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Yay, my friend Justin just called me this afternoon and we got to chat for a bit. He's the horticulture guy (has a degree and is in the biz), and I'm the project/experiment without much absolute , knowledge guy, LOL. He's worried, as I am now, about phosphorus once the fruit starts coming in. Other trace elements as well, are a real concern. It is an experiment after all, so I can't get too bent out of shape if it doesn't work. Lets just still all keep our fingers crossed though.

Well, as of today I have fruit coming in that isn't just peppers. Here's a squash forming nicely, now if it comes in with no problem... I have enough phosphorus. Just hope it isn't a limited thing and the veggies that do form to completion don't deplete the minerals for the others.
squashforming6-17-09.jpg


And more on the way it looks like!!!
squashblossoms6-17-09.jpg


Lots of cantaloupe flowers as well.
cantaloupe6-17-09.jpg


Bells still forming nicely and more of them popping up now too. Looks like I'm well on my way to the first harvest, but I reserve the thoughts of being overconfident.
bellsforming6-17-09.jpg


The water is still brilliantly clear, and the hop cuttings are looking like they may be getting taller!!! I hope so, because that will mean they are rooted and need to be planted in the tubes. Here's another tank shot and then you get to see the babies that this thread was supposed to be all about (yes, I am getting there).
clearpond6-17-09.jpg
hops6-17-09.jpg


OK, so you guys probably want to see the whole shebang just for another growth reference. Also, you can see the trellising job I did. The weave really is making the plants sturdy.
garden6-17-09.jpg


I am very happy with how things are turning out and remain very positive. You horticulture guys chiming in really help me out, so keep it coming ;).
 
Well, the hop cuttings are looking a little yellow, so I put them more in the shade. I am adding coffee grounds directly to the water and am over-feeding the fish until I can get another nitrogen spike. As for the phosphorus dilemma, found out about compost tea and am brewing some of that up as an addition to the grow-beds. It should filter out before it hits the tank, but it isn't harmful to the fish if it does make it through. My bet is that the plants take it before it gets to the tank. I really need more fish, and am heading to the bait shop for minnows since frickin' small-town Wal-Mart doesn't have anything but champagne colored $0.28 goldfish, and you have to wait a half-hour because they only have like 6 people on staff (and one of those is the checker).
 
If your goldfish/koi eat the minnows/baitfish, this will increase both the nitrogen & phosphorous in their excreta. You could get some commercial fish food with added phosphorous too, though I know the idea is to recycle. You could set up another tank/aquarium just to breed minnows/baitfish, if you can successfully breed them, you don't have to buy them anymore.

I'm wondering if growing peas would help raise your nitrogen levels. Peas & some other legumes actually put nitrogen back into the soil they grow in, I'm just not sure they would do this in a hydroponic environment; your horticultualist friend may have the answer on that one.

As for the question of iron chelate (from the other thread), now that I know what your project is, I feel safe enough in saying if you use the organic liquid iron chelate (contains no EDTA) GrowOrganic: Fertall Liquid Iron Chelate (Gallon) as a foliar application ONLY, and use a handheld trigger style spray bottle to mist the solution onto the foliage, I'm 99% certain it will have zero impact on your fish.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned "cloning" your oak tree. ALL plant cutting are simply extensions of the original plant. Better than actual cellular cloning, it's genetics are identical, with NO cellular mutations. I'd use Hormex rooting powder on those cuttings.

To avoid transplant shock & stimulate root growth, you might try using a product that contains indole-3 butyric acid Indole-3-Butyric Acid (046701) Fact Sheet | Pesticides | US EPA It's great stuff, but the added inert contents of a commercial garden mix might be an issue with your fish, be sure to read the label(s) carefully.

I know this is a long reply, but I'm trying to respond to several things without having to create a post for each thing. Also, this project of yours is VERY COOL! Regards, GF.

EDIT: Just a thought here, but if you're concerned about the compost tea, or anything else getting back to your fish, you could easily add 1 more step to the system to solve that problem. If you used a bucket with a tube outlet near the bottom & put a screen over it on the inside to prevent clogging like a false bottom in AG brewing, place a layer of gravel in the bottom, a layer of activated charcoal over that (at least 3 inches thick) & another layer of gravel over that; simply run your growtube outlet into the bucket & then into your fishtank instead of directly into the fishtank. Regards, GF.
 
Thanks to the both of you. I answered the other post as well, before I read this one. I'm trying some compost tea tonight or tomorrow morning. Hopefully everything turns green again after that.
 
