If you're batch sparging, you don't need to mashout. Just sparge with however much water it takes to reach your desired pre boil volume, stir stir stir, drain the tun and get to boiling.
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I don't include it in my recipes becasue I've found that mashout has no point in batch sparging.
smizak
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Or if your tun is already at capacity, I drain first runnings right into the kettle with a low flame going, denature the enzymes quick.
Exactly. Measure those first runnings and you know exactly how much sparge water is needed to hit your desired volume.
I'm not batch sparging. I am fly sparging for no other reason than that's what the Northern Brewer all grain video showed when I started all grain.
I fly sparge. No good reason, except that's what the Northern Brewer all grain video showed.
Oh ok. So I suppose it depends on your setup. I would think you just fill your HLT with the full amount of water estimated and a little extra just in case and raise the water temp to 168F for mashout. Sparge with that until you hit your target pre boil volume.
I just did my first all grain batch after fifteen years of brewing. It was an all day event which is ok if the end result is superior beer. after I was done I said to myself "We're gonna need a bigger boat" (line from Jaws) LOL especially after sparging which was very messy. Also need more strainer/colanders.
One comment I have is that there was only one full day of active bubbling once fermentation began. I usually get three to four days when brewing with malt extracts. is this common? I'm anxious to find out how it comes out to see if it is worth dedicating an entire day instead of the normal four hours using an extract. what differences can I expect if any?
One comment I have is that there was only one full day of active bubbling once fermentation began. I usually get three to four days when brewing with malt extracts. is this common? I'm anxious to find out how it comes out to see if it is worth dedicating an entire day instead of the normal four hours using an extract. what differences can I expect if any?
What are the advantages of doing all grain versus malt extract? I did my first all grain a few weeks ago (it's still in the second fermentation stage and still very active)) so I haven't been able to drink one yet. It took all day, many pots and a lot of effort. I have been brewing for 15 years now and just want to know if it is worth being locked into an all day brewing process or just 3 1/2 hours with extract brewing.
Backslide
Well-Known Member
You're doing it wrong if it's taking you all day or your fibbing.
Once you get your process down, it doesn't take long. I can do it in under 4 hours if I hurry. The advantages I see are: full control over flavor and fermentability of the wort; grain is much cheaper than extract; it's easy to pull off extra wort to freeze for making future starters without the need to use that nasty DME; satisfaction of DIY which is a big reason I brew in the first place (why warm up canned soup when you can get fresh ingredients and make your own?); more chances for experiments to understand exactly what it takes to make world class beer; and of course drinking world class beer!
From what I understand, you can do BIAB all grain using only one pot. Read up on that method, it sounds very easy.
From what I understand, you can do BIAB all grain using only one pot. Read up on that method, it sounds very easy.
I have a similar history, I brewed extract for 14 years and made the switch to all grain last year. Now I wonder why the hell it took me so long to make the jump. Now that I've got my process down, a normal brew day is around 5 hours. I could probably get that down to 4 or 4.5 if I didn't have to haul all of my gear out of the basement to the back yard and back again every time I brew. Stick with it, you'll be glad you did.
We have been all grain for a while. It does take more time.
Preheat strike = 1.5 hour
Mash + Sparge = 2.0 Hours
Boil = 2.0 Hours
Cool .5 hours
Clean 1 hour
I would say 7 hours minimum with clean up. It normally takes us longer. We sometimes brew two different beers on the same day as it adds only about 30 minutes but we have the equipment. The clean up really not much different than extract as you can clean the Mash Tun while boiling. Once you taste all grain, it is worth the time. Extract now taste "syrupy" to us.
We normally do 23 gallon batches is the reason it takes time to heat the strike.
Preheat strike = 1.5 hour
Mash + Sparge = 2.0 Hours
Boil = 2.0 Hours
Cool .5 hours
Clean 1 hour
I would say 7 hours minimum with clean up. It normally takes us longer. We sometimes brew two different beers on the same day as it adds only about 30 minutes but we have the equipment. The clean up really not much different than extract as you can clean the Mash Tun while boiling. Once you taste all grain, it is worth the time. Extract now taste "syrupy" to us.
