Anyone tried keg Conditioning ?

[theQ]

I am tired of bottling and I keg. However there is, to my taste pallet, a big difference on bottle conditioning belgians and saisons. So I thought I about trying to keg condition after priming with the right amount of sugar.

Anyone tried this, any shortcomings ? I'd love to hear your story!

 

[SirSpectre]

Works just fine! I did it a handful of times already instead of force carbing kegs. The first 4 or 5 pours out of it were a bit yeasty, but then they were perfect.

Now a days, unless it requires conditioning with a different yeast strain, I force carb and let the keg sit in my basement for 6 months. I haven't noticed any differences in taste.

 

[theQ]

@SirSpectre I always have the feel that is a hit and miss with force carbonation. I can't seem to have control of what I get (the head space in the keg plays major role and that is variable from batch to batch). What is your technique for 2.3-2.5 CO2 volume beer.

 

[SirSpectre]

I tend to brew 5.5 gallons at a time so I can always have the head space I need in the Keg, which is to say, very little.

My technique is fill it up, Attach Co2 run a little and purge out oxygen. Then I put it in my keezer for a day before hooking it up to carb. Liquid is at 40F and set regulator to 12-13 PSI and wait a week and reduce pressure to 10 psi (long lines) and serve.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I force carb but after reading the farmhouse ales book I realized I was missing that 2-4 weeks at warm temps that bottle conditioning imparts. So now i keg, hook up CO2 line and keep it in my ferm chamber at 70F for minimum 2 weeks. I noticed a subtle but pleasant difference in the beer. it's my standard practice for almost all belgian beers now.

I also always try to get 5.25-5.5 gallons into the carboy, so when I keg I've got as little head-space as possible. For me I use 11 PSI at 38F and am always happy with my carb.

 

[NSMikeD]

I keg condition. My kegerator only has room for one keg, so I prime and condition the kegs. Initially, do connect the CO2 and purge the air using about 20-30psi, then unhook and then let the priming sugar and the yeast do the rest.

I do not know for sure what the final psi is when I am ready to tap, but once I do tap and put it on serving pressure, once it's cooled down to serving temperature it's at equilibrium as far as I can tell and good to drink.

My typical schedule is 2 week in the primary and then 2-4 weeks conditioning in the keg.

I brew ales and normally condition between 60°- 68° so I usually let it cool overnight in the kegerator before serving.

 

[ba-brewer]

I occasionally condition in the keg, the recommendation of using half the amount of sugar as you would for bottling seems to work for me. I too purge the keg and leave it at 30psi to ensure the keg does not loose it's seal before the yeast kicks in. The pressure usually drop down to close to 10 or 12PSI in a day or so but then starts to increase. I have a pressure gauge attached to a quick disconnect to monitor pressure.

I also force carb at room temp some times, purge and set to 30psi for a day or so then remove pressure and see where it drops. I top back up to 30psi and allow to settle back down.

I try to get slightly carb up to slightly less than the planned volume to make sure it does not over carb. With the pressure gauge I can bleed off excess pressure if I need to.

Probable just my imagination but it seems like I get better head retention and lacing from naturally carbed kegs.

 

[schematix]

Keg condition.... I transfer to the serving keg with about 2 gravity points remaining. Seal the serving keg and then after about a week i check with a pressure gauge to make sure its not too high. If it is, then i attach a spund valve until it comes down to where i want it.

If you're already at FG, then add priming sugar and use the same process.

 

[theQ]

I tend to brew 5.5 gallons at a time so I can always have the head space I need in the Keg, which is to say, very little.

My technique is fill it up, Attach Co2 run a little and purge out oxygen. Then I put it in my keezer for a day before hooking it up to carb. Liquid is at 40F and set regulator to 12-13 PSI and wait a week and reduce pressure to 10 psi (long lines) and serve.

Interesting. I might have done it all wrong till now.

I hook it up right away, set it to 30psi, for a day then drop it to 20psi for another then under 10 to serve but I not reallly happy, seems foamy.

 

[schematix]

Interesting. I might have done it all wrong till now.

