Automated all in one systems versus a conventional stand... convince me ?

[brewman !]

I'm in the early stages of building a brewstand. Actually, I've spend a ton of time designing, learning and sorting things out and I'm just starting to build it.

I'm a really busy guy. 3 young kids, etc. My brewstand and associated equipment is going to take up a space about 2 feet x 8 feet + dedicated sink and space... quite a bit. We live in a big house, so I have the space, but still...

So I'm accidentally looking at some of the all in one automatic systems. I'd love to having something the size of a trash can that I roll into the kitchen, plug in, dump in ingredients and out pops high quality wort.

But it doesn't seem to be that simple. They (all?) seem to suffer from one or more drawbacks. As far as I can see, they are all basically 2 tier, brew in a bag, no sparge systems, with a pump and a fancy controller.

Issues

- brew in a bag, which I am not fond of, though they do recirculate while mashing
- no sparge, which I am not fond of, though at least some don't use 100% water during the mash. Though some do.
- no chill, which I am not fond of.
- little to no wort concentration during boil
- limited grain capacity
- small batch sizes
- no built in fume/water vapor extraction system

If you are brewing a bigger beer (1.080+) how do you get the wort gravity up if you don't sparge ? I agree that using first runnings will result in a higher gravity, but combined with low(er) efficiency, you'd be using a lot of grain. Combined with limited concentration during the boil, would make it really hard to get gravity up. Combined with a limited grain capacity ????

I don't like no chill. How do you get a good cold break ?

Some of the machines have small batch sizes. I can't be bothered to bottle, other than the occasional bottle to give away or take to a party. I need 6 gallons out of the fermentor to eventually fill a 5 gallon keg after racking and filtering losses.

And some of the machines (Grainfather in particular) don't seem to be very much simpler than running a conventional stand. It seems to perform all the same steps as a stand and needs all the same inputs and actions from the user. So what is one gaining, other than portability ?

Am I missing something ? Is there an all in one that really automates brewing without some or all of these drawbacks ?

To me the current situation is similar to a bread machine. You can make some pretty good bread in a bread machine and its quick and fairly convenient, but it doesn't match making bread from scratch. And if you have a good dough making machine, making it from scratch is fairly convenient.

Having said all that, I'd still love to have a good, automatic all in one machine.

I'm really good at fabrication. I have a pretty decent shop. I'm all ears to ideas on how to modify an existing machine or build one from scratch.

 

[Early8]

You sound like a very busy guy! I won't try to convince you as I am a BIAB brewer. I like the simplicity and love the end product of BIAB personally. I brew all grain single batches inside on an induction range and brew doubles outside. The doubles are about half grain and half DME simply because the bags get heavy. I am not a high Gravity brewer being below 1.060 generally. I do chill my wort with an immersion chiller and don't use pumps. My brew day and cleanup is pretty fast and simple compared to three vessel brewing, and I can brew comfortably even in bad weather. My cost per batch is a little higher, but my effort is a little lower. And I keg my beer because I prefer it to bottled beer. So the questions I would ask are:

Why can't you chill your wort regardless of brewing technique?
Why can't you enjoy concentration from boil off using single or two vessel brewing?
Why does BIAB produce a lesser beer?

FWIW I am intrigued by the Blichman Brew Easy, but not ready to complicate my brew day even that much yet. It would be really cool to be able to park that rig in the closet and wheel it out whenever I felt like it though, inside or out.

I doubt my ramblings are of much use, but just sharing my thoughts on yours....

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It all comes down to what you like and what you can afford. I've been doing eBIAB since July 2014 and proved to myself that there are a lot of BIAB myths out there that simply aren't true. I consistently get 70-72% efficiency, which is less than I was getting from my three their system, but not by much. I haven't had any issues at all with eBIAB producing cloudy wort or beer either, as some folks have reported.

Once I had setup my entire brewing system it takes up hardly any room at all in the brew room. I've brewed for years using a three tier system and had a lot of fun brewing some great tasting beers, but now I see that was a lot more labor intensive than my current eBIAB brewing system.

I can easily brew 10 gallon grain batches of 5.5% ABV beers without having to add DME or sugars to boost the alcohol content. Brewing 5 gallon batches I've had no problem brewing 8.5% ABV beers using only grains, the trick is to get at least a 15 gallon kettle to handle 25 pounds of grain and your mash water. No matter which system you choose you're going to be happy brewing on it, enjoy.