We normally do 23 gallon batches is the reason it takes time to heat the strike.
Masonsjax pretty much listed the benefits of going all-grain. I think they're pretty significant, but going all-grain is definitely not necessary for making good beer.
I do all grain batches, and am usually just under 4 hours start to finish, including clean up. And that includes a 90-minute mash and a 75-minute boil, so I could definitely tighten that up if I wanted.
I do BIAB (brew in a bag), no sparge brewing in a single vessel. It couldn't be simpler (or cheaper).
So, if your concern is time and effort, all-grain brewing can be pared down to a pretty simple and efficient process if that's a priority for you. Which (for me) makes it more than worth it.
I do all grain batches, and am usually just under 4 hours start to finish, including clean up. And that includes a 90-minute mash and a 75-minute boil, so I could definitely tighten that up if I wanted.
I do BIAB (brew in a bag), no sparge brewing in a single vessel. It couldn't be simpler (or cheaper).
So, if your concern is time and effort, all-grain brewing can be pared down to a pretty simple and efficient process if that's a priority for you. Which (for me) makes it more than worth it.
OP
OP
I like the cost savings but I most like all grain brewing for the added control I get. On top of that I really love the process. I actually enjoy a 4 or 5 hour brewing session. This may sound weird but an extended brewing session for me is all the better! 
I very rarely mash for more than 30 mins, often only 20 mins. The conversion happens quickly and as long as you crush on the fine side and don't have dough balls, there's no need to go longer. Makes for a shorter brewday if that's important to you. This has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads though.
Maybe there's no need for you to go longer, but there is for me and others. There are advantages to a longer mash.
Of course, but if someone is pressed for time and normally mashes for 90 mins, that might be one place to look for some time savings. I'm just presenting a different approach that also works.
Well I have found I need to add a third step in a third fermentation. There was so much activity and sediment in this brewing process that in order to not have really cloudy beer I needed to add another fermentation process. I will leave it for a week as the second was for two weeks. I'm very anxious to see how this beer comes out but I've still got another 3-5 weeks before it would be ready for consumption. I brew in my kitchen so as of right now don't see how I could do all grain in under 7-8 hours. I think I need a bigger boat...........and strainers for sparging. I guess some additional equipment might be in order. 
Sure, but my experience is that you'll make a different beer that way.
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My first all grain was 11# in a 5G pot, note to self--this leaves zero stirring room. Basically it was a "BIAB partial boil" as I mashed typical 1.2qt/lb and only "sparged" with a gallon rinse and boiled 3.5G for a 5G batch. It really did not take any longer than my usual steeping grains/extract methods but I've been practicing steeping an hour in preparation.
That being said, I can recommend BIAB, even partial boil, I made a Yooper's Haus Pale Ale with some strange "Denny's 50" yeast and it was marvelous.
That being said, I can recommend BIAB, even partial boil, I made a Yooper's Haus Pale Ale with some strange "Denny's 50" yeast and it was marvelous.
My all grain brews have definitely tasted better than my extract brews. I only have 4 or 5 all grain batches under my belt, and it is getting easier. I know if I spend some time testing my equipment, like how much heat I lose to the cooler before I can mash in, I'll cut a lot of time out of brew day. Right now I still spend too much time waiting for overheated water to cool. But really, the better taste is definitely worth it to me. I will say that if I hadn't already bought my 10 gallon coolers, I would definitely consider BIAB.
Interesting. I've not found that to be the case for me. I believe strongly that if more time gives you better efficiency or a different fermentability, there are other things at play, like too coarse of a crush, or not agitating enough before draining. It might make a bigger difference when using less modified malts than the typical high DP bases most of us use these days too. This is straying from the scope of this thread though and has been debated heavily elsewhere.
A lot of great suggestions/info guys! We get a lot of these same questions. We'll need to start pointing people to this thread.
