Avoided this forum for years because of protein...

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mixedbrewer

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Hello Brewers! I am back to post about a topic I was ridiculed about to the point of leaving. That topic is protein and head retention. For years now I have been under the impression that protein can effect head retention in a good way. I remember listening to a internet show called Brew Strong years ago where they mentioned it, and also seeing something about it in an early version of How to Brew by Palmer. I am just wondering if anyone else out there has come around on this idea? I was a lone wolf in this arena and since I couldn't prove exactly where I got my information I was ridiculed in the forum and in PM to the point of leaving. Since a few years have gone by, I am hoping things are different.

Happy Brewing!
 
Certainly does help. Just curious, what were people saying in the past?
 
Let me expand on this a little bit. I was under the impression that boiling malt extract can reduce the amount of proteins that may have been present in the extract. Given that some of the proteins have been combined or broken in the creation of the extract, the second "protein break" on your stove will combine or damage that many more. I think I was trying to explain why I dont boil my extracts when I dont need to.
 
Ya a lot of people in every hobby get to the point to where they 'know' everything, so anything outside that box is simply unacceptable. Which is complete BS of course. Now I am sure a lot of people will still recommend you do a boil, to make sure everything is sanitary, and also for hop utilization. But hey, if that is working for you, go for it man and teach us a little bit about your method. If it aint broke, don't fix it....
 
If I am doing an extract brew, I will put a little bit of it in up front but at least 2/3 of it in when I flame out. As long as it is over 160 degrees I havent had a problem.
 
Extracts might benefit from boiling, perhaps not for the full hour. This is from How to Brew Chapter 7.2 by John Palmer (emphasis in bold is mine)

"The foam is caused by proteins in the wort that coagulate due to the rolling action of the boil. The wort will continue to foam until the protein clumps get heavy enough to sink back into the pot. You will see particles floating around in the wort. It may look like Egg Drop Soup. This is called the Hot break and may take 5-20 minutes to occur, depending on the amount of protein in your extract. "

If you reliably get clear beer from not boiling extract, reality trumps any theory.
 
mixedbrewer said:
I think I was trying to explain why I dont boil my extracts when I dont need to.
Click to expand...

So, have you noticed better head retention when you don't bring your LME to a full boil? Is that regardless of other recipe factors?
 
Unless you don't boil your extract of course. :pipe: Welcome back. Honestly who cares how you brew if you drink it and enjoy yourself. If you use use a bathtub, your wife's hose for grains, or whatnot. It is all good.
 
Yes, I do get better head retention when I don't boil the extract. Thats the only reason I do it that way, its an extra step. Might be a fluke... but I think it has something to do with not boiling it. My best guess somewhat supported but what is shared above in that I am not boiling the protein out of the already processed malt extract.
 
I didn't see the original "ridicule" you refer to, but "ridiculed to the point of leaving" raises eyebrows for me. I've never seen outright ridicule allowed by the mods. This place is about information exchange, not schoolyard politics.

Having thick skin and accepting dissenting opinion is good advice for any interaction in life though...including internet forums.
 
snccoulter said:
Unless you don't boil your extract of course. :pipe: Welcome back. Honestly who cares how you brew if you drink it and enjoy yourself. If you use use a bathtub, your wife's hose for grains, or whatnot. It is all good.
Click to expand...

LOL...I remember when I told some friends of ours that I was homebrewing. he loved the idea, she wrinkled her nose and asked my wife: Doesn't that stink up your bathroom though? Gross!

Anyway back on topic. I heat (for the mash) and boil my wort...wouldn't that break up these same protein chains being talked about here?
 
jbaysurfer said:
For future reference, forward any questionable PMs directly to a mod or to TxBrew himself. They'll nip that in the bud. :mug:
Click to expand...

I would do this too. Mods can not read the PM's at all so they dont know what is going on unless you make them aware of it
 
Not all protein is the same. Differences in head retention are owed mostly to peptides (super short proteins) or dextrin (longish carbohydrates). Your break is composed of super long proteins (evidenced by the fact that they all tangled together into masses during the breaks).

Filtered beer (or wort) has almost no change in head retention from unfiltered because at 5um or 1um filtration you aren't doing anything much to reduce these teeny tiny amino acid chains, even if you are clearing out microbes and long-chain proteins that make up break material.

You might get more head retention if you don't boil wort, or if you underboil wort. I recall Jamil Z commenting that when he brewed DME without a boil he got a krausen that lasted weeks. I'm not sure that's "head retention" (or desirable) but you see how retaining proteins might lead to more foam because there's more **** to stay in suspension and hold bubbles together. Maybe. It's hard to say in the finished product. Presumably you're going to boil somewhat (whether 20min or 90min), and it's possible JZ's observation had more to do with what happens when you don't even get your DME completely dissolved. It was a silly moment, really, he was basically chalking it up to WLP's West Yorkshire yeast for some reason until he backtracked and mentioned it might have to do with his silly DME experiment.

When someone suggests you don't do a full boil on an extract batch, they're usually suggesting this so you don't over caramelize your extract. This is mainly an issue with partial boils. If you don't do a full 60min, you have some recipe limitations in terms of bittering hops, unless you boil the hops separately (e.g. with steeping grains). I don't know, I don't think it makes much sense unless you really can't get a big pot (or just get two pots)--and I definitely don't think it makes any sense in the context of a head retention conversation. Head retention is purely aesthetic anyway--it's cool, but you don't put your whole brew out of whack just to accomplish it.
 
Not sure about the all grain. I think I might try a small batch of 1/2 boil half 160 all grain and see what happens. Fun with experimentation!
 
Outside the box is what brewing is all about. If you're not willing to try stuff outside the box then quit brewing now.
 
I do a 60 minute boil... I just leave a majority of the extract out until the end.
 
If you're having trouble with head retention or creating foam in syrup, powdered malt brews or in all grain brews, go to an HBS that sells Protein Z. It's albumin. It will do the trick. The word protein is broad. Albumin is a type of protein that's coaguable and easily solubolized with water and heat. It is developed during the protein rest, using certain brewing methods using grain. Other proteins can cause haze and reduce the stability of beer. It's albumin that helps with body and producing foam. Carbonation comes into play, too. If Protein Z is used and it doesn't work, the brewing process is very poor...
 
Head also depends a lot on CO2. If you are brewing stouts or bitters in the bottle at 1.5vol and you don't get head, that's normal. You get head on tap and out of the can because of nitrogen, but that's not a trick you're going to be able to pull, most likely.

I say this with reservations because most new extract brewers brew a lot of stouts (because they're the only beers new afficionados have tried that taste like anything and because they cover up shortcuts/mistakes)--which makes it more likely--but most also probably overcarb them like crazy, so maybe not so much. Seems worth mentioning, though. Head isn't everything (insert sex joke, etc).
 
mixedbrewer said:
Yes, I do get better head retention when I don't boil the extract. Thats the only reason I do it that way, its an extra step. Might be a fluke... but I think it has something to do with not boiling it. My best guess somewhat supported but what is shared above in that I am not boiling the protein out of the already processed malt extract.
Click to expand...

Post a picture of your pint. I'm interested.
 
Its not the best pic, but its a typical head on a stout. Stays pretty good.

stout.jpg
 
Pappers_ said:
There are many many many extract beers that have been boiled for sixty minutes and gone on to win awards at competitions.
Click to expand...

Good for them. My extract beer boils for sixty minutes too... I just leave most of the extract out until the end of the boil. I am not insinuating that you cant get good beer by boiling the snot out of 6 lbs of extract.. I am just saying I choose not to because I like it better my way.
 
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