 

[Early8]

I only go the DME route when doing double batches because I haven't been motivated to lift 20 plus pounds of grain out of my 20 gallon kettle. It's not about an ABV boost as I like to brew in the 4-5% range and I have not found a flavor benefit enough to motivate me when I double the batch. I think Single vessel brewing is highly under rated, but many others disagree, it is just my opinion. If simplicity and saving time and effort are of interest it's worth exploring.

 

[brewman !]

Why can't you chill your wort regardless of brewing technique?

You can, if the system has a pump. Usually you'll have to add the counterflow chiller and, of course, the connection to tap water.

Why can't you enjoy concentration from boil off using single or two vessel brewing

1) Some of the self contained systems have insufficient power to do a really good boil. 2) Some of the self contained systems don't have a vent space in the boiler lid, so they contain the vapor. 3) None of them come with a ventilation system, thus vapor (steam) will build up in the brewing space.

Why does BIAB produce a lesser beer?

1) because the wort will be cloudy if its not circulated. 2) because efficiency is going to be poorer than a regular sparge. I don't like using DME. 3) Because dealing with lifting the grain bag out and squeezing it and emptying it seems like a bigger pain than using a mash tun.

FWIW I am intrigued by the Blichman Brew Easy, but not ready to complicate my brew day even that much yet. It would be really cool to be able to park that rig in the closet and wheel it out whenever I felt like it though, inside or out.

I few the same way about the portability, but lets not forget it takes more than that stack to do a brew. Aside from the stack you need a heat source (propane, or a 240V plug), a ventilation system, if indoors, a counterflow chiller, tap water, grain mill, pump(s), etc.

All that stuff will need to be drug out of the closet every time you brew. Plus having the mash tun on top of the boil kettle is not as nice as having it beside the boiler and its nicer to have the boil kettle up higher. The Brew Easy seems to drop the mash liquid down into the mash kettle before it goes through the "tower of power" and back into the mash tun. Much potential for oxidation and it greatly adds to the volume of wort outside the mash itself, which makes it harder to crank out a higher gravity brew.

I doubt my ramblings are of much use, but just sharing my thoughts on yours....

To the contrary... discussion of viewpoints is good.

 

[brewman !]

Brewing 5 gallon batches I've had no problem brewing 8.5% ABV beers using only grains, the trick is to get at least a 15 gallon kettle to handle 25 pounds of grain and your mash water.

Holy crikey that is a lot of grain !

8.5% is a 1.075 wort fermented to 1.010. 5 gallons x 75 points = 375 points total. At 30 points per pound, that is 12.5 to 15 pounds of malt.

I love Belgium doubles and various strong beers. I need good efficiency.

 

[brewman !]

These don't look simpler or less work than brewing on a 3 vessel single tier system. They do take up less room.

I keep thinking that I could roll one of these systems into my kitchen and brew there, but as soon as there is a pump transferring (sticky) liquids, I don't want them on my kitchen floor. I keep coming back to a single tier system in a semi dedicated space.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqiQ--VzzaA[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY29_865C8o[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmkRuLdLH5U[/ame]

Another advantage of a traditional system is that you can start a second batch while the first batch is boiling, especially if you have 2 boil kettles.

 

[JB_Brewing2]

Aside from possibly cost, what issues do you perceive with the Brewha BIAC?

My research suggests that the issues mentioned other than ventilation are non-existent with this system. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I ordered one last week.)

I'm just returning to brewing after a significant break. In the past I did all grain brews on a three vessel gravity system. I can appreciate your desire to go smaller and save time which was my intent with the purchase of the BIAC.

 

[brewman !]

Aside from possibly cost, what issues do you perceive with the Brewha BIAC?

My research suggests that the issues mentioned other than ventilation are non-existent with this system. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I ordered one last week.)

I'm just returning to brewing after a significant break. In the past I did all grain brews on a three vessel gravity system. I can appreciate your desire to go smaller and save time which was my intent with the purchase of the BIAC.

Interesting concept.

I'm not sure that my wife would allow me to install a winch in our kitchen.
http://brewhaequipment.com/blogs/brewinfo/15812137-lifting-the-biac-mash-colander-out-of-the-3-in-1

So the cold break and hop debris gets dumped out fo the "fermentor" via the bottom valve ? The cold break won't be as good as it would be with a counterflow chiller.