Crucial-BBQ
Well-Known Member
While I agree with the OP, I have a suggestion for #1:
Yes, if you cannot collect the full volume required for a full boil mashing more grain is the way to go if one also then plans to top off in the primary; my point of contention is this:
To the newbie who is already experiencing low efficiency telling him or her that adding more grain, while even though allowing one to reach the desired SG, actually results in a lower efficiency can be a bit confusing. I mean, what you are essentially saying for those who do not have the experience to understand the difference is "If your efficiency is low then by lowering it even more in the end will result in a higher SG".
I think that simply telling the newbie to mash with 10 - 15% more grain to compensate for low efficiency is more straight-forward. As one of my college professors once mentioned to the class concerning essay questions on a particular test; "Keep the answers short and to point. Otherwise by including 'too much information' you run the risk of writing yourself out of a correct answer".
My three suggestions for low efficiency and the new home brewer:
1) Continue to brew with your system and continue to refine and develop your technique with your system. It won't happen overnight but soon enough you will dial in your system and technique.
2) Try step mashing. I know, gasp, puke, time waster, unnecessary... and don't let anyone tell you it is a waste of time.
3) Most who do step mashings, including decoctions, typically report higher efficiencies as a reason to do so. I have read that a possible reason for this is that those who do step mashes have a tendency to give the mash more attention; in particular, stirring often (which, this extra work, is generally the reason many cite against doing step mashing... too much "unnecessary" work), and in general, mixing the mash.
So, perhaps also try stirring the mash periodically.
Yes, if you cannot collect the full volume required for a full boil mashing more grain is the way to go if one also then plans to top off in the primary; my point of contention is this:
To the newbie who is already experiencing low efficiency telling him or her that adding more grain, while even though allowing one to reach the desired SG, actually results in a lower efficiency can be a bit confusing. I mean, what you are essentially saying for those who do not have the experience to understand the difference is "If your efficiency is low then by lowering it even more in the end will result in a higher SG".
I think that simply telling the newbie to mash with 10 - 15% more grain to compensate for low efficiency is more straight-forward. As one of my college professors once mentioned to the class concerning essay questions on a particular test; "Keep the answers short and to point. Otherwise by including 'too much information' you run the risk of writing yourself out of a correct answer".
My three suggestions for low efficiency and the new home brewer:
1) Continue to brew with your system and continue to refine and develop your technique with your system. It won't happen overnight but soon enough you will dial in your system and technique.
2) Try step mashing. I know, gasp, puke, time waster, unnecessary... and don't let anyone tell you it is a waste of time.
3) Most who do step mashings, including decoctions, typically report higher efficiencies as a reason to do so. I have read that a possible reason for this is that those who do step mashes have a tendency to give the mash more attention; in particular, stirring often (which, this extra work, is generally the reason many cite against doing step mashing... too much "unnecessary" work), and in general, mixing the mash.
So, perhaps also try stirring the mash periodically.
BilboBrewin
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much for specifying this! I was about to make a post (will still ramble below) but this answers my question
I live in an apartment building with no outdoor access to brew and have an electric stove that struggles to get 3 gallons to a boil. While I do reach 212F, I only typically see half a gallon boiled off per hour. The mash/sparge water calculator I was using called for 3.5 gallons pre-boil, which 1. wouldn't work with my current kettle and 2. would mean a 2 hour boil. My brew day is already long - it takes my stove a while (an hour or more) to reach strike/sparge temps not to mention boil - and I'd much rather spend a few more bucks on grain than spend another hour plus getting a better efficiency + have to buy a new kettle.
I gotta say, I would love a thread that is nothing but "gotchas" and "experience talking" type things like this. I just bought a bunch of equipment to do all-grain and everything that I can learn up-front like this I feel would be invaluable.
Anybody have a good suggestion for a nice, simple, "hard to screw up" recipe for a first timer? Maybe something a little forgiving?
I expect the first time to go through some learning about hitting temperatures and volumes and I'm fine with that, but wouldn't mind if I got something drinkable out of it as well.
