think it's an infection, though, either. I took a sample (SG 1.022!) and tasted it. The metallic flavor is still there. After reading the latest theories I am inclined to agree that it is my use of oxyclean on my aluminum kettle. Tonight I am going to boil water in it for an hour or so.

But now my question is this, has anyone ever had this same problem, and did boiling water solve it for you? I've ruined at least 4 batches, and now I'm thinking of dropping some serious coin on a SS kettle.

Thanks for all your help so far.

 

[yewtah-brewha]

dont use gypsum unless your testing the ph with a tester or ph strips.

 

[yewtah-brewha]

So I went ahead with brew day as planned last Wednesday. Now today I notice a foam on top of the beer that has been there on some of my previous batches. It is not like the typical krauesen that is mostly white with specks of tan colored yeast. It is completely light brown with a lot of small bubbles it it. I don't remember this problem occurring before I started having off flavors. Is this normal?



View attachment 163752

looks normal. do you use yeast starters or pitch dry? I started useing starters and will probaly continue to do so, I had a sour batch once and the only thing I could come up with was fermenting in my bottling bucket w/o sterilising the spigot, I now remove it disasemble it souk in 180-200 degree water for 5 minutes and then reasemble sanitise the bucket as normal, havn't had an issue since.

 

[Brew-Jay]

looks normal. do you use yeast starters or pitch dry? I started useing starters and will probaly continue to do so, I had a sour batch once and the only thing I could come up with was fermenting in my bottling bucket w/o sterilising the spigot, I now remove it disasemble it souk in 180-200 degree water for 5 minutes and then reasemble sanitise the bucket as normal, havn't had an issue since.

I almost always use a starter, but this time I just pitched a vial of WLP001. Normally, the krauesen will subside after 4 or 5 days, but lately I've been seeing this weird bubbly layer last for a couple of weeks. If I gently shake the carboy I see some of the stuff sink down into the beer. I've done about 17 batches and this weird bubbly stuff started right around the same time as the bad flavor (about 4 batches ago).

 

[Brew-Jay]

I'm boiling water in my kettle now. Is there any way to know if the kettle has been conditioned properly other than brewing another test batch? I think I will just do 2.5 gallon batches till I'm confident that the problem is silo lived.

 

[insanim8er]

I'm boiling water in my kettle now. Is there any way to know if the kettle has been conditioned properly other than brewing another test batch? I think I will just do 2.5 gallon batches till I'm confident that the problem is silo lived.

just make sure you have that oxide layer. Palmer has a second in his book about seasoning the pan in the oven at a low temp for a long time.

Also, If your counter flow chiller is aluminum and you use oxyclean on it, you might want to make sure it's taken care of too before running your wort through it.

 

[Brew-Jay]

just make sure you have that oxide layer. Palmer has a second in his book about seasoning the pan in the oven at a low temp for a long time.

Also, If your counter flow chiller is aluminum and you use oxyclean on it, you might want to make sure it's taken care of too before running your wort through it.

Counter flow is copper. But I made a copper immersion chiller just in case. I'm going to do a 3 gal trial run next week to see if boiling water in the kettle worked. I'm pretty much convinced that this is the problem.

 

[Brew-Jay]

The three gallon batch (APA) has finished fermentation. FG appears stable at 1.013 and the sample did NOT exhibit the metallic off flavor. I got kegging equipment for Christmas so I've used this batch as my first kegged beer. I will take another taste after a few days and see if it tastes right.

I'm also beginning to think that the long lasting bubbles on top may be a characteristic of WLP001. This time I just gently swirled the carboy a couple of times over a couple of days and the stuff settled out nicely. I've been using WLP001 almost exclusively for months now. I'll try WLP002 next and see if it does the same thing.

Thank you all for helping me through this. Fingers crossed that it is solved. I will give the definitive answer in a few days.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Why would the counter flow chiller induce that flavors?

 

[Brew-Jay]

Why would the counter flow chiller induce that flavors?

I don't think it did. But I wanted to eliminate that as a potential cause anyway. I suppose the inside could have been filthy even though I try to keep it as clean as possible. There's no telling what's inside those 20 feet of copper. I used it on this last batch, though. I think the problem was that the oxide layer of my aluminum kettle was removed by cleaning it with oxy-clean.