I hook it up right away, set it to 30psi, for a day then drop it to 20psi for another then under 10 to serve but I not reallly happy, seems foamy.

^^^ This is the recipe for oxidized keg beer.

 

[ba-brewer]

Interesting. I might have done it all wrong till now.

I hook it up right away, set it to 30psi, for a day then drop it to 20psi for another then under 10 to serve but I not reallly happy, seems foamy.

You could skip the 20psi step and maybe only 12hours at 30psi and probably get less foam. You can also do bursts of 30PSI instead of leaving on continuously to better control the carb level.

If you put a warm pressurized keg into a cold keezer the pressure will drop from the cold temp and CO2 going into solution. Without pressure lines hooked up you run the risk of the keg loosing it's seal if pressure dips too low. Assuming you have back pressure valves it is safer to just hook up to serving pressure.

 

[Jim311]

I dont see why it would lead to oxidization?

 

[schematix]

I dont see why it would lead to oxidization?

2 reasons:

1. Purging the head space in the keg with CO2 only leads to dilulation. Air is about 200,000 ppm oxygen so you need to dilute A LOT to get it down to reasonable levels

2. Tank CO2 is about 99.9% pure. There's enough oxygen in the CO2 to degrade an entire keg when force carbed.

 

[Jim311]

People force carb all the time? Whether you force carb or just set and forget you're introducing the exact same amount of CO2. I guess I'm just not following your line of thinking here.

 

[ba-brewer]

2 reasons:

1. Purging the head space in the keg with CO2 only leads to dilulation. Air is about 200,000 ppm oxygen so you need to dilute A LOT to get it down to reasonable levels

2. Tank CO2 is about 99.9% pure. There's enough oxygen in the CO2 to degrade an entire keg when force carbed.

Someone at HBT worked out the math and if you pressurize to 30psi then purge to zero pressure and repeat 7 times you have taken the oxygen level down to trivial concentrations.

I drink my beer in a reasonable amount of time so I don't worry about the residual oxygen.

edit: I think the person that did the math is @doug293cz, but I could not find the post.

 

[govner1]

I am tired of bottling and I keg. However there is, to my taste pallet, a big difference on bottle conditioning belgians and saisons. So I thought I about trying to keg condition after priming with the right amount of sugar.

Anyone tried this, any shortcomings ? I'd love to hear your story!

I keg condition fairly often (especially if my pipeline is full).
I use about 25% less priming malt/sugar (3/4 oz/gal) and seal the keg with a short burst of CO2. I then leave it at room temp. (70-72) for about ten days.
One thing I've done to a number of my kegs to avoid picking up sediment, is to shorten the dip tube about 1/2" & I've added SS filters to the ends as well.

 

[schematix]

Someone at HBT worked out the math and if you pressurize to 30psi then purge to zero pressure and repeat 7 times you have taken the oxygen level down to trivial concentrations.

I drink my beer in a reasonable amount of time so I don't worry about the residual oxygen.

edit: I think the person that did the math is @doug293cz, but I could not find the post.

Yah i know you got the right guy, but i think he concluded it was lot higher number of cycles.... like 30 @ 30 psi. It was to the point that it was a significant fraction of a 5lb tank.

 

[schematix]

People force carb all the time? Whether you force carb or just set and forget you're introducing the exact same amount of CO2. I guess I'm just not following your line of thinking here.

Force carbing is the term for applying external CO2 pressure via a tank.

Quick carbing is the term for applying more pressure than is needed in order to acheive the desired level of carbonation in a shorter time. Its usually like 30 psi for 1-2 days.

My point has to do with the amount of oxygen you get into a keg. Tank CO2 will oxidize your beer because even at 99.9% purity, there's still more than enough oxygen.

The best method i've seen to date involves water purging a keg, and transferring in a closed loop system to the serving keg at the tail end of active fermentation. The yeast scavenge any oxygen introduced down to essentially 0.

Sounds complex, and its a bit more involved than racking from an open lidded bucket into the top of an open keg, but when you've done it right, you know it.