I expect the first time to go through some learning about hitting temperatures and volumes and I'm fine with that, but wouldn't mind if I got something drinkable out of it as well.
Sure. Make a simple 6% smash ipa. Hop the hell out of it with late editions. That should veil most of your mistakes. Lol!
You'd be surprised what lots of hops can hide...
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
Centennial Blonde - you can even just use all Centennial to make it less expensive.
Any smash ale is very forgiving. And even if you don't get everything perfect, it should still be clean and drinkable. I wouldn't personally do anything super hoppy, because if you mask your mistakes, you may not learn much from them.
OP
OP
You are more than welcome!
I've seen a lot of threads started concerning problems with peoples first all grain brews.
I would like to give a couple suggestions that might help improve the process for new AG brewers. Here are a couple common problems I've seen:
1. Low efficiency.
I have found that the most common thread here is not using enough water during mashing and sparging. All you need to do is figure 1 to 1 1/4 quarts of water per pound of grain for the mash and about 1/2 gallon of water per pound of grain for sparging.
I think some folks are concerned about too much wort volume when they are figuring how much water to use but if you want decent efficiency you have to use the correct amount of water.
If your brew pot isn't big enough for the volume required you will need to compensate by using more grain and know that your efficiency will be lower. (You will want to use the 1 to 1 1/4 quart per pound of grain for the mash and adjust your sparge water for the volume required)
If you have a large enough brew pot you will need to calculate the boil time so you will have the correct volume when completed. Some high gravity brews can take 2 hours or more to boil down to the correct volume.
2. Missing the mash temperature. (Usually low when using cooler type mash tuns)
To avoid this common problem there are two things I suggest:
1. Pre-heat your mash tun with hot or boiling water. This water is drained from the tun right before the strike water is added. Using this method will pre-heat the tun so not as much heat will be pulled from the strike water when added .
2. Heat your strike water about 2 or 3 degrees above your target temp, pour the water into the tun, and let the temp drop to your target. By the time you reach your strike temp, the tun should be conditioned and when the grains are mixed in you will hit your desired mash temp and it will hold longer.
I hope this helps for you first timers or even folks who are struggling with AG brewing.
1. I picked up a 40 qt stock pot at local grocer for about $30. Works well.
2. Most coolers have poorly insulated lids. A heavy blanket on top does wonders.
As for mash tuns, I use a large rectangular cooler for 10 gallon or 5 gallon batches with a large grain volume and a standard orange round Igloo cooler for 5 gallon batches.. I drilled 1/4" holes, one one each side of the lid on the top/outside and filled the lids with spray in foam insulation.. Both mash tuns will lose about 1 degree per hour while mashing
My uninsulated coolers also lose 1 degree over the course of a mash. At least in my climate, insulating the lid gains you nothing.
And Im glad it has worked well for you Denny.. I believe what you intended to say, is that it has gained you nothing.. For me, my large cooler was losing 1-2 degrees per hour, and I have some beers that I mash for up to 6 hours.. Also triple decoction mashes that take up to 4 hours..I was able to get it down to a 4 degree drop over 6 hours, so it was a good investment in the small amount of time and money necessary to do it
Veldy
Member
One to two degrees here as well (Minnesota), but I don't brew in the bitter cold...covers me in frost [emoji6]
brhenrio
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Curious if anyone has encountered this before. Just did my first all grain with a new set up. Put altogether about 10 gallons of water through the mash tun. Only wound up with 3 gallons in the fermenter after completing the boil. I was in way too much of a rush so I may not have rinsed my mash good enough. How much water loss to grains is normal? I used a 9 lb grain bill.
Veldy
Member
I was just brewing with a friend of mine who was decocting a bohemian pilsner and he came up short four gallons. It was a complete mystery. Clearly, it's gone, but not clear where he put it.
Somewhere you had to have mismeasured or boiled off or spilled or set aside....it's still a bewildering mystery when this happens.
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