At an all grain crossroads..pls help

[guinnessface]

homebrew talk members-

I'm at a crossroads between kegging/forced carbonation and all grain brewing. I've been extract brewing for several years now and have consistantly come up with mediocre results. Some of the beer is good, but almost always, I'm left with a bit of a bitter/soapy aftertaste and inconsistant carbonation. As always, there's sediment from the bottle conditioning. I usually stay in the realm of brown ales, flavored ales, weiss beers and I hope to try a munich helles or pilsner someday. My aim is to produce a beer that is nearly as good as one I can buy, if not better.

My first question would be: is all grain brewing the first step towards this, or can I get the taste, mouthfeel and color/clarity of a big leage brew from extract? I have a rudimentary understanding of the all grain process and am willing to take the steps to try it out. Do you think this would be the right step, or would skipping all grain and going straight to forced carbonation from extract be a solution? I would first like to eliminate that afteraste (I assume comes from bottle conditioning) and then work on getting clear, smooth beer...weissbeers excluded.

If I were to force carbonate my beer, would I come up with a gassy product like bud/miller lite? Would I have a clear, great tasting beer with no sediment? Would this have to be a combination of all grain and forced carbonation? Additionally, would I have to add minerals to my tap or bottled water?

Please excuse all the tangical questions, I'm just trying to get pointed in the right direction so I can start enjoying the benefits of my hard work.

Thanks in advance,

guinnessface

 

[Randar]

In my extract brewing experience the only detectable difference between my bottle conditioned and kegged/force carb'd beers (I usually bottle some of every batch) is that the clarity of the kegged beer is better because it is sitting at 38-40 degrees constantly from tapping until final consumption.

You can make great beer with extract, although you are more limited in the malt profiles you can really achieve, IMO and extract will have a few limitations on your level of creativity, but I've not had anyone complain about my beers that have been extract based.

So if you're asking if you should next invest in kegging or in going all-grain, I don't know how to answer that question. If you are addicted to this hobby and you know you'll stick with it??? I would probably go AG first. I had an unused fridge and some kegging motivation to avoig the work/time of bottling when I first started so I have been primarily kegging since I began, although I am bottling more and more beer for friends these days.

 

[guinnessface]

thanks a million

 

[Walker]

homebrew talk members-

I'm at a crossroads between kegging/forced carbonation and all grain brewing. I've been extract brewing for several years now and have consistantly come up with mediocre results. Some of the beer is good, but almost always, I'm left with a bit of a bitter/soapy aftertaste and inconsistant carbonation. As always, there's sediment from the bottle conditioning. I usually stay in the realm of brown ales, flavored ales, weiss beers and I hope to try a munich helles or pilsner someday. My aim is to produce a beer that is nearly as good as one I can buy, if not better.

My first question would be: is all grain brewing the first step towards this, or can I get the taste, mouthfeel and color/clarity of a big leage brew from extract? I have a rudimentary understanding of the all grain process and am willing to take the steps to try it out. Do you think this would be the right step, or would skipping all grain and going straight to forced carbonation from extract be a solution? I would first like to eliminate that afteraste (I assume comes from bottle conditioning) and then work on getting clear, smooth beer...weissbeers excluded.

If I were to force carbonate my beer, would I come up with a gassy product like bud/miller lite? Would I have a clear, great tasting beer with no sediment? Would this have to be a combination of all grain and forced carbonation? Additionally, would I have to add minerals to my tap or bottled water?

Please excuse all the tangical questions, I'm just trying to get pointed in the right direction so I can start enjoying the benefits of my hard work.

Thanks in advance,

guinnessface

When I brewed extract, I made some truly excellent beers. In fact, when I switched to AG, it took me a while to get my beers back to the same quality as my extract brews had been because it was such a different process.

Getting the mash and sparge done properly adds a whole new process than you have to get right. With extract, the company producing it (assuming you buy a good brand of extract) knows exactly what they are doing with mashing and sparging, so that process is taken care of for you.

Kegging is a different new process. You can carbonate to whatever levels you want... be it "relatively flat" or "extremely gassy". It's a matter of how you set the regulator on your tank.

If you are getting a bitter soapy aftertaste, I really don't think that has anything to do with bottling your beer, but I am not certain. I also cannot say whether or not switching to AG will or will not help you.

The clarity issue is also (in my opinion) not related to the use of extract or the fact that you bottle. Clarity is mainly dependent on a good hot break, a good cold break, careful racking, and the use of irish moss or some other fining agent when you boil.

It sounds like one or more fairly fundamental things coule wrong with your process if you are consistently having these problems, and I don't know if investing in kegging and/or AG equipment is really an answer.

Back up to the basics....

Do you get a good rolling boil when you brew?

Are you chilling your work rapidly after the boil?

Are you using irish moss during the last 15 minutes of the boil?

Are you carefully racking the beer when preparing to bottle or transferring to a secondary fermenter? (Do you even use secondary fermenters?)