I do most of my brewing in the winter. My season is short. I'd be racking after a week so I could use it for the next batch.

Its certainly compact. I'd permanently mount the pump to the stand and hard plumb the lines as much as I could.

I need to take a closer look.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Another advantage of a traditional system is that you can start a second batch while the first batch is boiling, especially if you have 2 boil kettles.

This is about the only argument that has absolutely no flaws. This coming from a long-time 3-tier gravity fed brewer (about 20 years). I have just started experimenting with BIAB but I can say that if I were to start fresh, I would go eBIAB.

The efficiency argument really only starts to become and issue, once you have you process dialed in, at about 1.060 and higher. For example, I did a 1.045 beer and ended up with 80% brewhouse eff on my first try.

The ventilation is a challenge no matter what system you use indoors.

eBIAB is probably as simple as it gets for automation DIY with a single PID, single element (assuming 220V) and a single pump. Sure, you have to program your steps and use a timer. Same for hop additions.

Size restrictions are only an issue if you have not spot for a lift pulley or buy too small a pot or do not have 220V available.

Sufficient boil-off is a function of how you sized the heat source.

So what to do you want to build, what are your priorities, how much volume do you want to brew, how often and what is you budget. These things as well as you desire/ability to DIY parts of the system will determine what should build.

 

[JB_Brewing2]

You share the same concerns that I had. My wife definitely won't a allow a hoist in the kitchen. I've been banished to the garage. Yeah, bottom dump for yeast and probably smaller hop debris but I'll be using their stainless hop basket which should retain a majority of the hop material. It's jacketed too so no other chiller needed. As you mentioned the need to brew sooner, I anticipate that in the future I'll be investing in a conical fermenter in order to free up the system for doing another batch.

 

[Rock_Toy]

Might want to also look into the Brew_Boss system. Compact, efficient and in my opinion a great product. That's where my money is headed

 

[brewman !]

Might want to also look into the Brew_Boss system. Compact, efficient and in my opinion a great product. That's where my money is headed

Hmmm.... I like that this system does a recirculating mash, although it still doesn't do a traditional sparge. I question if a filtering grain bed (with clear wort) would develop.

Short cuts taken by some of these systems

- full dilution mashes
- lack of wort clarifying recirculation
- lack of traditional sparge
- lack of counterflow chilling

The system you go with depends on the value you put on these process steps. The other factor is how much equipment you want to buy and how much space you want to allocate to store it and run it.

At one end of the spectrum is this process
http://www.steeleconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Bestwaytobrew.pdf

At the other end of the spectrum is the full 3 vessel, mash, sparge and counterflow process/setup.

I will never go no chill. I'm thinking about all the rest.

If the system uses a vessel for the mash tun, then its just a matter of whether it sits next to the boil kettle, on top of it or inside it. Just about all these systems are using a pump to recirculate during the mash, which I feel is a big step up. But it also means you have just about the same equipment as a single tier system.

I do not like full dilution mashes. I also dislike systems that have the mash tun in the boil kettle with a very large volume "underlet" volume under it. Makes it harder to generate a high gravity wort.

Its all about tradeoffs.

 

[Early8]

It's great to see the input flowing. FWIW, I don't use any pumps and the only lift I do, besides the grain bag is a cold pot of water to the range top. I sparge with a gallon of 170 degree water over the grain bag as it sits in a collander. And for chilling I use an immersion chiller. My system is very simple. My indoor kettle is just a 10 gallon mega pot without any valves or fittings. I rack the chilled wort to a carboy with an auto siphon and leave most of the break and hops behind. Ventilation is the biggest challenge for me.

 

[JKoravos]

You and me are eye-to-eye, brewman. I'm not willing to accept the drawbacks (real or perceived) of the single vessel/all-in-one systems. I tried BIAB for several batches and did not like the results compared to my traditional brew stand (3vessel, HERMS, fly sparge). Maybe it was because I was brewing on a different system than I was used to, who knows, I just know the beer wasn't as good. I'm guessing people are making some pretty great BIAB beers or it wouldn't be so popular, it's just not for me.

I also want to have a relatively compact brew system, but rather than going to a single vessel, I'm reducing my batch size. That doesn't work for everyone but with the amount of beer I drink nowadays, I think a 2.5gal system suits me better. I'd rather brew more often and more variety anyway.