Ok, so I just went and checked today on the cuttings. Well, they look like they did the other day. Still with one tip drying out and the other still standing. Peeked over the cup on the larger one thinking I wouldn't see much worse than it looks on top. Surprise!!! Roots coming out in every direction from the top leaves I cut off. That is on the one I was thinking looked like a gonner. I can only imagine what the root structure looks like on other nodes.

So, I literally have aquaponic hops now.:rockin: The rest of the garden is looking good, and I just added a weak dose of compost tea to the grow-beds. Hopefully, I will have leaves turning deep green again. I will take pictures and post tonight. Still haven't found a cheap enough source of fish yet. Might have to drive to Wal-Mart and buy the nasty looking $.28 fish they have. Oh well, it is going good so I remain perectly optomistic. :ban: Pictures coming....
 
Here they are folks...

Here is the first cutting planted.
Cascadecuttingplanted.jpg


Look at the roots on this sucker.
cascadecuttingroots.jpg


Look at the new growth coming from the leaf nodes, both sets!!!
hopnewgrowth.jpg


Look at my first squash.
yellowsquashgettingbig.jpg


And my first cheyenne.
cheyennepeppergettingbig.jpg


Bell is getting big now too.
bellgettingbig.jpg
 
Thanks for the fish info. I like the fatheads, LOL.

I am trying again today for minnows. I hate the idea of paying $.28 ea. for ugly fish that will probably die, from Wally World. Might have to if I can't find minnows today. I need fish poop like no one has ever needed fish poop before, lol.

I am very curious abut my worms in the bucket. They seem to have the perfect environment, just turned upside down and under water. Normally they would have to climb up to their food and then back down to where they sleep and poop. That is until it gets nasty, and then they leave to make another home repeating the process over-again.

In the bucket, their food comes up to them and their poop is instantly cleaned away from wherever they excreted. They never have to do anything "except eat"!!! The stuff they eat is so soft that they actually eat faster than in-ground worms would with solid waste. I am fighting the temptation to look at the bucket. "It ain't broke, so to speak, so why mess with it?" Must remember this, must remember this, must remember... what? I'm so bad with patience. :(
 
Bought more fish and half of them died. Put a tarp around the tank to shade it, and am building the screen as I type. I broke down and went to Wal-Mart. Goldfish and Red Rose's were the catch, at a dozen a piece for $.28ea.

Well, I can see about 8-9 dead Red's and so I estimate they won't make it as an addition to the herd, lol. The champagne looking goldfish got much darker in the tank and look like the Jefferson's did when I got them, (don't ask, I can only say it isn't racists). Yes, I named my fish I got initially, and I still do if they "stick out". Frank Zappa died right off, but Thor has made it looking completely different from anything else in the tank. Yellow headed and see-through silvery on the body. Very cool fish.

I added a snickerdoodle cookie that got stale, and they devoured it. I have to cool this water. It is very warm to the touch and needs shade from now on.
 
Just an idea here, but have you thought about catching wild minnows? They're free, all you need is a fine mesh dipnet and the wild fish are used to tough conditions. You can make a dipnet easily enough out of an old broomstick, some heavy gauge wire & SWMBO's old pantyhose. Just walk along the shoreline & around docks, dip out the minnows with your net put them in a bucket of water & take 'em home. They'll eat algae & flake food, and they'll be a welcome meal for your larger fish. You could even breed them if you wanted. Regards, GF.
 
The shade may help with the heat, but so does a small fountain, plus it helps to aerate the water. Another thing to consider is buying fish from a pond store, they are acclimated to the warm temps where wal-mart is cold. The fish Wal-mart sells are half dead already and rarely is there anyone there who knows d*ck about fish and aquariums. I understand your locality is an issue with finding decent fish. I like the wild minnow idea from gratus as well. A bit of bread crumbs or fish flakes will bring the minnows out, and they live close to the shore.
 
Wortmonger, it may be that you happen to take pics when feeding, but that looks like a LOT of food in the pond for the fish that you have. Uneaten food (and dead fish) decomposes and creates ammonia, which is deadly to fish even in small PPM. You may want to check for ammonia levels, they normally spike with new ponds until the beneficial bacteria in your filter gets fully established.
 
you can buy an ammonia test kit at your local fish store if your worried but i think that your bigger problem is going to be temperature. They do sell large scale heating and cooling systems for aquariums- infact the leader of my brew group uses one to reciruclate water in giant pools for his fermentation to keep the temperature constant. There on the pricy side at 150+ but it would certainly help with temperature issues. The squash looks great so obviously nutrients arn't too much of a problem...
 
Adding some bottom feeders like catfish or crayfish would help to clean up excess food; though the crayfish would be able to climb out unless you put a screen over to tank. Regards, GF.
 
