Areas to improve..

[Spaceball1]

I have one bottle of my first batch (NXNW Amber Ale) left and about half of my 2nd batch (Real Ale PA) left. 3rd batch will be in the bottles early next week.

First batch was very reminiscent of the brew it was trying to clone. The second - not so much. I did a taste test last night, and the clone is quite different than the original. The 2nd batch is drinkable, but kind of on the bitter side. Both have had a certain taste (which I can't even start to describe) in common. It's not especially bad, but it's not really present in the original beers I'm cloning and both batches have had it (2nd more so than 1st).

So.. with that said... I have some areas that I know I need to improve on, and I'm thinking that the taste issues might be related to these.

1) Temperature during primary.. During fermentation, I keep my pail in a water filled ice-chest in my closet. I periodically drop in freezer packs to maintain cool temps in the water. My goal is to maintain 58-62 in the water, but I'm not terribly dilligent with this, so actual water temps are more likely in the 62-68 range. I'm wondering if the off flavor I describe might be because of this.

2) Yeast. I've been using Nottingham dry. It's cheap ($1.59 vs $6.99 for liquids) and easy (no starters, just dump it in the bucket). Would the flavor difference between my brews and the originals be because I use a cheaper yeast rather than the more expensive ones?

3) Undercarbed. I use the priming sugar pack included in my recipe kit and bottle condition in my closet at 70-75 for 3 weeks. I'm usually pretty good at putting them in the fridge for 2-3 days before drinking as well. For the most part, my bottles have all been a touch undercarbed. It's not a huge deal, but a little more head would be nice.

I'm getting the urge to start doing some big beers (DFH90, Rogue Dead Guy) but before I go for those I want to get these and any other issues worked out..

Thoughts?

 

[WVBeerBaron]

I think the yeast definately. I use white labs or wyeast, dry just doesn't compair to me especially if you ever make a belgian style beer. A yeast starter is important for better flavor so I've learned.

With ale I usually ferment at 65 degrees in my basement, seems fine.

I store bottles in the 65 degree basement, if it doesnt taste right at 3 weeks i'll leave it alone until the 2 month mark. I've made beer that really shines at 3-4 months of aging. For more head you can add a little cara-pils to the recipe.

Just my 2 cents

 

[DrDirt]

Your temp is okay for the yeast you're using.
There's nothing wrong with using dry yeast, most people can't tell a difference.
carb level shouldn't dramatically impact the taste.

I'd recommend really trying to dial in your brew-day procedure. if you don't have a wort chiller, you can make one pretty cheap. if you're doing extract-try doing late extract additions. don't squeeze the steeping grain bag. splash and aerate the wort before pitching. and do thorough reading on this forum.

cheers

 

[mojotele]

I don't know, everything you say you need to improve (besides carbonation) actually sounds just fine to me. Your temps are great, and Nottingham is a fine yeast. The type of yeast you use can affect flavor, but Nottingham is rather clean. I wouldn't think it would attribute off-flavors, at least at your fermentation temps.

If you're brewing extract beers, you could be tasting the "extract twang" people talk about. No one can describe the taste of it very well. If you're doing partial boils, you can try full wort boils. That may diminish that extract twang a bit if it is due to Maillard reactions.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

My thought is you may be getting that extract twang, or your sanitation is a little lacking and your getting some off flavors from that.

 

[dogbar]

For the Real Ale clone, I'm curious about your recipe. That beer's a little weird, in that they use Saaz hops for it. Any normal American style PA hops are going to take it pretty far off course.

 

[Spaceball1]

I read the yeast washing thread, and I think that I might order liquid yeast for my next batch and then wash it out to save the $$ for next time. We'll find out if that does any better..

Are my temps really Ok? I thought 62-68 ambient was too warm since the fermenting wort is going to be 4-6 degrees warmer? (I'm going to build a cooler to regulate this, BTW..)

So far, all three batches that I've done were extract. Maybe I'll try late extract addition next time and see if that reduces the 'twang' (if that's what the flavor is). I do want to move into partial mash, but I'd like to get a few more brews under my belt.