I've also been mentally planning a automated brew system for about 10 years, now I'm finally getting to it (as my credit card statement proves :smack.

I'm going with an Arduino controlled direct fired RIMS, fly sparge, plate chiller, integrated whirlpool kettle return, etc. I'll post up a project thread as things start moving ahead.

 

[nanogi]

Hello guys. Here in Argentina we don't have those fancy systems you are talking about (but of course i know them, how they work and their advantages and disadvantages). Point being, what do you enjoy the most of brewing beer?
I personally enjoy buying things for my equipment, tuning every single detail of it, creating a new device to accomplish some task, those kind of things. Each 50 liter (sorry, I'm not familiar with imperial units) batch takes me 8 hours to brew (plus fermentation and beyond). If i had an automated machine (like brewmaister) i would push a button, return and have my beer already made for me. Why don't i just buy it finished instead? Because making all grain beer is marvellous, i still don't get people that use extract to work less, i end up exhausted, but being the happiest person in the world. Design your own machine, brew your own beer, and trust me, the feeling you get when you finally taste it will be 10000000000 times better than if you brewed it pushing 3 buttons.

 

[brewman !]

I don't think you can reduce brewing to a system that does everything we want with pushing 3 buttons or controlling everything from a computer screen. If that were the case, we wouldn't need brewmasters in commercial operations.

For me, brewing is like making bread. A breadmaker will make bread by filling it with ingredients and pushing 3 buttons, but it doesn't compare to the bread I can make by hand or by using a dough mixer to help me make it by hand.

Having said all that, I'm looking for the best "dough mixer" I can find for brewing. Something that gives me all the flexibility to be "the chef" or the brewmaster in this case and yet makes things easy, simple, etc. That is what I was hoping for in an automated system.

The problem with the automated systems is that they all seem to shortcut the "proper" method of making beer - no sparge, fully diluted mash, no chill, etc. Breadmakers do the same thing. Special yeast, loaves rising/baking vertically instead of horizontally, limitations on ingredients, etc. There is a reason that handmade breads can be more versatile and taste and look better than breadmaker breads.

If there was an automated system that did full sparge, proper mash thickness, counterflow chilling, etc. I would be interested. In fact, there is one... its called a single tier 3 vessel system. It takes up more space than an "automated" system, it needs more cleaning, it takes more effort... but it produces more versatile beers and possibly better beers. I'm building one now.

The other fantasy I had was brewing in the kitchen with some magically small, clean, neat system. But as soon as you start circulating the mash or counterflow chilling and such, there is sure to be spillage. And our kitchen has high end hardwood floors. And then there is the ventilation issue, to say nothing of trying to lift and/or strain vessels with 20 pounds of wet grain in them.

So that idea dies, again, for the 13th time, because I keep dreaming of these impossible systems and its not until I wake up and look at the realities that I realize that what I am building is as good as it gets (for me).

Thank you for indulging me in this conversation.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I love my 20 gal EBIAB setup.I hit my numbers if not overshoot most of the time on my 10 gallon batches.I have that magical kitchen hardwood floor setup.I have no issue whatsoever with damage ETC.The venting is another story but Im working on that.And that's only in the winter.Ill be running an extention cord outside the other 3/4 of the year. Counterflow chillers from what I see are going by the waist side to ice bath pond pumps.(don't shoot me, it just seems to be heading that way)My entire setup fits in one box for storage.The hoist and stand get put in the basement No complaints whatsoever,currently drinking the best beer I ever had.Deschutes Fresh squeezed

 

[brewman !]

I love my 20 gal EBIAB setup.I hit my numbers if not overshoot most of the time on my 10 gallon batches.I have that magical kitchen hardwood floor setup.I have no issue whatsoever with damage ETC.The venting is another story but Im working on that.And that's only in the winter.Ill be running an extention cord outside the other 3/4 of the year. Counterflow chillers from what I see are going by the waist side to ice bath pond pumps.(don't shoot me, it just seems to be heading that way)My entire setup fits in one box for storage.The hoist and stand get put in the basement No complaints whatsoever,currently drinking the best beer I ever had.Deschutes Fresh squeezed

I applaud your methods and approach because making beer, any beer is better than not. And I have not brewed in a long time, so kudos to you.

However, you don't appear to have any method to circulate the mash and circulated wort is much clearer than non circulated wort. You've got a ton of stuff going into the boil kettle that needn't be. That messes with flavors (tannins) and hop oil uptake, etc.