 

[jdonley]

Force carbing is the term for applying external CO2 pressure via a tank.

Quick carbing is the term for applying more pressure than is needed in order to acheive the desired level of carbonation in a shorter time. Its usually like 30 psi for 1-2 days.

My point has to do with the amount of oxygen you get into a keg. Tank CO2 will oxidize your beer because even at 99.9% purity, there's still more than enough oxygen.

The best method i've seen to date involves water purging a keg, and transferring in a closed loop system to the serving keg at the tail end of active fermentation. The yeast scavenge any oxygen introduced down to essentially 0.

Sounds complex, and its a bit more involved than racking from an open lidded bucket into the top of an open keg, but when you've done it right, you know it.

so you fill the keg with sanitized h2o, push it out with c02, then closed transfer beer from carboy into purged keg? does this use a **** ton of gas?

 

[ba-brewer]

Yah i know you got the right guy, but i think he concluded it was lot higher number of cycles.... like 30 @ 30 psi. It was to the point that it was a significant fraction of a 5lb tank.

Thanks for clarifying, I guess I never seen the follow up. I was already doing 6 or 7 purges before seeing his post and felt good that he put numbers to what I was doing. I am for sure not doing 30 purges and still feel good with my 7 30psi purges as that gets me up to 6 month without noticeable oxidation(most are gone way before then).

 

[schematix]

so you fill the keg with sanitized h2o, push it out with c02, then closed transfer beer from carboy into purged keg? does this use a **** ton of gas?

I just use tap water on a clean and sanitized keg.

First off, my gas dip tubes are all cut flush on the inside. You can do this same procedure though by taking off the gas post and reattaching it once fully purged.

I fill the keg completely to the top water water, insert the lid, then open the PRV, push water into the keg via the liquid port. Once water comes out of the PRV i attach a gas QD to the gas side and close the PRV. A few seconds later it'll burp a few times and then a solid stream comes out. At this point there is still a bubble remaining in the lid, so i tilt the keg to 45 kegs (gas QD UP), and let it burp again. Then i tilt the keg to just past horizontal (again, gas QD UP), and that will get the last remaining bubble out of the lid. Slowly rotate back to 45 degrees, give it a few wiggles, and if no more bubbles come out then simultaneously pull off the water supply and gas QD. You now have a keg with at most a few mL of air.

Then you use tank CO2 to push it all back out the liquid port.

Racking requires almost no, if any CO2. You can start the transfer using CO2, but if you equalize the head pressure in fermenter and the serving keg, it'll self sustain and siphon like normal. The best part about this is when it gets to the end there's no blow out. It just stops.

See my link below about corny keg fermenting. This idea can be adapted to just about any type of fermenter.

 

[bleme]

If it is a hoppy beer or I need it quickly for some reason, I force carb but otherwise I do similar to NSMike in post #6.

 

[theQ]

Thank you all for the input.

Few notes and observations.

Some said about priming the keg they use 25-50% less priming sugar however that doesn't make sense to me. If I want to get 3.0 CO2 Volume using half would only give me way less carbonation.

Then if say I carbonated at 3.0 and in 1-2 months I have 1/4 keg left, won't the CO2 came out of the liquid ? What psi value would ensure the CO2 equilibrium at 40F, I tried to find some technical articles on this but no luck.

I too think that force carbonation leads to less lacing and less head retention and conditioning does make the beer taste better.

I don't see how beer will oxidize if do 30psi, doesn't make sense - the Oxigen will always be pushed to the top of the head space even if there would be some Oxigen left in. Secondly the CO2 is at the bottom of the head-space, that's the one the gets in the liquid.

 

[ba-brewer]

The less priming sugar thing has something to do the head space or surface area of the keg I forget exactly, just know it seems to work for me. Once you start serving the keg then the CO2 tank and the pressure set on the regulator makes sure your beer stays carbonated.

 

[shallywag]

See this chart. So at 40deg you would need between 9-13psi.

 

[shallywag]

See this chart. So at 40deg you would need between 9-13psi.

Thank you all for the input.

Few notes and observations.