You have inspired me WortMonger. Since I already have a 55gallon fish tank set up inside all I have to do is pump some water to a container above it and provide some light. Glad to see you are starting to get some results.
 
Do the redworms live underwater, or did I misunderstand the placement of your DIY biofilter? How many did you use in your system? My vermicomposter is only in its infancy, but is coming along. Any tips for getting rid of fruit flies? No problem until I moved it from screened porch to garage. Worms are still happy though.

If you haven't yet, check out Growing Power. This farm is doing some mind blowing work on a pretty small site. I plan on visiting this summer to get pictures and possibly video of their systems. It looks inspiring.

-Think about building your future stock tank in ground with a pond liner or such to prevent temperature swings and to keep the temps overall cooler(can even be ornamental too).

- Try planting in net pots filled with mix of compost/vermicompost/coconut coir to have the moisture and nutrients wicked up to small plants before putting into system. This of course will add nutrition and beneficial bacteria right directly to the root zone.

- Compost teas are a boon for phos/potash hungry plants, but may still not be enough once your toms are 6' at the top of your trellis. There are organic sources of individual nit, phos, potash for hydro systems that you could add to tea or by itself. You should also think about a separate reservoir just for boosting P and K to one or more tubes with a valve for switching between reservoirs manually or automatically.
 
Do the redworms live underwater, or did I misunderstand the placement of your DIY biofilter?
Click to expand...
Yes, they live right in the bucket, which is underwater (very aerated water). They breathe through their skin, so aerated water is key to worms survival in my use. The only reason I put them in the bucket, was to not have to clean the filter... ever! Worms rock!:rockin:
How many did you use in your system? My vermicomposter is only in its infancy, but is coming along. Any tips for getting rid of fruit flies? No problem until I moved it from screened porch to garage. Worms are still happy though.
Click to expand...
I bought 500 initially, and that seemed a little small. I put only a handful in each grow-tube, and the rest of the 500 in the biofilter-bucket. They really populated though. The grow beds are starting to see things disappear from on top, and the bucket apparently got so full they left for greener pastures. Actually, I don't know what happened (but I'm trying to be optimistic;)), but there were worms everywhere in the fish tank. All little bitty. I know some of those got sucked into the grow bed pump and are now happy in their new home. Others... well they are poop now.

They may have all died, but the experiment is to not open until the end of the season. The only thing I did, was to shut off the airlift pump feeding the grow-beds for one night after doing a first feeding of compost tea. It was a very diluted addition to each grow-tube, and was followed by a 1 gallon rinse of top-up water to dilute it further. I know it wasn't the tea, and the worms were alive, swimming in fact, (you know??? how worms swim) until they were masticated:D.

If you haven't yet, check out Growing Power. This farm is doing some mind blowing work on a pretty small site. I plan on visiting this summer to get pictures and possibly video of their systems. It looks inspiring.

-Think about building your future stock tank in ground with a pond liner or such to prevent temperature swings and to keep the temps overall cooler(can even be ornamental too).

- Try planting in net pots filled with mix of compost/vermicompost/coconut coir to have the moisture and nutrients wicked up to small plants before putting into system. This of course will add nutrition and beneficial bacteria right directly to the root zone.

- Compost teas are a boon for phos/potash hungry plants, but may still not be enough once your toms are 6' at the top of your trellis. There are organic sources of individual nit, phos, potash for hydro systems that you could add to tea or by itself. You should also think about a separate reservoir just for boosting P and K to one or more tubes with a valve for switching between reservoirs manually or automatically.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information, I will check them out. I'm looking into Dolemite as a possibility for certain applications, as well as many other directions. I'm really liking the EarthBox approach as well, only watered with super aerated fish water. I'm also wondering about other wicking mediums that could be used. I'm even thinking of a similar design to be used in the aquaponic loop.
 
OK, a little update on how the hop cutting are doing. I took this a week ago, but since then they have only gotten bigger.
1stcuttingshootingbigtime.jpg


I checked the roots and they are prolific. If you pull on the plant a little, a lot of gravel wants to come up. The smaller cutting is doing fine, except for a few leaves missing from hungry critters. The side arms on both are amazing me. This was so easy to do compared to what I had always heard. I have to try layering technique now to propagate so I can learn it too. The compost tea worked!!! Everything is gaining a dark green leaf and the fruit is forming nicely on almost all the plants. Hab hasn't like this AP setup sadly. I really wanted some of those hot hot peppers. Guess I will have to keep waiting.
 
what did you end up doing to control the temperature or has that become a non-issue? Looks great! Keep up the pictures :)
 
Don't waste your time with air-layering.