Then there is the issue of the counterflow chiller. No immersion chiller will ever generate the hot break that a counterflow chiller will and the use of an ice bath is expensive and complicated compared to tap water chilling, especially when used with a counterflow chiller. Kudos to you for chilling though. Much better than doing no chill.

Like I said before, its all about tradeoffs. As of yet there is no such thing as an "automated" system that doesn't have tradeoffs over the traditional brew stands. And if it doesn't, then its so close to a traditional brew stand in equipment that it might as well be one anyway.

 

[JKoravos]

You seem to be equating 'automated' with 'shortcuts'. I'm not sure why that is, but they are two separate issues. Plenty of people are automating traditional brew stands, it's just a lot more complexity and cost and work than building an automated eBIAB system.

Also, automation doesn't mean you aren't paying attention to the process. I want to automate my system so I can pay MORE attention to the process and not worry whether I'm hitting my temps or if I remembered to turn on the cooling water.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

You seem to be equating 'automated' with 'shortcuts'. I'm not sure why that is, but they are two separate issues. Plenty of people are automating traditional brew stands, it's just a lot more complexity and cost and work than building an automated eBIAB system.

Also, automation doesn't mean you aren't paying attention to the process. I want to automate my system so I can pay MORE attention to the process and not worry whether I'm hitting my temps or if I remembered to turn on the cooling water.

Excellent, excellent points.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I applaud your methods and approach because making beer, any beer is better than not. And I have not brewed in a long time, so kudos to you.

However, you don't appear to have any method to circulate the mash and circulated wort is much clearer than non circulated wort. You've got a ton of stuff going into the boil kettle that needn't be. That messes with flavors (tannins) and hop oil uptake, etc.

Then there is the issue of the counterflow chiller. No immersion chiller will ever generate the hot break that a counterflow chiller will and the use of an ice bath is expensive and complicated compared to tap water chilling, especially when used with a counterflow chiller. Kudos to you for chilling though. Much better than doing no chill.

Like I said before, its all about tradeoffs. As of yet there is no such thing as an "automated" system that doesn't have tradeoffs over the traditional brew stands. And if it doesn't, then its so close to a traditional brew stand in equipment that it might as well be one anyway.

I would put my IC up against any Counterflow chiller out there https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-wicked-retahded-chiller-509170/
I recirculate with a brew spoon:cross:,and have no off flavors Im wondering how the hop oils would make a difference from one system to the next.Its the last thing in the brew day and is the same whether is a 3 tier setup or single vessel setup.Unless Im missing something

 

[Rock_Toy]

Hello guys. Here in Argentina we don't have those fancy systems you are talking about (but of course i know them, how they work and their advantages and disadvantages). Point being, what do you enjoy the most of brewing beer?
I personally enjoy buying things for my equipment, tuning every single detail of it, creating a new device to accomplish some task, those kind of things. Each 50 liter (sorry, I'm not familiar with imperial units) batch takes me 8 hours to brew (plus fermentation and beyond). If i had an automated machine (like brewmaister) i would push a button, return and have my beer already made for me. Why don't i just buy it finished instead? Because making all grain beer is marvellous, i still don't get people that use extract to work less, i end up exhausted, but being the happiest person in the world. Design your own machine, brew your own beer, and trust me, the feeling you get when you finally taste it will be 10000000000 times better than if you brewed it pushing 3 buttons.

Couple of points to make on this.

- You have access to just as many automated, fancy systems as I do. We live in an international marketplace and you can just as easily get anything that I can get. So that is a bad argument. Might be cheaper for me but its still available to you.

- Extract brewing is no less marvelous than Partial or All Grain. Assuming your recipe is followed properly, I am fairly sure that you can produce an extract beer that is identical to an All Grain. Might even get a better batch out of the Extract due to fewer variables.

- You appear to be a purist. Which is fine. But brewing beer is brewing beer, whether you are brewing Extract, Partial, AG and doing it in a pot, BIAB, single, double, triple vessel system or Automated and computer aided.

Are you growing your own barley & hops or taking the easy way out and buying them? As you can tell, there are multiple levels of "purist" as well and in the end, we all do what we can to brew the beers that we love to drink.