Some said about priming the keg they use 25-50% less priming sugar however that doesn't make sense to me. If I want to get 3.0 CO2 Volume using half would only give me way less carbonation.

Then if say I carbonated at 3.0 and in 1-2 months I have 1/4 keg left, won't the CO2 came out of the liquid ? What psi value would ensure the CO2 equilibrium at 40F, I tried to find some technical articles on this but no luck.

I too think that force carbonation leads to less lacing and less head retention and conditioning does make the beer taste better.

I don't see how beer will oxidize if do 30psi, doesn't make sense - the Oxigen will always be pushed to the top of the head space even if there would be some Oxigen left in. Secondly the CO2 is at the bottom of the head-space, that's the one the gets in the liquid.

 

[schematix]

Thank you all for the input.



Few notes and observations.



Some said about priming the keg they use 25-50% less priming sugar however that doesn't make sense to me. If I want to get 3.0 CO2 Volume using half would only give me way less carbonation.



Then if say I carbonated at 3.0 and in 1-2 months I have 1/4 keg left, won't the CO2 came out of the liquid ? What psi value would ensure the CO2 equilibrium at 40F, I tried to find some technical articles on this but no luck.



I too think that force carbonation leads to less lacing and less head retention and conditioning does make the beer taste better.



I don't see how beer will oxidize if do 30psi, doesn't make sense - the Oxigen will always be pushed to the top of the head space even if there would be some Oxigen left in. Secondly the CO2 is at the bottom of the head-space, that's the one the gets in the liquid.

There's a lot wrong with your post here but since I'm mobile at the moment I'm only going to address a couple.

First your concept of oxygen and co2 forming their own distinct layers isn't how it works. Gasses mix. End of story. This isn't oil and water.

Also you get oxidation by force carbonating with tank co2. With naturally fermentation the yeast consume all the o2 and leave a nearly oxygen free environment.

When you naturally carbonate it works similarly to force carbonating. You just need to hit the pressure in the keg at which you get the desired volumes co2 for the actual temp of the keg. If you have 30 psi at room temp (approx normal), when you chill it to fridge temps it'll drop to approx 13 psi. Volumes of co2 dissolved will remain constant as long as your tank applies the 13 psi to fill the volume voided when you made a pour.

 

[schematix]

Get a cheap pressure gauge and couple it to a keg gas disconnect. This way you can monitor progress of the cycle too. When it stops increasing, you've maxed out. If it gets too high either spund or manually bleed.

 

[theQ]

I beg to differ about the gases.

They do separate by molecular weight when there is no turbulence. Lighter gases always go up. Think Nitrogen filled balloons the can go up thousands of feet.

Sure gases mix up as their molecular bond is way weaker then in liquids and any turbulence would move them around mixing them but when no turbulence is present they will settle,

IMHO in a tight contained space, where there are no turbulence, the oxygen will go to the top and chances to get in the liquid are low.

And I agree if you would expose the beer for a long long time to the 0.01 % of Oxygen that's in the CO2 tank there is a chance to oxidize but will take a while to do so!

I give my beer no chance to oxidize because I drink it before that happens
Cheers!

 

[schematix]

I beg to differ about the gases.

They do separate by molecular weight when there is no turbulence. Lighter gases always go up. Think Nitrogen filled balloons the can go up thousands of feet.

Sure gases mix up as their molecular bond is way weaker then in liquids and any turbulence would move them around mixing them but when no turbulence is present they will settle,

IMHO in a tight contained space, where there are no turbulence, the oxygen will go to the top and chances to get in the liquid are low.

And I agree if you would expose the beer for a long long time to the 0.01 % of Oxygen that's in the CO2 tank there is a chance to oxidize but will take a while to do so!

I give my beer no chance to oxidize because I drink it before that happens
Cheers!

You can beg to differ but you are very, very wrong. Do some quick googling on how gases behave in a container and you'll see. Good videos on youtube too.

And your balloon example is non-sense. That is an example buoyancy. The air in the balloon is not mixing with the atmosphere.

