Astringency?? Troubleshoot....

[BoRock40]

I'm looking for some help. I've brewed 8 all grain batches and the latest has me stumped. I took a stab at a NE Style Pale Ale/IPA and just bottled last night. Fermented for 4 days at 66 F and added the first dry hop loose with pellets. Waited 4 more days until I thought I had reached FG (1.011) and added the second dry hop, this one in bags. I cold crashed on day 9 to 32 for 36 hours and bottled on day 11. Checked gravity again at bottling and it had dropped again to 1.008. The taste at bottling was super tannic and astringent, almost sucking the moisture off the back of the tongue. Everything was spot on with bittering and aroma on target.

Any ideas what is causing the astringency, if that's what it is? Recipe below:
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.28 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.03 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 45.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9.89 gal NE IPA (Ales of the River Wards) Water 1 -
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 2 3.7 %
8 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 63.0 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 9.3 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5 9.3 %
1 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6 7.4 %
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 7 1.9 %
0.35 oz Magnum [12.30 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 8 13.9 IBUs
12.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.70 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 10 6.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Mandarina Bavaria [6.00 %] - Boil 1.0 mi Hop 11 2.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Pacifica [4.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 12 2.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 13 5.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Mandarina Bavaria [6.00 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 14 2.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Pacifica [4.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20. Hop 15 2.0 IBUs
0.40 oz Citra [12.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 Hop 16 5.6 IBUs
0.40 oz Mandarina Bavaria [6.00 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 17 2.7 IBUs
0.40 oz Pacifica [4.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30. Hop 18 2.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124. Yeast 19 -

Dry Hop #1 - Loose Pellets
0.60 oz Citra [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 8.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs
0.60 oz Mandarina Bavaria [6.00 %] - Dry Hop 8.0 Hop 21 0.0 IBUs
0.60 oz Pacifica [4.50 %] - Dry Hop 8.0 Days Hop 22 0.0 IBUs

Dry Hop #2 - bagged
1.00 oz Citra [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mandarina Bavaria [6.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Hop 24 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Pacifica [4.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs


Any ideas?

Thank you!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

What was your process. Astringency/tannins can be the result of sparging issues. Sparging too much at high temp and/or pH can extract tannins.

 

[RM-MN]

What was your process. Astringency/tannins can be the result of sparging issues. Sparging too much at high temp and/or pH can extract tannins.

It has to be both too high of pH and too high of temperature. You can boil the mash without extracting tannins.

 

[BoRock40]

Thanks!! My process is to mash in a 10gal cooler with false bottom. Built my tap water (see attached for Bru'n Water file) to match Ales of the Riverwards Hop Hands profile (132ppm Ca, 19ppm Mg, 7ppm Na, 147ppm Cl, 146ppm SO4). Hit my mash temp of 152 on the dot tested with a Javelin Digital thermometer. Batch sparge with 168 F water.

This was the smoothest brew day to date. The only miss was OG came in 3 points low at 1.055 instead of the targeted 1.058.

Could the astringent drying taste come from so much hops during dry hopping?View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1490701904.962267.jpg

 

[Norselord]

Rather than providing what the directions for the brew were and what the calculated values should have been, can you summarize what the actual measured variables were?

Obviously there is a discrepancy between the targets and the actual (as evidenced by the low OG).

 

[BoRock40]

Rather than providing what the directions for the brew were and what the calculated values should have been, can you summarize what the actual measured variables were?

Obviously there is a discrepancy between the targets and the actual (as evidenced by the low OG).

I forgot to include that info. Thanks Norse.

Measured variables were;

Mash temp - 152
Ph - seemed like it hit the 5.5 range. Hard to tell on the cheap strips. Assuming I'm okay here because I used the Bru'n Water calculator.

Collected 8 gallons of wort pre-boil instead of 8.25.

PreBoil Gravity - 1.042
Post Boil - 1.055
Post Boil volume was 6.9 gal
Pitched at 65 F
With 6 gallons into fermenter.

Anything I'm missing?

Thanks

 

[BoRock40]

I did not fine with Irish moss during the boil. Just another variable that I strayed from with this recipe/batch.

 

[IslandLizard]

Did you treat you sparge water with acid? If not, the Bicarbonate kept your sparge pH high, hence the tannin extraction.

Have you treated your water for Chlorine/Chloramines?

 

[BoRock40]

Did you treat you sparge water with acid? If not, the Bicarbonate kept your sparge pH high, hence the tannin extraction.

Have you treated your water for Chlorine/Chloramines?

I treated with campden tablets, 1/2 tab for 10 gallons for chloramines/chlorine prior to heating. I did not add acid to sparge water. Just 4 ml to the mash. Could that be it?

 

[IslandLizard]

I treated with campden tablets, 1/2 tab for 10 gallons for chloramines/chlorine prior to heating. I did not add acid to spare water. Just 4 ml to the mash. Could that be it?

Your Campden treatment is apropos. Chlorophenols can give off a harsh taste too, but that's taken care off.

Not sure what it is.

Except for the sparge pH, I don't see anything else standing out in your recipe or process that could cause such a severe astringency as you described. To compound the problem, the half pound of rice hulls is loaded with tannins too. Do you happen to be really sensitive to tannins and astringency? Are you sure you're not confusing bitterness and ultimate hoppiness with astringency? These are extreme beers in their own right.