I am about to shell out some dough for the Brew-Boss system. Is it the most pure and perfect system out there? Nope, but its space efficient and produces a great product WITH my input. By taking a lot of the tedium out of the equation, I am hoping to be able to focus on the recipes themselves and hopefully refine my beers to the point that people with refined beer palates will appreciate and enjoy. Until then, I'll just keep drinking the swill that I produce

 

[JKoravos]

I would put my IC up against any Counterflow chiller out there https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-wicked-retahded-chiller-509170/
I recirculate with a brew spoon:cross:,and have no off flavors Im wondering how the hop oils would make a difference from one system to the next.Its the last thing in the brew day and is the same whether is a 3 tier setup or single vessel setup.Unless Im missing something

What he was alluding to is that counterflow chillers drop the wort temp much, much faster than any IC could, so you get better break.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

What he was alluding to is that counterflow chillers drop the wort temp much, much faster than any IC could, so you get better break.

That was point.Mine goes from boiling to pitching temp in 10 to 15 minutes on 11 gallons.How much faster can counter flow possibly be? I thought I read counter flow chillers are a pain to clean.Not knocking counterflow chillers,The OP said you "needed" one and Im saying you dont

 

[Onkel_Udo]

That was point.Mine goes from boiling to pitching temp in 10 to 15 minutes on 11 gallons.How much faster can counter flow possibly be? I thought I read counter flow chillers are a pain to clean.Not knocking counterflow chillers,The OP said you "needed" one and Im saying you dont

Immersion chiller man myself so take this for what it is worth.

The arguments for plate or counterflow chillers is that he individual unit of wort is chilled faster causing the cold break to be greater. It is valid but completely unimportant.

 

[brewman !]

You seem to be equating 'automated' with 'shortcuts'. I'm not sure why that is, but they are two separate issues. Plenty of people are automating traditional brew stands, it's just a lot more complexity and cost and work than building an automated eBIAB system.

You are right, I am mis-using the term "automated". What I am speaking of is the "all in one" sort of systems.

Also, automation doesn't mean you aren't paying attention to the process. I want to automate my system so I can pay MORE attention to the process and not worry whether I'm hitting my temps or if I remembered to turn on the cooling water.

Agreed !

 

[brewman !]

Immersion chiller man myself so take this for what it is worth.

The arguments for plate or counterflow chillers is that he individual unit of wort is chilled faster causing the cold break to be greater. It is valid but completely unimportant.

A counterflow takes the individual unit of wort from boiling to close to the tap or circulating water temp in about 10 seconds. Instant cold break. Dump the wort into a sterile vessel, let everything settle out, rack off into the fermenter and wala, you've got really, really clear wort.

Contrast that to the case of not circulating the mash and not counterflow chilling. You'd be amazed at the difference. Two completely different worts.

Furthermore, counterflow chillers make the maximum use of a cold source possible. This is especially important when using a limited cold source like ice water, if you are direct chilling to lagering temps.

FWIW, I've done both.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Furthermore, counterflow chillers make the maximum use of a cold source possible. This is especially important when using a limited cold source like ice water,

I agree with everything but this. Thermodynamics do not change based on if hot is inside cold or cold is inside hot. Given the same surface area and temperature differential, the only variable that immersion has is the temperature stratification due to no stirring.

 

[Namocsid]

I'm in the early stages of building a brewstand. Actually, I've spend a ton of time designing, learning and sorting things out and I'm just starting to build it.

I'm a really busy guy. 3 young kids, etc. My brewstand and associated equipment is going to take up a space about 2 feet x 8 feet + dedicated sink and space... quite a bit. We live in a big house, so I have the space, but still...

So I'm accidentally looking at some of the all in one automatic systems. I'd love to having something the size of a trash can that I roll into the kitchen, plug in, dump in ingredients and out pops high quality wort.

But it doesn't seem to be that simple. They (all?) seem to suffer from one or more drawbacks. As far as I can see, they are all basically 2 tier, brew in a bag, no sparge systems, with a pump and a fancy controller.

Issues

- brew in a bag, which I am not fond of, though they do recirculate while mashing
- no sparge, which I am not fond of, though at least some don't use 100% water during the mash. Though some do.
- no chill, which I am not fond of.
- little to no wort concentration during boil
- limited grain capacity
- small batch sizes
- no built in fume/water vapor extraction system

If you are brewing a bigger beer (1.080+) how do you get the wort gravity up if you don't sparge ? I agree that using first runnings will result in a higher gravity, but combined with low(er) efficiency, you'd be using a lot of grain. Combined with limited concentration during the boil, would make it really hard to get gravity up. Combined with a limited grain capacity ????

