Avoiding Esthers once and for all

[Moody_Copperpot]

Well I've been brewing for about a year now, just got into all grain. My first batch of that was transferred from the primary to the secondary yesterday, actually. In my time with the kits I had some issues with esters for various reasons, but I got that under control for the most part. My last batch I did before all grain was off a recipe with extracts still. Everyone loved it, and it wasn't bad, but I got hints of esters in there that I picked up on. I think I may not have cooled the wort enough. In any case, I see a lot of recipes calling for dry yeast, and others with liquid wyeast, and obviously people use the stuff without a starter plenty without esters, but they are my biggest fear! I hate that I have to wait so long to even see if I have estery beer too. My fermentation temp is good. I have a closet in the basement where it is perpetually around 65 degrees. I'm not doing lagers or anything either. I don't know enough about starters yet, and am looking for the best way to avoid esters using the dry yeast and/or wyeast.
On a side note, I'm transferring to the secondary with an autosiphon and leaving behind as much setiment as possible. That is the correct thing to do, yes? Stupid question, but again,I want to make sure I'm doing all of this correctly.

 

[nutty_gnome]

To avoid Esthers, stay away from old ladies. Also, there is a book in the bible named Esther, so you should avoid that too. Good luck!

 

[Ichthy]

First, esters, not esthers.

Fermentation temp AND yeast variety play a large role in ester formation. What yeast types do you use?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Lager.

 

[crlova2]

I believe you mean ester.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Wow thanks for the great help, everyone!
Definitely appreciate the spelling lesson, that should for sure help with my pitching process, haha

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

But I can completely understand if you didn't want Esther's "flavours" in your beer either.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

First, esters, not esthers.

Fermentation temp AND yeast variety play a large role in ester formation. What yeast types do you use?

Depends. I've used nottigham dry yeast, I used a wyeast last time I did extract, but the particular name escapes me.
The latest batch was higher in alcohol, so I was advised to use belgian strong wyeast for that batch.

 

[rexbanner]

Dude, I know exactly how you feel. Before I had temperature control, I got several batches of estery beer and was always terrified of it happening. I can't stand any banana taste in beers.

Not to worry, if your fermentation room is 65 and you've cooled to ~70 before pitching the appropriate amount of yeast, don't worry about esters. Anything over 1.054 OG should get more than one pack of dry yeast or a starter.

 

[JetSmooth]

If your closet is 65 degrees, your actual fermentation temperature could easily be 75. Fermentaiton produces heat. A good thing to look into is a thermowell and probe so you can tell what's really going on in there.

 

[tunoffun]

The best way to avoid esters is to pitch a high cell count (but not excessive), pitch at or below your fermentation temp, and control your fermentation temperature... preferably on the low end of the yeast's usable range.

ETA: I just saw your post saying you used Belgian yeast last. Yeast strain is also a VERY significant factor in ester production. And belgian strains are made for producing esters... that's what the style is all about. If you're aiming to eliminate esters, your yeast choice was completely wrong.

 

[kryolla]

I use nottingham fermented low ~60

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I hate that banana flavor too, not matter how subtle, it still ruins it for me. So what do you guys do to regulate the temperature? Good to know about the OG thing too and how much yeast to use!
Thermowell and probe...tell me more...

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

The best way to avoid esters is to pitch a high cell count (but not excessive), pitch at or below your fermentation temp, and control your fermentation temperature... preferably on the low end of the yeast's usable range.

ETA: I just saw your post saying you used Belgian yeast last. Yeast strain is also a VERY significant factor in ester production. And belgian strains are made for producing esters... that's what the style is all about. If you're aiming to eliminate esters, your yeast choice was completely wrong.

You're right about the yeast, I was at my local brew store putting together a recipe, and the owner (who is pretty big brew in Cleveland) suggested the Belgian Strong for the beer because of the high gravity.
How do you pitch a high cell count? Again, I know nothing about making starters at the moment. Is this high cell count doable with dry yeast or wyeast without a starter?

