Apfelwein - Cane Sugar + Champagne Yeast = Okay Result?

[calmingapple]

Hey guys!

Happy Labor Day! So here I am hoping to make Apfelwein for the first time ever. I realize all I have on hand are: champagne yeast, cane sugar, and 100% apple juice.

The curious question is... can I make a good apfelwein? Or should I wait until I have a better yeast (Montrachet) and possible a better sugar, i.e. dextrose?

Cheers

 

[W0GWT]

Hey guys!



Happy Labor Day! So here I am hoping to make Apfelwein for the first time ever. I realize all I have on hand are: champagne yeast, cane sugar, and 100% apple juice.



The curious question is... can I make a good apfelwein? Or should I wait until I have a better yeast (Montrachet) and possible a better sugar, i.e. dextrose?



Cheers

That really depends on what you like.

I make mine with those exact ingredients, but that's because I want 0 residual sweetness. IT IS BONE DRY. I have dialed my recipe in after 5-6 batches and I like it that way.
That said, it is too dry for most people, so you may not like it.

 

[calmingapple]

Bone dry sounds good to me! So I am anticipating this might be exactly what I want to make. It will be my first cider attempt, well pretty much ever... so dry is great in my books

I was hoping to try one gallon to start and scale up from there. Any other suggestions? Will black tea work in place of tannin powder?

That really depends on what you like.

I make mine with those exact ingredients, but that's because I want 0 residual sweetness. IT IS BONE DRY. I have dialed my recipe in after 5-6 batches and I like it that way.
That said, it is too dry for most people, so you may not like it.

 

[calmingapple]

My biggest concern is the champagne yeast itself.

I am worried that I won't be able to bottle it properly because I only have regular clear wine bottles and nothing fortified for such pressure.

Am I going to be able to bottle it or should I hunt down something meant just for champagne yeast?

Thanks for the help!

That really depends on what you like.

I make mine with those exact ingredients, but that's because I want 0 residual sweetness. IT IS BONE DRY. I have dialed my recipe in after 5-6 batches and I like it that way.
That said, it is too dry for most people, so you may not like it.

 

[Yooper]

My biggest concern is the champagne yeast itself.

I am worried that I won't be able to bottle it properly because I only have regular clear wine bottles and nothing fortified for such pressure.

Am I going to be able to bottle it or should I hunt down something meant just for champagne yeast?

Thanks for the help!

You shouldn't have any pressure at all. Champagne yeast doesn't make champagne. It's just a name of a yeast strain. Making champagne means priming the bottles so that the finished wine is sparkling. It's a very high alcohol tolerant strain, so it's commonly used for making champagne but it's used for MANY other wines as well.

 

[W0GWT]

My biggest concern is the champagne yeast itself.



I am worried that I won't be able to bottle it properly because I only have regular clear wine bottles and nothing fortified for such pressure.



Am I going to be able to bottle it or should I hunt down something meant just for champagne yeast?



Thanks for the help!

I've never tried adding tannins, tea, or anything like that. It is popular and in several recipes I've seen, so go for it if you like.

As Yooper said, it's just the name of the strain. If you don't prime your batch, it should be still.
I do prime my Apfelwein, so I put it into capped beer bottles, swing tops, and (if I'm feeling fancy) corked and caged champagne bottles.
Obviously, if you go the carbonated route, then you can't use wine bottles.

 

[calmingapple]

Thanks Yooper & W0GWT,

This forum is amazing!

But yah I cannot wait to give it a try then. I wanted to do carbonated but looks like I can't until I obtain fortified bottles. Well next time perhaps! Looks like I have some bottle collecting to do.

I also just wanted to ensure that cane sugar is still a good choice as I am about 3 weeks away from obtaining my corn sugar from my LHBS.

Thank you!

 

[W0GWT]

I also just wanted to ensure that cane sugar is still a good choice as I am about 3 weeks away from obtaining my corn sugar from my LHBS.

Thank you!

Yep, you're fine with normal sugar. I haven't used corn sugar since I had my first brew kit.
I believe you have to use a little extra table sugar to be equivalent to corn sugar. I don't recall offhand how much, but it isn't that much.

As you're not using it to prime right now, that isn't that important.

 

[Yooper]

I haven't used corn sugar in wine- but you certainly could. Chemically, it's so similar to beet and cane sugar that I've never tried to track down corn sugar. Wine yeast metabolize sucrose just fine, and I wouldn't even try to find corn sugar for it.