The relatively high Sulfate level for this style (compared to the Chloride) may accentuate a sharper bitterness, to which some people are more sensitive. You've also got a huge hop load in there, which can also cause a bit of a "raw green vegetable" flavor.

Don't forget, your beer is still young, and not fully carbonated yet. It may all mellow out over the next week or 2.

What bugs me is that it doesn't explain why your previous 7 beers were fine, using a similar process. If the sparge pH is the problem, you undoubtedly would have picked up tannins and astringency in them too.

If you did a single batch sparge, there's still a lot of buffering left in the grist preventing the pH to spike. It's when you start over-sparging where the tannin extraction becomes a real issue.

 

[BoRock40]

Thanks all!

It was a single batch sparge addition of 23.67 qts at 168*.

I am hoping the taste (astringency) whatever it is might be a young beer and maybe hop particles causing the "drying" out sensation. Hoping this clears up (no NE style pun intended) after a couple weeks conditioning. I will report back.

Thanks again

 

[Morrey]

Just being the devil's advocate, but did you by chance get some of that krausen ring that forms on the fermenter wall back into your wort?

 

[plazola86]

Its the dry hops which the flavor will fade in time. From your time line you added the second dry hops on day 8 then started cold crashing day 9 correct? Every time I have dry hopped cold (tried keg hopping a couple time) I get a strong green, astringency flavor. Has anyone else had this experience?

 

[BoRock40]

Just being the devil's advocate, but did you by chance get some of that krausen ring that forms on the fermenter wall back into your wort?

The krausen ring looked to be intact, not in the fermenter but I can't be sure. Does that make an impact? What kind of impact?

Its the dry hops which the flavor will fade in time. From your time line you added the second dry hops on day 8 then started cold crashing day 9 correct? Every time I have dry hopped cold (tried keg hopping a couple time) I get a strong green, astringency flavor. Has anyone else had this experience?

This is what I'm hoping. This was my first time cold crashing that quickly after a dry hop. It was about 36-48 hours after hop addition.

 

[BoRock40]

UPDATE: Checked a bottle last night to see how it was coming along. Carb is still a little low, but expected based on a calculation error on my end but the astringency is completely gone. Juice bomb achieved. Somehow getting a orange, banana, strawberry combination on it. Looking forward to another check in a week or so.


Thanks for all the help everyone!!

 

[kh54s10]

Its the dry hops which the flavor will fade in time. From your time line you added the second dry hops on day 8 then started cold crashing day 9 correct? Every time I have dry hopped cold (tried keg hopping a couple time) I get a strong green, astringency flavor. Has anyone else had this experience?

I have keg hopped a couple of times. I got really good hop flavor and aroma.

The krausen ring looked to be intact, not in the fermenter but I can't be sure. Does that make an impact? What kind of impact?

I have never concerned myself with that and have taken no steps to avoid the krausen on the sides.





This is what I'm hoping. This was my first time cold crashing that quickly after a dry hop. It was about 36-48 hours after hop addition.

 

[plazola86]

I have keg hopped a couple of times. I got really good hop flavor and aroma.

At what temp did you add the hops. Was the beer already cold or did you add the hops then start cooling to serving temps? I hear people have good success with keg hopping and it makes sense in theory but I don't know what Im doing different to get that strong green, astringency flavor. My only guess is adding the hops while the beer is warm then cooling (dry hops and beer) to serving temp.

 

[kh54s10]

At what temp did you add the hops. Was the beer already cold or did you add the hops then start cooling to serving temps? I hear people have good success with keg hopping and it makes sense in theory but I don't know what Im doing different to get that strong green, astringency flavor. My only guess is adding the hops while the beer is warm then cooling (dry hops and beer) to serving temp.

Warm then cooled. I don't use too much. The most was 2 ounces. About 7 days before trying a glass and 2+ weeks before the carbonation settled.

 

[Paulaner]

I treated with campden tablets, 1/2 tab for 10 gallons for chloramines/chlorine prior to heating. I did not add acid to sparge water. Just 4 ml to the mash. Could that be it?

You need to treat your sparge water with acid to prevent your PH from getting too high during the sparge. Take a look at the Bru n Water page again to read about how important this process is. I use RO water and still put a little acid into my sparge water to prevent this from happening.

 

[hlmbrwng]

Its the dry hops which the flavor will fade in time. From your time line you added the second dry hops on day 8 then started cold crashing day 9 correct? Every time I have dry hopped cold (tried keg hopping a couple time) I get a strong green, astringency flavor. Has anyone else had this experience?

I just finished an IPA that was dry-hopped in the keg in the 40's F. It tastes really good. I was getting some bitter and green flavors, but that was just for the first couple of pours...some of the hop material was still in the beer.

 

[hlmbrwng]

You need to treat your sparge water with acid to prevent your PH from getting too high during the sparge. Take a look at the Bru n Water page again to read about how important this process is. I use RO water and still put a little acid into my sparge water to prevent this from happening.

I treat a large volume of water and use that for both my mash and sparge, so both are down near 5.5 pH. Not sure if there is a downside to doing this.