 

[Ichthy]

Swamp cooler. I just put my fermentor in an ice chest and use frozen water bottles to keep temps down. In the winter I use an aquarium heater to keep the fermenter warm enough. The temp of the water bath should be +-1-2 degrees of the actual fermentation temp.

Yeast variety makes a huge difference. Stop using belgian yeast if you don't like esters. Notty and wlp0001 are very 'clean' yeasts when fermented cool.

 

[Ichthy]

You're right about the yeast, I was at my local brew store putting together a recipe, and the owner (who is pretty big brew in Cleveland) suggested the Belgian Strong for the beer because of the high gravity.
How do you pitch a high cell count? Again, I know nothing about making starters at the moment. Is this high cell count doable with dry yeast or wyeast without a starter?

mrmalty.com read the starter article and use his pitching calculator.

 

[TipsyDragon]

first get yourself a minifridge, a Ronco ETC, and a thermowell carboy cap. its expensive but if your serious about eliminating off flavors its worth it. you may have to sand down the probe on the Ronco to get it to fit in the thermowell. just don't go overboard with the sanding. this will help you make sure your beer is fermenting at the proper temp. like others have said just because the room is cool doesn't mean the beer is. fermentation produces its own heat.

also go to mrmalty.com it will tell you exactly how big to make your starter OR how many grams of dry yeast or vials of liquid yeast to use.

and like some have said yeast selection also plays a big role in what your trying to do. some yeasts produce more off flavors than others. that's why you typically want to pick your yeast based on the style of beer not just because its your favorite or the LHBS guy said so.

 

[crlova2]

If your closet is 65 degrees, your actual fermentation temperature could easily be 75. Fermentaiton produces heat. A good thing to look into is a thermowell and probe so you can tell what's really going on in there.

Really? I have never heard that a five gallon batch or even a ten gallon batch could 'easily' produce enough heat to be 10 degrees higher than ambient temperature. I am not saying your wrong but I just don't see that happening I mean that seems like it would be on the extreme side rather than the easily attainable side. I have fermented beers at 68 and 70 degrees that have turned out well and I don't think a good beer would come out of 80 degree ferm temps. I have also stuck my calibrated digital thermometer into a actively fermenting ten gallon batch before and it only read a couple degrees above the ambient temp. Like I said you could be right but I just find it hard to believe that small batch fermentation would easily create a ten degree differential.

 

[TipsyDragon]

I have never heard that a five gallon batch or even a ten gallon batch could 'easily' produce enough heat to be 10 degrees higher than ambient temperature.

its an extreme example but it can happen depending on the strain of yeast used. i made a Belgian Golden Strong once and i know for a fact the wort temp was significantly above ambient room temp. maybe not 10 degrees but it was way more than 2.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I did some poking around on here and I still don't totally understand the thermowell thing to be totally honest.
Now for those who have tried the wyeast (the "slap pack") ones, those are stronger than a regular liquid yeast apparently. The packages say that it can handle up to 1.060 OG. In your experience, is this the case?
OH and has anyone ever added yeast to the secondary for any reason? Just curious.

 

[rod251]

Really? I have never heard that a five gallon batch or even a ten gallon batch could 'easily' produce enough heat to be 10 degrees higher than ambient temperature. I am not saying your wrong but I just don't see that happening I mean that seems like it would be on the extreme side rather than the easily attainable side. I have fermented beers at 68 and 70 degrees that have turned out well and I don't think a good beer would come out of 80 degree ferm temps. I have also stuck my calibrated digital thermometer into a actively fermenting ten gallon batch before and it only read a couple degrees above the ambient temp. Like I said you could be right but I just find it hard to believe that small batch fermentation would easily create a ten degree differential.

Last week I brewed a 3 gallon batch of Blonde Ale. The yeast was US-05. I use a fridge with a Johnson Controls external thermostat. Within 48 hours of pitching, the temp in the fridge was 61, but the temp of the wort was 70. Fermentation can and does cause a significant rise in temp. From now on, I'll set my thermostat at 58 for the first few days of fermenting ales.