Simple cloning is the quickest and easiest. KISS
 
Well, I have had a blast with this system this year. I read a ton of information and learned a lot from first hand experiences. So, who cares I got miniature veggies and lots of headaches from over-filled growtubes, I did find the virtues of rooting clones from bine cuttings. Didn't make for a very good thread though,:( but it will continue next year.

Yes, all the AP "hop" stuff I tried from the start failed. Rhizomes don't like the setup at all to get started. Oklahoma requires too much care and watering for in-ground rhizome starts as well, but I did manage to get two bine cuttings off the Cascade in the ground. I have since rooted the cuttings within the AP system and was having success.

Since, the rest of the AP system was screaming for more room for roots, I moved the plants again. This time I put the cuttings into a homemade Earthbox, and they started dying immediately. I am down to one bine cutting, but it has started to revive and is sending side shoots out everywhere now.

So... lessons learned and new stuff for next year. I plan on ordering more rhizomes and planting most of them in Earthboxes. Also, I plan to remove the gravel from the AP system and go with rooting cups/grow-foam in less crowded grow-tubes. Another bio-filter bucket for the pond may be made, but those roots should have room without all the gravel. AP has a definite advantage for rooting bine cuttings, hence making propagation easier. With the Earthbox and reconfigured grow-tubes, I should be able to grow from rhizome and take plenty of cuttings. Next year an entire tube will be dedicated to hops, some rhizomes and the rest bine cuttings.

I'm pumped up at the bine cuttings and how they rooted. I am also very un-pumped at how the rest of the hops did. I truly feel the easiest way to grow is in the Earthbox for almost anyone. I will be investing in more of these little dudes so they can hold a lot of rooted bine cuttings next year.:rockin:

Oh, and I will post a picture of the last remaining bine cutting when I get the camera charged up. For all those interested in dinky hops pictures! lol
 
For what it is worth I was completely entertained by your aquaponic experience.

Also, my "Earthbox" (quotes because it is homemade, thus it isnt truly an earthbox) hops have taken off really well. I planted them the last weekend in June and one of the plants is already around 13 feet tall.

I also have tomatoes growing in actual earthboxes. One of my tomato plants is around 10 feet tall right now, the other is around 8 feet tall producing tomatoes around 1 pound each.

Hops (two weeks in)
IMG_0505.jpg

IMG_0523.jpg
 
Well, the last surviving bine cutting clone has died in the Earthbox. It just withered up and died. I still think the box is the way to grow, and the AP is the way to root anything. I have a tomato limb cutting that was huge but almost vacant of leaves (thanks horn worms) that I simply cut and roughly rammed into the gravel that is doing great now. This system has serious merits, now to just tweek it next year for growing things. Must use less gravel, must use less gravel....
 
Haven't checked for the worms in the tubes or the filter yet. The filter is starting to slow down and not creating the Venturi effect I am happy with. I need to check them pretty soon and see if they are still there eating away the fish tank poopy. Next year the pump output will go directly to the tubes and will pull a Venturi on the way, followed by Venturi's on the drains. The less gravel in the tubes and the more water flow should equal higher aeration through simple Venturi effect. The worms are only going to be in the filter bucket next year, that is if they are still alive at the end of season this year.
 
WortMonger said:
I covered the pond with three layers of window screen and it stays very cool now.
Click to expand...

When I first saw this one of the first thoughts I had was fish hot tub. I had to try and read all 11 pages to see if this was discussed and it seems as summer came in full it did but it appears you found a solution. Could also be why you kept losing fish too. Not only was a small volume of water sitting out in the hot sun all day you were also running it through tubes exposing it even further to more heat. Ever leave a hose full of water sit in the sun all day and then turn it on? Gets almost too hot to touch.

Not sure if you mentioned it but some kind of circulation pump will do a lot at keeping the fish alive. Neat idea as a project but it seems once you compensate for the short comings it appears not so cost effective.
 
I completely agree that temperature was the reason I lost the fish. Until I had the window screen built, the water was really warm to the touch. Now, the water is always cool to the touch. Actually, it is very refreshing. :)

The tubes are white and don't absorb that much heat. I built a screen "shield," that shades all of the top and most of the southern tank exposure. The huge okra "just south-east" helps tremendously!!! Dang it is a fricken' 6-plant-bush now. There are "ever-increasing" top-ups to the tank by tap water, so you can count that cool water addition as well. Next year, with less gravel (like 1/2" to 1"deep) and higher flow-rate through the tubes, I think I can control the watering on my hops experiments better. I think this will greatly improve upon my "root system problems" accrued this year and allow more growth. It should also allow for easier transplanting of rooted cuttings from the AP system... I hope! I have very great optimism for this next year.