I don't like no chill. How do you get a good cold break ?

Some of the machines have small batch sizes. I can't be bothered to bottle, other than the occasional bottle to give away or take to a party. I need 6 gallons out of the fermentor to eventually fill a 5 gallon keg after racking and filtering losses.

And some of the machines (Grainfather in particular) don't seem to be very much simpler than running a conventional stand. It seems to perform all the same steps as a stand and needs all the same inputs and actions from the user. So what is one gaining, other than portability ?

Am I missing something ? Is there an all in one that really automates brewing without some or all of these drawbacks ?

To me the current situation is similar to a bread machine. You can make some pretty good bread in a bread machine and its quick and fairly convenient, but it doesn't match making bread from scratch. And if you have a good dough making machine, making it from scratch is fairly convenient.

Having said all that, I'd still love to have a good, automatic all in one machine.

I'm really good at fabrication. I have a pretty decent shop. I'm all ears to ideas on how to modify an existing machine or build one from scratch.

Have you looked at the Picobrew Zymatics? With the exception of a usual 2.5 gallon batch size it works really well.

I think the "executive chef" analogy hits it just right. You design the recipe and let the brigade in the kitchen do the work of making it...

 

[brewman !]

I agree with everything but this. Thermodynamics do not change based on if hot is inside cold or cold is inside hot. Given the same surface area and temperature differential, the only variable that immersion has is the temperature stratification due to no stirring.

The fact that its counter flow means that the cooling liquid goes from cool to steaming and likewise the wort goes from steaming to cool for the entire cooling period.

With an immersion chiller the cooling liquid goes from cool to the present temp of the wort in the vessel, whatever that might be. And for 90% of the cooling period the wort goes no where near the temp of the coolant, effectively wasting its cold property.

If you are going to run ice water, you'll get a ton more cooling from it if you run it through a counterflow chiller.

Best of all is to run 2 counterflows in serial fashion. 1st stage uses tap water and the second stage uses ice water.

Make sense ?

 

[JKoravos]

I agree with everything but this. Thermodynamics do not change based on if hot is inside cold or cold is inside hot. Given the same surface area and temperature differential, the only variable that immersion has is the temperature stratification due to no stirring.

Counterflows are far more efficient than IC precisely due to the different "thermodynamics" of the two systems.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Counterflows are far more efficient than IC precisely due to the different "thermodynamics" of the two systems.

I think we would need a definition of efficient here. If we are talking speed of getting a given volume of water to pitching temperature...an argument can be made for the counterflow (thought this can get pretty thin unless we are taking 32 f water and wort pumped through a long cfc at a moderately high rate). If we are talking about the amount of ice needed as brewman claims...I disagree.

It is very true that the counterflow nature of the of the counterflow chiller make the "best" use of a unit of water in a given time because it uses the water at its coldest to cool the wort at its coolest. This does not me that it uses less btu's (or Joules or Calories) to do it.

End of internet argument on my end. I think both types have their place based on you personal system design and level of comfort with compromises each method have.

 

[JKoravos]

Yes, it takes the same amount of energy, but the CFC is more efficient at transferring the heat of the wort to the cold water. Although brewman was referring to creating break which the CFC is far better at achieving.

Depending on your situation either one might work 'better' for you.

 

[nanogi]

Couple of points to make on this.

- You have access to just as many automated, fancy systems as I do. We live in an international marketplace and you can just as easily get anything that I can get. So that is a bad argument. Might be cheaper for me but its still available to you.

- Extract brewing is no less marvelous than Partial or All Grain. Assuming your recipe is followed properly, I am fairly sure that you can produce an extract beer that is identical to an All Grain. Might even get a better batch out of the Extract due to fewer variables.

- You appear to be a purist. Which is fine. But brewing beer is brewing beer, whether you are brewing Extract, Partial, AG and doing it in a pot, BIAB, single, double, triple vessel system or Automated and computer aided.

Are you growing your own barley & hops or taking the easy way out and buying them? As you can tell, there are multiple levels of "purist" as well and in the end, we all do what we can to brew the beers that we love to drink.