 

[crlova2]

Last week I brewed a 3 gallon batch of Blonde Ale. The yeast was US-05. I use a fridge with a Johnson Controls external thermostat. Within 48 hours of pitching, the temp in the fridge was 61, but the temp of the wort was 70. Fermentation can and does cause a significant rise in temp. From now on, I'll set my thermostat at 58 for the first few days of fermenting ales.

Did you take into account that your starting wort might not have been 61 degrees? Unless your wort was 61 degrees and your fridge was also 61 then you can't say that the fermentation increased the temp by 9 degrees. I know fermentation causes a rise in temp but I am just saying that if you were to cool the wort to 61 degrees pitch the yeast and then immediately put it in a fridge that was 61 degrees I doubt that the temp would ever get to 70 with a 3 gallon batch.

If the wort was at say 66 degrees and you pitch the yeast then put it in a fridge that is 61 the exothermic reaction is going to make the temperature resist dropping so it would make it seem like the fermentation is creating a 9 degree differential when it really isn't.

These are all estimates btw. And if you did actually pitch the yeast at 61 then I am wrong and the fermentation does actually cause that much of a increase in temp I guess.

 

[Mateo]

Moody,

Here is what you need to do to make great beer every time. Its all about process and control. Develop the process that will result in great beer with your system and control all the other elements.

1. Sanitation - StarSan kills virtually everything. I say this not because you asked, but because I sampled about 20 really bad home-brews recently where sanitation was definitely an issue.

2. Temperature control - $50.00 dollar craigslist fridge with a Johnsons Control to regulate the temp. No other method of control is as easy. You could not pay me to freeze a bunch of bottles everyday, well maybe you could, but why bother.

3. Learn how to make starters with those smack packs and build up some health yeast before pitching. I use a stir plate and build up big starters, because I make lagers. There is never enough yeast in a vial or smack pack to guarantee great results, although this might just happen due to the conditions, however, that is chance.

 

[TipsyDragon]

If the wort was at say 66 degrees and you pitch the yeast then put it in a fridge that is 61 the exothermic reaction is going to make the temperature resist dropping so it would make it seem like the fermentation is creating a 9 degree differential when it really isn't.

after 48 hours the wort would of reached its "lowest temp". it doesn't matter that if it started at 66 or not after 2 days the only thing keeping it above ambient is the yeast activity.

i use a thermowell to get the temp of the actual wort and it always reaches the temp i have the Ronco set at within 24 hours.

 

[TipsyDragon]

I did some poking around on here and I still don't totally understand the thermowell thing to be totally honest.
Now for those who have tried the wyeast (the "slap pack") ones, those are stronger than a regular liquid yeast apparently. The packages say that it can handle up to 1.060 OG. In your experience, is this the case?
OH and has anyone ever added yeast to the secondary for any reason? Just curious.

a thermowell is a long metal tube with one end pinched and welded shut. this used to get the temperature sensor of your Jonson or Ronco ETC down into the wort so you can get the actual temp of the actual wort and not just the ambient temp of the space its sitting in. this allows for way better temp control of the wort.

i would still make a starter with any liquid yeast packs no matter what it says on the package.

there is really no reason to add yeast to a secondary. the whole point of using a secondary is to get yeast out of your beer not put more yeast in.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

Moody,

Here is what you need to do to make great beer every time. Its all about process and control. Develop the process that will result in great beer with your system and control all the other elements.

1. Sanitation - StarSan kills virtually everything. I say this not because you asked, but because I sampled about 20 really bad home-brews recently where sanitation was definitely an issue.

2. Temperature control - $50.00 dollar craigslist fridge with a Johnsons Control to regulate the temp. No other method of control is as easy. You could not pay me to freeze a bunch of bottles everyday, well maybe you could, but why bother.

3. Learn how to make starters with those smack packs and build up some health yeast before pitching. I use a stir plate and build up big starters, because I make lagers. There is never enough yeast in a vial or smack pack to guarantee great results, although this might just happen due to the conditions, however, that is chance.

I only star san., I love the stuff!
As for the starter, do you always use DME or what? I know I've heard of people using sugar even? What's the easiest and most effective method?