 

[calmingapple]

Oh that is good to know because I had this impression of corn sugar being the sort of "holy grail" of wine making ;-)

I wasn't sure what the fuss was all about, really. I'm sure some people claim to taste the difference more than others!

I haven't used corn sugar in wine- but you certainly could. Chemically, it's so similar to beet and cane sugar that I've never tried to track down corn sugar. Wine yeast metabolize sucrose just fine, and I wouldn't even try to find corn sugar for it.

 

[Yooper]

Oh that is good to know because I had this impression of corn sugar being the sort of "holy grail" of wine making ;-)

I wasn't sure what the fuss was all about, really. I'm sure some people claim to taste the difference more than others!

Both disaccharides and monosaccharides are completely fermentable by wine and ale yeast. If any one tells you they taste the difference, they are lying or crazy. So relax, and just do what feels right.

 

[calmingapple]

Well that is good to hear. I had a hunch but I didn't want to go mucking up a good thing.

Thanks to some lovely parents who went shopping across the border this weekend, I have some Tree Top Apple Juice ready to go. I already had the Champagne Yeast and Cane Sugar. So I am excited to get started on my first Apfelwein.

Thanks everyone!

Both disaccharides and monosaccharides are completely fermentable by wine and ale yeast. If any one tells you they taste the difference, they are lying or crazy. So relax, and just do what feels right.

 

[calmingapple]

Hi W0GWT,

Do you add anything else to your Apfelwein other than sugar, champagne yeast, and tree top juice?

I don't have any proper tannin in a bottle. I'm still hoping brewed black tea will work for any bite.

That's about all I have to add for now. I think I want to keep it simple for my first try. Later maybe cinnamon sticks or oak chips if you guys say it's a good choice to add.


Thanks for the advice!

That really depends on what you like.

I make mine with those exact ingredients, but that's because I want 0 residual sweetness. IT IS BONE DRY. I have dialed my recipe in after 5-6 batches and I like it that way.
That said, it is too dry for most people, so you may not like it.

 

[W0GWT]

Hi W0GWT,



Do you add anything else to your Apfelwein other than sugar, champagne yeast, and tree top juice?



I don't have any proper tannin in a bottle. I'm still hoping brewed black tea will work for any bite.



That's about all I have to add for now. I think I want to keep it simple for my first try. Later maybe cinnamon sticks or oak chips if you guys say it's a good choice to add.





Thanks for the advice!

Honestly, no.

I played around with oak on a batch, but I rather think it goes better when you're making still Apfelwein and, as I said earlier, I carbonate.

If oak is your thing, go for it! It is easy to overdo oak, so research thoroughly. Although it will mellow with age, you probably don't want to wait forever and a day to drink.

I don't do cinnamon or spices personally, but many people do. I think it's pretty common to try and work an "apple pie" angle. With champagne yeast, it will be so dry that the "apple pie" style Apfelwein might not be too tasty.

All this boils down to taste. Mess around with it; apple juice is cheap.

 

[podz]

Hey guys!

Happy Labor Day! So here I am hoping to make Apfelwein for the first time ever. I realize all I have on hand are: champagne yeast, cane sugar, and 100% apple juice.

The curious question is... can I make a good apfelwein? Or should I wait until I have a better yeast (Montrachet) and possible a better sugar, i.e. dextrose?

Cheers

I only use champagne yeast when making cider / Apfelwein and it always turns out great.

I wouldn't use Montrachet yeast, even if I could get it, nor would I consider it a better yeast for cider making, due to it's propensity to produce hydrogen sulfide gas (rhino farts).

 

[podz]

Both disaccharides and monosaccharides are completely fermentable by wine and ale yeast.

Is there a reason why you omitted lager yeast?

 

[Yooper]

Is there a reason why you omitted lager yeast?

No, and lager yeast ferment more complex sugars (such as maltriose) than ale and wine yeast. But lager yeast isn't commonly used in cider or wine making.

 

[Dominic1920]

Why the tannins? What does that do?

 

[Yooper]

Why the tannins? What does that do?

It provides a "bite" to the cider or wine, like the flavor in big red wines.

 

[Listen_Up_Sonny]

I'll chime in with a bit of personal experience:

I did a side by side comparison on 2 batches of traditional Apfelwein with the only difference being dextrose vs table sugar. I straight substituted the table sugar, pound for pound. The only difference I could see right after carbonation was that the table sugar had a more carmel color. Since then, the batches have been commingled and aged for about 6 months. I can't tell one bottle from the next. I didn't take gravity readings, so I can't comment on the ABV, but the real world affect seems to be about the same.