I am about to shell out some dough for the Brew-Boss system. Is it the most pure and perfect system out there? Nope, but its space efficient and produces a great product WITH my input. By taking a lot of the tedium out of the equation, I am hoping to be able to focus on the recipes themselves and hopefully refine my beers to the point that people with refined beer palates will appreciate and enjoy. Until then, I'll just keep drinking the swill that I produce

Look, first point: in Argentina you CAN'T buy foreign products, imports are BANNED by customs (protectionist law, i don't support it, but that's politics and won't get into it. Bottom line: i cannot access the international marketplace without breaking the law and spending tons of money worth of bribes)
Second point: i am not saying that better beer is brewed in all grain brewing, i'm saying that i enjoy the process, and extract brewing takes the beauty off. If you only brew beer to drink the finished product go ahead, but my point of view is that it is kind of boring to brew it, which doesn't mean it's not correct or shouldn't be done.
Third point: i am not a purist, and agree with you on this one, brewing is brewing. But having the chance to choose, i suggest you chose all grain, it has simply more beauty
Fourth point: i DO grow my own hops and i am experimenting with malting my own barley (i can't grow it because it takes up a lot of space). And also use my own strain of yeast replicated by me. But these are not related to the topic. As i said, to me the beauty of this hobby is in the process, if you can't grow your own hops but can mash some grains do it. If in your country you can only get extract then brew anyways, but having all the chances and possibilities open i wouldn't suggest you chose to push a button to make some wort, it's just not fun, at least to me, and i would like to transmit it, because maybe in 3 months you think "i wish somebody had told me this would get repetitive and boring". Or maybe not, maybe you love it, but at least y know i warned you there is a chance that you may end up disappointed with an automated beer system.
The biggest challenge is to make the best beer with your creativity. If you buy sierra nevada's plant you will probably get an excellent pale ale, but isn't it better to brew it with an equipment designed, constructed and operated by you and only you?
I'm not a purist, i just love to design machines that will fit my needs and produce the best product possible, with the added satisfaction of knowing i built that machine.

 

[brewman !]

Yes, it takes the same amount of energy, but the CFC is more efficient at transferring the heat of the wort to the cold water.

A CFC will use far less water to chill a given amount of wort because all of the cooling water gets heated to TwortIn. With an immersion chiller, the cooling water only gets heated to TwortOut, ie the kettle temp, which falls as the chill proceeds.

Summarizing

- CFCs use less water
- CFCs chill faster
- CFCs creates a much better cold break
- CFCs are more complicated and more expensive
- CFCs are more difficult to clean

 

[nanogi]

Have you tried using a plate chiller?

 

[brewman !]

- Extract brewing is no less marvelous than Partial or All Grain. Assuming your recipe is followed properly, I am fairly sure that you can produce an extract beer that is identical to an All Grain. Might even get a better batch out of the Extract due to fewer variables.

FWIW, according to Dave Miller (Brew Like A Pro) and Gordon Strong (Brewing Better Beer), extract beers cannot compete with all grain beers. They both say it outright in their respective books.

And while we are at it, they both run a conventional mash, they both circulate their mash, they both sparge, they both counterflow chill and they both only brew all grain. DM doesn't believe in decoctions whereas GS is on the line.

Both of these men are smart and experienced. Both of them would like to simplify their brew day as much as possible. However, neither man is interested in taking short cuts that affect quality.

Google is your friend if you don't know who those guys are.

I carried on building my conventional single tier brewstand. I'll keep my eye on the all in one systems for advancements.

 

[brewman !]

Have you tried using a plate chiller?

I bought one, haven't used it yet. Afraid to, afraid of plugging it. I'm probably going to sell it and build a CFC. I sold the one I had... :smack::smack::smack:

 

[JKoravos]

A CFC will use far less water to chill a given amount of wort because all of the cooling water gets heated to TwortIn. With an immersion chiller, the cooling water only gets heated to TwortOut, ie the kettle temp, which falls as the chill proceeds.

Summarizing

- CFCs use less water
- CFCs chill faster
- CFCs creates a much better cold break
- CFCs are more complicated and more expensive
- CFCs are more difficult to clean

If you're recirculating your cooling water (which apparently is common now?) it won't necessarily use less water. A typical IC setup, where the water just goes down the drain, will use much more water. Although the trade-off for squeezing all the cooling power out of your water using an IC is much slower cooling times.

I've been using an IC for years. It uses a metric crap-ton of water.