And the keg beer will oxidize from tank co2, and its a reaction that occurs on the order of days, not weeks. If you like draining a keg every few days then be my guest.

 

[ba-brewer]

And the keg beer will oxidize from tank co2, and its a reaction that occurs on the order of days, not weeks. If you like draining a keg every few days then be my guest.

how do you serve your beer?

 

[schematix]

how do you serve your beer?

Bottle CO2.

The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.

If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.

The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Bottle CO2.



The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.



If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.



The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

This is very interesting. I had no idea tank co2 contained o2.

People have a very misguided idea of how oxygenation works most importantly how fast it happens. For example since I've been purging headspace of my blueberry wines after racking and doing closed transfers the wine retains its berry flavor longer however everything always points to a specific flavor developing from the oxygenation rather than what I'm noticing.

If you read about oxygenation of beer most people point to the sherry and cardboard flavors that develop but I think it's more than that, I've noticed degradation of flavor in oxidized beer within weeks with hoppy beers it's days.

I've been exclusively making Belgians for about a year now. I'm definitely going to consider doing the water replace purge of the keg, then naturally carbonate with priming sugar.

 

[schematix]

You are correct - it's not just a single flavor that just shows up, certain flavors also disappear. The flavors that come and go also vary by malt type and hopping.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

2 reasons:


2. Tank CO2 is about 99.9% pure. There's enough oxygen in the CO2 to degrade an entire keg when force carbed.

This interests me...

In your example, most co2 tanks are somewhere around 99.9% pure... only 0.1% of other gasses.

Oxygen in the atmosphere averages 21%.


So 0.001 x .21 = 0.00021 or 0.021% of oxygen contained in the co2 tank.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere on hbt that you'd want to be under 0.04% to eliminate the effects of oxidation? 0.021% would be way under that amount.



Also...

 

[couchsending]

I have done three test batches so far where I split a 6g batch into 2 3 gallon kegs and one I carbed low and slow while the other naturally conditioned/carbed. I will probably never force carb another beer. I've done it with sugar and additional dry yeast as well as wort plus dry yeast. Next round I'm going to do a pseudo krausen with wort I pulled before fermentation and a little dry yeast, just to see if I can cut a few days off the timeline by adding already active yeast. Personally I think it makes a huge difference in not only head retention but also in rounding out the profile of the beer. Everything seems to come together much better with no sharp edges.

Does anyone else think you actually might be able to go with higher carb levels as the carbonation seems to be much smoother?

 

[NSMikeD]

This interests me...

In your example, most co2 tanks are somewhere around 99.9% pure... only 0.1% of other gasses.

Oxygen in the atmosphere averages 21%.


So 0.001 x .21 = 0.00021 or 0.021% of oxygen contained in the co2 tank.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere on hbt that you'd want to be under 0.04% to eliminate the effects of oxidation? 0.021% would be way under that amount.



Also...

I am so lucky, my palette is not sensitive enough to detect the oxidation that occurs from purging with CO2.

While I appreciate chasing the theoretical ideal conditions for making beer, very so often I come across a great beer/style that has done everything wrong.

At the end of the day, happiness is a function of haves and wants. For me, 0.00021% is well within my level of acceptable given the ease of at which I can achieve it.

 

[ba-brewer]

Bottle CO2.

The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.

If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.

The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

Thanks for explaining.

So is the thought that once the carbonation is done and the beer is saturated with CO2 that having oxygen in the head space while serving is not a problem any more because the beer is already saturated and less will be absorbed?

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Thanks for explaining.

So is the thought that once the carbonation is done and the beer is saturated with CO2 that having oxygen in the head space while serving is not a problem any more because the beer is already saturated and less will be absorbed?

No. Carbonated beer most definitely can oxidize.

 

[Jim311]

There are some real bean counters in this hobby. I purge my kegs a few times and call it a day. There are extreme diminishing returns after you've purged 7 or 8 times. If you want to split hairs over the .0000002 percent oxygen in your keg then by all means closed transfer into purged kegs, or purge your kegs 2000 times if you wish. Maybe you can even figure out how to brew in a complete vacuum.