Champagne yeast should work fine. If it is too dry for your tastes, you can back sweeten it with sprite. In my experience, even with montrachet yeast, AW is too dry for most people without back sweetening and I always keep sprite in the house for this purpose. The average person probably likes a sweeter product than someone who home-brews and understands that most commercial products are sweetened.

Champagne yeast shouldn't make a difference in clear bottles, but, to be clear, you cannot carbonate in a plain wine bottle. Any carbonated product needs beer bottles/champagne bottles. I bottle in 12 oz beer bottles because they are free and AW is strong enough that its nice to be able to only open a small bottle.

 

[podz]

Champagne yeast shouldn't make a difference in clear bottles, but, to be clear, you cannot carbonate in a plain wine bottle. Any carbonated product needs beer bottles/champagne bottles.

Something like 2 million people make "Sima" every year in Finland and they all carbonate them in normal, thin-walled wine bottles. Without explosions.

 

[W0GWT]

Something like 2 million people make "Sima" every year in Finland and they all carbonate them in normal, thin-walled wine bottles. Without explosions.

The main issue with wine bottles is the cork being pushed out by the pressure of the carbonation level that most people shoot for; a bottle bomb is a separate issue.

 

[podz]

The main issue with wine bottles is the cork being pushed out by the pressure of the carbonation level that most people shoot for; a bottle bomb is a separate issue.

We use these and they provide a quite good level of carbonation. They shoot off if they can't stand the buildup, you put them back on every morning and eventually there is no problem - highly carbonated sima.

 

[calmingapple]

I worry about bottle bombs for two reasons:

-- I am fermenting my wine inside a hallway closet. If a bottle were to explode I wouldn't worry about clothes or flooring getting ruined; it would be my dog I would worry about. Broken glass & sweet alcohol everywhere = recipe for disaster

With that said, however, I work from home a lot and I would be here to push back in any cork or cap (such as the one shown in the picture). So yes I see that the risk for explosion or cap coming off to be there... but it can be done without incident. Again, especially if someone is around to check on them.

I do hate the overthinking and worrying I do LOL. Thanks for the tips everyone.

We use these and they provide a quite good level of carbonation. They shoot off if they can't stand the buildup, you put them back on every morning and eventually there is no problem - highly carbonated sima.

 

[calmingapple]

So essentially one *can* get away with bottling highly carbonated product - just find a suitable cap to go with it?

So the chance of the bottle actually exploding is quite low?

I'd love to run a poll on this, asking how many people have had to clean up bottle bombs after x amount of sugar added!

Something like 2 million people make "Sima" every year in Finland and they all carbonate them in normal, thin-walled wine bottles. Without explosions.

 

[Yooper]

So essentially one *can* get away with bottling highly carbonated product - just find a suitable cap to go with it?

So the chance of the bottle actually exploding is quite low?

I'd love to run a poll on this, asking how many people have had to clean up bottle bombs after x amount of sugar added!

If you use beer bottles, it would be fine. For wine bottles, my experience is not as positive.

 

[podz]

So essentially one *can* get away with bottling highly carbonated product - just find a suitable cap to go with it?

So the chance of the bottle actually exploding is quite low?

I'd love to run a poll on this, asking how many people have had to clean up bottle bombs after x amount of sugar added!

Yep, those rubber caps work great if you can find them where you live. They're tough and can be reused like forever. They fit a standard wine bottle.

 

[calmingapple]

Hi podz,

Can you tell me more about how to make highly carbonated sima wine using regular wine bottles and these special caps?

I am looking for a shortcut until I can source fortified bottles locally. The place I buy from has crazy shipping on any bottle or glass item.

Thanks!

We use these and they provide a quite good level of carbonation. They shoot off if they can't stand the buildup, you put them back on every morning and eventually there is no problem - highly carbonated sima.

 

[podz]

Hi podz,

Can you tell me more about how to make highly carbonated sima wine using regular wine bottles and these special caps?

I am looking for a shortcut until I can source fortified bottles locally. The place I buy from has crazy shipping on any bottle or glass item.

Thanks!

Well, I guess those rubber wine bottle caps are just a Finnish thing because I didn't find them on Amazon. They were probably invented exactly for the reason that people want to reuse wine bottles for bottling and carbing sima.