 

[TipsyDragon]

I only star san., I love the stuff!
As for the starter, do you always use DME or what? I know I've heard of people using sugar even? What's the easiest and most effective method?

use malt extract. during reproduction yeast create enzymes to break down the sugars in their environment. they make only the kinds they need and in the ratios they need. if your using nothing but table sugar the yeast will indeed grow but only produce the enzymes for that kind of sugar. malt extract and the resulting wort have several different kinds of sugars in it in varying ratios.

if you do use just sugar in your starter then dump the yeast into a beer it will take time for the yeast to adjust their enzyme production and get to work on your wort.

 

[Mateo]

As for the starter, do you always use DME or what? I know I've heard of people using sugar even? What's the easiest and most effective method?

Normally what I do, an I know a lot of people think this is excessive, but I am already brewing on brew day. I calculate my recipe for 6 gallons. 5 goes into the fermentor and the last gallon is mixed with hops and trub. I strain this through a cotton cloth and pour it into 1 pint canning jars. I then boil them for 17 minutes, tighten the tops so they seal as they cool and stick them in the fridge. They last a long long long time. When I want to make a starter I dunk them in starsan, flame the lip and pour them into a flask or jug and put it on the stir plate with some yeast.

When I do not have any canned wort I buy some DME, a few table spoons into the flask with some water and boil it. This is a little more work, but not much. Apples and Oranges.

I would avoid sugar, but if its all you got go for it. There are some claims from the white coats that yeast will adapt to the food they get. Sucrose anf Fructose and Maltose are different somehow, but I just take their word for it. Additionally, cane sugar will give you a distinct smell, maybe cidery.

So since DME is fairly cheap just use that, no off flavors transferred.

Many people will tell you to decant the spent wort that the yeast used to grow in. The sugars will be gone, and very little alcohol as the yeast probably never got to this phase being jacked around all day on the stir plate. It normally does not smell like what the finished product will smell like. I don't bother. I dump all of it into the fermentor. Whatever is off in there disappears in my final product, which sits on the yeast until the bright tank, which might be up to 8 weeks.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I do have a lot to learn about yeast starters and that is some great info!
Is there any type of DME that is preferred? I mean can I get away using a pale DME for most beers? What is the process exactly? I know on the smack packs it says something about adding a certain amount of the dme to water, boiling it, straining it and maybe then adding the smack pack and letting it sit for a few days? I don't remember though, that's just a foggy memory of the instructions I read.

 

[Mateo]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-make-yeast-starter-pictorial-76101/

This one is nice. I would use a lot less DME for mine though and I would step up on a stir plate. But this is a great place to start.

m.

 

[Jester369]

On a couple of occasions I have had violent fermentations that were 10° above ambient, and that was with wort starting below ambient temp. It can certainly happen. That's why I got a fridge for fermenting in.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

That is a HUGE help! What about the type of DME? And 2 cups of water per 1/2 cup of DME is what is recommended? I think on the smack packs it said to use a higher volume of water, but again, I could be totally wrong in the way I'm remembering this.
OH and how do you reused yeast?

 

[Mateo]

I use Extra Light DME because I brew Pilsners and Helles. I would stick close to what you are making, although light DME will work fine for anything.

I am using 3/4 of a pound with 1.5 gallons of water right now making one.

You want the wort to look like light beer.

 

[Moody_Copperpot]

I use Extra Light DME because I brew Pilsners and Helles. I would stick close to what you are making, although light DME will work fine for anything.

I am using 3/4 of a pound with 1.5 gallons of water right now making one.

You want the wort to look like light beer.

How big of a batch are you doing?
That's quite a jump from the 1/2 cup DME and 2 cups of water it says to use in that link that's posted above.

 

[Mateo]

oh right, forgive the lack of clarity.

I canned 5 quarts for future use. I have 1/2 gallon that I am using for a starter and its about 3/4 full. I am going to add about a half quart of yeast slurry to it. You could do the same with a half gallon and a smack pack.

That will make an awesome starter. Don't air lock it. Just foil over the top to cover it.

If you don't have stir plate then you will need to agitate it frequently. A stir plate does that for you.

 

[GuldTuborg]

But I can completely understand if you didn't want Esther's "flavours" in your beer either.

Eww.