 

[Irrenarzt]

Walker brings up good points. You should revisit your process before moving on to AG. You should be making excellent beer with extracts. In fact, my experience mirrors that of Walker as I was making top quality extract beers when I went AG and it actually took a bit to get back on track when I finished my rig. I would say focus on making great beers with extract and then move on to AG but keg in the meantime. Bottling sucks. Also consider gelatin to clarify your beer a bit better.

Kegging is a good idea regardless. I say invest in a kegging setup and a beergun and bottle only what you need to.

 

[bryanjints]

I made 4 extract batches. The first one was done with problems but turned out great. The next 3 turned out awesome. By the 4th batch I was almost bored and needed more of a challenge. I made the switch to AG for the challenge and to be able to control more of my brew process. Soon I plan to cultivate yeast and maybe some day grow hops.


I don't think the soapy flavor is coming from brewing with extracts. As for the after taste that is most likely going to still be there if you switch to all grain. Something in your process/brewing is most likely causing that problem. It could be your boiling, your equipment, your house, your water. As for sediment on the bottom of the bottle. I have bought plenty of good beer that is bottle conditioned. Getting consistent carbonation is not a problem I have had. Make sure you add your priming sugar to the bottling bucket before you add the beer. I also give it some time (15 minutes) to sit before you start draining it into a bottle.


I would also revist the basics that Walker suggests.

 

[guinnessface]

All good points..... I'll try my hand at extract a few more times before I look for a new challenge. Much appreciated.

 

[stoptime]

Sometimes I think that brewers get better results from going AG because they've invested in some equipment upgrades. For example, you have to do a full wort boil, so you buy a big kettle. Then you need to chill that, so you buy a wort chiller. Etc. Full boils and quick chilling alone will improve your beer. A common "flavor" associated with extract can be "twang" from old LME - lots of guys use dry extract only for this reason - or a mix of dry/liquid. I think bryan is correct about the off-flavors you describe, that's usually a process thing. Check the link below for "soap."
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Personally, I love kegging. I think it keeps the beer fresher, longer (esp. hoppy beers) and it just gets clearer and clearer as you go through the keg. You have total control over the carbonation level - some of my beers I carbonate more than others, you just use a carbonation chart and dial it in. Not to mention you can just dry-hop right in the keg w/ a nylon or hop bag. It's a big step, but I'm glad I did it. Draft beer rocks.

Good luck with whichever way you go!

 

[mattd2]

Another question for Guinnessface is have you got a fridge or something to control your fermenting temps? If not you could look into this as an option to give you a little more control over the final product.

 

[Finnagann]

Good points on process above

If you are going for bud/miller you need to make lagers, light ones with rice/corn/dex ... it sounds like you are making brown ales... not the same thing. Also how careful are you in keeping your sediment out of your beer, ie in transport and pouring. Do you still get that taste if you drink at home and carefully pour the whole beer (minus the last bit with sediment) into a glass/jug?

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

I have to disagree with the majority here. I have to say that after going all grain I have gotten much better results and have been much happier with my beers than any extract brew I have made. I know there are some that will disgree that it is probably my process or I just completely suck as a brewer.

However AG process is identical to my extract process. The only equipment difference is the mash tun lol which is obviously not needed in my extract brews.

Its not that the extract brews were bad ...... they just all seem to have this caramelly taste. Even a pale ale that I tried to make as an extract batch had this taste.

My all grain pale as pretty much identical ingredients and doesn't have this sweet taste that I can never seem to get out of my extract brews (not sure if this is what some refer to as the twang).

I know I know. You can make a perfectly good extract beer better than any all grain. That might be true but I sure as hell can't even to this day.

 

[buzzkill]

how about kegging and start doing a mini mash? best of both worlds..

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

I have to disagree with the majority here. I have to say that after going all grain I have gotten much better results and have been much happier with my beers than any extract brew I have made. I know there are some that will disgree that it is probably my process or I just completely suck as a brewer.

However AG process is identical to my extract process. The only equipment difference is the mash tun lol which is obviously not needed in my extract brews.

Its not that the extract brews were bad ...... they just all seem to have this caramelly taste. Even a pale ale that I tried to make as an extract batch had this taste.

My all grain pale as pretty much identical ingredients and doesn't have this sweet taste that I can never seem to get out of my extract brews (not sure if this is what some refer to as the twang).

I know I know. You can make a perfectly good extract beer better than any all grain. That might be true but I sure as hell can't even to this day.

I must agree, switching to AG I went from making decent tasting brews to excellent tasting beer. I think that going from a partial boil to full boil, as well as upgrading my gear (nice kettle, wort chiller, etc) made a big difference. I enjoy the process more, and the results are great.

Spend the money and go AG, best thing you can do for your beer.

 

[arturo7]

I'm still waiting for an AG as good as my last few extract batches.