After my boil, I take the brewpot to my ice-water filled kitchen sink. Between that and my near freezing top off water, I usually hit pitching temps within 15 minutes.

I hold the grain bag with a pair of tongs, so squeezing that isn't an issue.

As far as aerating, I pretty much just do an agressive pour of my top-off water and wort into the primary. Do I need to do more aeration? I've been getting airlock activity in 10-18 hours, so I know that I'm getting some aeration...

I think my sanitation is ok. I have one of those plastic bins that they use to bus tables at restaurants, and I pretty much just leave everything in there while I'm not using it.

On the Real Ale, I used the kit from AHS. (RA's brewery happens to be very close by..)

 

[Calder]

Is the taste you can't quite tell, cardboard, dull type taste? The near freezing water you use, where do you get it from and what temperature is the wort when you add it. If it is basically cooled tap water added at a temperature higher than 80F, you could be introducing oxidation into the wort. If you want to use cooled water to bring the temperature down, you need to boil it first to get the air out of it.

Nottingham is a fine yeast. Very clean and very attenuative. If you use a liquid yeast, you will get more flavor out of it, and your beer will finish a little less dry. 58 to 62 is OK for Notty, but many ale yeasts will not work that low. Mid 60s would be better. Also, if you have the fermenter in a water bath, the water in the bath will keep the ferment temperature down, and not several degrees higher.

 

[Rick500]

The first thing I would do if I were you, is tighten up on fermentation temperature control. 62-68 is quite a range.

Fluctuating throughout that range is not the best thing, especially through the first few days of fermentation.

Better to find a temperature in that range you can easily maintain, and do your best to keep it there.

I'd try liquid yeast too. A lot of people make great beer with dry yeast, but I don't do very well with it; I'm not sure why.

 

[Frodo]

If you've been using liquid malt extract, you might try dry malt extract next time. I think it ages better while it's sitting on shelves under who-knows-what conditions.

 

[mojotele]

Are my temps really Ok? I thought 62-68 ambient was too warm since the fermenting wort is going to be 4-6 degrees warmer? (I'm going to build a cooler to regulate this, BTW..)

Oh, AMBIENT temps. I thought you meant that was the temperature of your beer. If you don't know the temperature of your beer, you should. It sounds like you're just guessing based off the temperature of the room. The little liquid crystal stick on thermometers do give a good approximation of the beer temperature in my experience. If you're using those and they are saying 62-68, you're doing OK.

So far, all three batches that I've done were extract. Maybe I'll try late extract addition next time and see if that reduces the 'twang' (if that's what the flavor is). I do want to move into partial mash, but I'd like to get a few more brews under my belt.

Yes, try that and invest in a large stock pot to do full wort boils. The result really is superior.

As far as aerating, I pretty much just do an agressive pour of my top-off water and wort into the primary. Do I need to do more aeration? I've been getting airlock activity in 10-18 hours, so I know that I'm getting some aeration...

You could probably use more aeration. I used to pour wort back and forth between the fermenter and my stock pot. A lot. That works really, really well. It also helps combine the top off water and the boiled wort which will give you a better gravity reading.

 

[Rick500]

For better aeration, after the wort is in the fermenter, put a tennis ball under one side of it and rock it back and forth for 5 minutes. Works like a charm.

 

[Spaceball1]

Err.. like i said, I don't even know how to describe the taste. It's just, something. Sorry i can't be more specific.

I use gallon jugs of drinking water for my brews. I boil with three and stick two in the freezer for top off water.

When the boil is complete, I put the pot containing the finished wort into an ice bath in my sink. Then I pour the two jugs of top off water from the freezer into my primary and take the temp. Then I calculate how far the wort has to cool so that the whole mixture will be at 80 when I add the wort into the primary. Like I said, I pour aggressively in order to aerate the mixture.

Once I get another project or two done around the house, I'm going to build a thermostatically controlled fermentation cooler (similar to MOAF, but using a peltier cooler instead of ice). I think my temperature issues will be taken care of with that.