The system does have a constant pump that recirculated from bottom to top, but also aerates via a Venturi device at the pump exit. The bucket filter box is filled with gravel and acts as a bio-filter for the fish waste. Next year I do want another bucket and pump for extra aeration.
 
WortMonger said:
I completely agree that temperature was the reason I lost the fish. Until I had the window screen built, the water was really warm to the touch. Now, the water is always cool to the touch. Actually, it is very refreshing. :)

The tubes are white and don't absorb that much heat. I built a screen "shield," that shades all of the top and most of the southern tank exposure. The huge okra "just south-east" helps tremendously!!! Dang it is a fricken' 6-plant-bush now. There are "ever-increasing" top-ups to the tank by tap water, so you can count that cool water addition as well. Next year, with less gravel (like 1/2" to 1"deep) and higher flow-rate through the tubes, I think I can control the watering on my hops experiments better. I think this will greatly improve upon my "root system problems" accrued this year and allow more growth. It should also allow for easier transplanting of rooted cuttings from the AP system... I hope! I have very great optimism for this next year.

The system does have a constant pump that recirculated from bottom to top, but also aerates via a Venturi device at the pump exit. The bucket filter box is filled with gravel and acts as a bio-filter for the fish waste. Next year I do want another bucket and pump for extra aeration.
Click to expand...

Aside from the other fish you mention plain old catfish from the creek or pond would probably do better than other fish in such an enviroment.
 
WortMonger said:
I would really like to try more species of fish in the future. I love catfish.
Click to expand...

I have left catfish lying on the ground for like an hour before deciding I (GF actually) didn't want to keep them after all and we just put them back in the water and they swim away. Ones we do keep make it all the way back to the house alive out of water the whole time. What other FW fish can last that long? Most fish die soon in water unless you really have some way of oxygenating the water.
 
WortMonger, i really enjoyed this thread. I was going to do something very much like this this summer, but time got away from me. Tilapia would be the perfect fish for this. Then you could eat them as well. This combines three of my hobbies, Fishkeeping, beermaking, and Hydroponics. Thank you for sharing all of this. Good luck next year!
 
kajon, the only problem with tilapia in such a system is temperature of the water. Higher than 80F and they don't like it, lower than 50F they die. Wisconsin would be perfect for summer raising of fish, but you would have to harvest them all and start all over the next year. If you have the means to get fry every year then go for it, otherwise I believe jgln is right about the catfish. They are tough little buggers.

Goldfish were chosen in my project due to their tenaciousness and temperature range. We all saw they don't like the water warm to the touch, but they simply slow down in winter so I can keep them and start all over in spring. Catfish would work this way too, only have much better heat tolerance in the peak of summer. Not that "that" is a concern anymore with the screen, but if you want edible fish they are the way to go down south where I am. Check the aquaponic forums out and get more specialized information about your application. They where a wealth of information for me, including the prediction of my root problem.

I'm already on making a floating "rooting" tray to start cuttings next year. I think "holey" cups filled with gravel would root great just floating in the fish tank. Then, when I see roots forming out of the cups I can move the cup to the tube. This year I continually damaged roots with each transfer and the plants all suffered. I will have significantly more water moving through the tubes, provided by direct supply from the pump and bucket combination.

I'm thinking of experimenting with a tube attached to the bottom of the filter bucket and ending in direct atmosphere for my Venturi-effect-aeration. This way I simplify the aeration directly to the worms before the nutrient rich water goes to the plants. So, everything that needs the most oxygen will have it in greater abundance.

Also, I plan on the water entering the tubes to be in an isolated cell of gravel separated from the rest of the tube by a screen (extra bio-filtration and no roots from a plant in this chamber). Then, simple Venturi's on the tube drains prior to entering the fish tank for final "adequate" aeration to my pooping friends. That is the mission plans anyway....
 
bumpity..

Any updates on the aquaponics hops? Your thread gave me the bug ::shakes fist:: and I built my aquaponics setup this summer. No plants yet, only a few Koi in a 500 gal tank as Im cycling the system while I grow some seedlings, but Ill try to do some hops in the spring even though Im farther south than hops typically like. It is going to be channel catfish in the tank as soon as I find some fingerlings...

system2.jpg

setup11.jpg

singlebed.jpg
 
You bastard! I love your setup... and now I can't do it because I have no yard (renting :( ). Looks really good. You are going to have so much fun. I didn't have any luck with rhizomes, but cuttings off of other plants rooted just fine. Have a blast and please keep posting here, or start your own thread and post a linky in this one so we can all get the info. I would love for more to try this and give us all more research into aquaponics hops.
 

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