Maybe I should start exporting them to the rest of the world!

 

[calmingapple]

I'd love to try making Sima and other carbonated drinks. I've just been afraid to get moving on it because I only have regular un-fortified wine bottles and corks

Well, I guess those rubber wine bottle caps are just a Finnish thing because I didn't find them on Amazon. They were probably invented exactly for the reason that people want to reuse wine bottles for bottling and carbing sima.

Maybe I should start exporting them to the rest of the world!

 

[calmingapple]

Yes! You could open up an ebay store (I'd be your 1st customer) and sell those!

Well, I guess those rubber wine bottle caps are just a Finnish thing because I didn't find them on Amazon. They were probably invented exactly for the reason that people want to reuse wine bottles for bottling and carbing sima.

Maybe I should start exporting them to the rest of the world!

 

[podz]

Yes! You could open up an ebay store (I'd be your 1st customer) and sell those!

Hah, the postage fees would cost more than the product!

 

[outside92129]

i end up putting in a can of frozen concentrate prior to serving to sweeten it up and add a bit more apple flavor.

 

[calmingapple]

Where are you shipping from?

I am happy to pay a bit up front for shipping if I simply cannot source the product with ease

I'm thinking these caps can go via padded envelope?

But yah once you reach a certain gram weight, shipping does sky rocket!

Hah, the postage fees would cost more than the product!

 

[calmingapple]

Yes! This was my thinking as well.

i end up putting in a can of frozen concentrate prior to serving to sweeten it up and add a bit more apple flavor.

 

[podz]

Where are you shipping from?

I am happy to pay a bit up front for shipping if I simply cannot source the product with ease

I'm thinking these caps can go via padded envelope?

But yah once you reach a certain gram weight, shipping does sky rocket!

See my location : Helsinki.

Here's some quick math.

You need 25 wine bottles to bottle a 5 gallon batch.

Those 10 packs of rubber caps might be found for about 2.50 - 3 EUR. So, three packs of rubber sima caps comes to between 7.50 and 9 EUR.

If the letter is max 3cm thick, then it's the lowest postage. If I can manage to squeeze them almost flat into a stiff envelope (which costs about 2 EUR from the post office), the postage is the cheapest - either 9 EUR (max 250g) or 13.50 EUR (251-500g). Padded envelope would go past 3cm thick and then the fee becomes 3 or 4 times more.

And I'd need 10 EUR just for taking the time to do all of that. So in the end, those rubber caps end up costing you 1 EUR each - 30 EUR total. Is that worth it to you?

 

[calmingapple]

Sent you a private msg. These caps are VERY useful. I have no frigging idea why something like this isn't immediately available in Canada and the U.S.
These appear reusable too.

See my location : Helsinki.

Here's some quick math.

You need 25 wine bottles to bottle a 5 gallon batch.

Those 10 packs of rubber caps might be found for about 2.50 - 3 EUR. So, three packs of rubber sima caps comes to between 7.50 and 9 EUR.

If the letter is max 3cm thick, then it's the lowest postage. If I can manage to squeeze them almost flat into a stiff envelope (which costs about 2 EUR from the post office), the postage is the cheapest - either 9 EUR (max 250g) or 13.50 EUR (251-500g). Padded envelope would go past 3cm thick and then the fee becomes 3 or 4 times more.

And I'd need 10 EUR just for taking the time to do all of that. So in the end, those rubber caps end up costing you 1 EUR each - 30 EUR total. Is that worth it to you?

 

[calmingapple]

I want to make no more than a gallon of carbonated sima or similar.

10 caps would be very useful. I've bought crazier things off ebay for more money.

I'd totally buy one pack of 10 from you!

 

[podz]

I want to make no more than a gallon of carbonated sima or similar.

10 caps would be very useful. I've bought crazier things off ebay for more money.

I'd totally buy one pack of 10 from you!

You're not buying them from me, I'd be doing you a service of going shopping for you and shipping them to you.

A single ten-pack is still going to run you 24 EUR in the end, that's 34 CAD. And I don't have an Ebay store, nor am I going to start one. Paypal in advance and I'll get them out to you after the paypal has cleared to my bank account (about 1 week).

Only a little bit more expensive to get 3 ten-packs, then you can do an entire 20 litre batch. But whatever. If you want some sima caps, then I'll send you my paypal address.

 

[calmingapple]

No. I realize I misread the amt for the ten pack. Sorry for the trouble.