Anyone get upset with a streak of bad beer?

[the-adjunct-hippie]

I've been trying to nail down the NE IPA for the last 3 months and it's just proving difficult. All ten (small) batches have been really not great. My other regular IPA's have been dynamite, but as soon as I started actually "focusing" on making a NE IPA, they come out both too sweet and too bitter at the same time - a literal mess. Every batch is just something I would never drink on the regular. I've had positive feedback from others, but I can't say I enjoy the results so far. I've messed with pH, water chemistry, and different hop varietals. The most recent batch is the most enjoyable but it's rather empty.

Some of the batches use all late hopping techniques...say a boil volume of 10 quarts with a 1.5 oz volume of hops altogether for 20 minutes...then about another 2 oz of dry hop. Comes out palate-scrubbing, like a triple IPA! Yet it's cloyingly sweet despite no added fruit or anything.

Does base malt have a lot to do with it? Using basic Great Northwestern Pale Ale malt. Probably thinking about switching to Maris or Pearl.

It's getting to the point where i'm trying to reach this goal but I'm just getting tired of brewing it. Getting a little burned out even though I gotta just keep trying.

Anyone repeatedly try to nail a style to no avail? Just try try again?

I'm thinking about going back to traditional IPA techniques without the goofy junk and just supplement with fruit or lactose or whatever.

Cheers fellow HB'ers.

 

[myndflyte]

What was the recipe that you used last that you said was the most enjoyable?

 

[dmtaylor]

Yes, this kind of stuff happens to me. When I get super frustrated, I might stop brewing altogether for 6-12 months. It's happened a couple of times over the past 19 years. Then eventually I get back into it and everything is fine again.

Give us your recipe and we'll fix it for you.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, this kind of stuff happens to me. When I get super frustrated, I might stop brewing altogether for 6-12 months. It's happened a couple of times over the past 19 years. Then eventually I get back into it and everything is fine again.

I'm in precisely this funk right now, and as a consequence it's been roughly 7-8 months since my last brewing session. Trying hard to muster up the urge to brew again. In the meantime I've changed the cooler/tun from a braid to a bag, got myself some yeast nutrient and some zinc sulfate solution, contemplated a switch to no-sparge, and purchased some K-Metabisulfite to reduce dissolved oxygen. All changes contemplated to break the unlucky streak, and to inspire brewing again.

 

[Smellyglove]

I've brewed 26 batches of hefeweizen the last two and a half years. About 18 of them has been to chase down the perfect mouthfeel. The beers are not bad, so it's different than your situation, they are just lacking the last touch, but I never give up.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've brewed 26 batches of hefeweizen the last two and a half years. About 18 of them has been to chase down the perfect mouthfeel. The beers are not bad, so it's different than your situation, they are just lacking the last touch, but I never give up.

I'm also contemplating targeting 5.5 to 5.6 mash pH (as opposed to targeting 5.2-5.4 previously) for this reason, improved mouthfeel. And also mashing at a few degrees higher temperature, also for improved mouthfeel. Any hope for these changes to succeed?

My current funk revolves around brewing beers that have been very thin tasting, and lacking character. Oddly enough my now 7-8 month old last batch (a lager, bottled, W-34/70 yeast) is suddenly tasting nice and malty, and is no longer anywhere near thin, and it now has plenty of character. The only problem I perceive now is that the hops have muted and dulled for this one due to its age. What I need to figure out is why it takes months for my batches to come right as to nice maltiness and mouthfeel.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm also contemplating targeting 5.5 to 5.6 mash pH (as opposed to 5.2-5.4 previously) for this reason, improved mouthfeel. And also mashing at a few degrees higher temperature, also for improved mouthfeel. Any hope for these changes to succeed?

My current funk revolves around brewing beers that have been very thin tasting, and lacking character. Oddly enough my now 7-8 month old last batch (a lager, bottled, W-34/70 yeast) is suddenly tasting nice and malty, and is no longer anywhere near thin, and it now has plenty of character. The only problem I perceive now is that the hops have muted and dulled for this one due to its age. What I need to figure out is why it takes months for my batches to come right as to nice maltiness and mouthfeel.

How do you carb them? If you use straight sugar stop doing that as it tastes horrible (to me) and will thin a beer out substantially at least in the beginning.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How do you carb them? If you use straight sugar stop doing that as it tastes horrible (to me) and will thin a beer out substantially at least in the beginning.

Since my return to brewing a few years ago (after a long hiatus) I have indeed been carbing with table sugar (more specifically 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes, weighing a uniform 2.30 grams per cube per my scale, and listing only "sugar" as the ingredient). Years ago (before my hiatus) I carbed strictly with corn sugar, and I didn't have this funk. Perhaps this is the problem.

 

[Smellyglove]

Since my return to brewing a few years ago (after a long hiatus) I have indeed been carbing with table sugar (more specifically 'Domino Dots' sugar cubes, weighing a uniform 2.30 grams per cube per my scale, and listing only "sugar" as the ingredient). Years ago (before my hiatus) I carbed strictly with corn sugar, and I didn't have this funk. Perhaps this is the problem.

That's very likely to be correct. Glucose is a better tasting agent than sucrose. But for improved mouthfeel you should use pure co2 or carb with speise.

I belive it's the fructose in the sucrose molecule which does it. Or that the yeast have to split the sucrose into sucrose and glucose, and something happens there.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been using cane sugar for priming for >15 years and haven't had any real problems with it. That's over 100 batches. Hmm.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What about carbing with DME, or with invert sugar? The main problem I see here is figuring out how much sugar is actually present.

 

[Smellyglove]

What about carbing with DME, or with invert sugar? The main problem I see here is figuring out how much sugar is actually present.

I don't know how it would be with invert sugar, but you can do it with DME, but I would rather just use speise. With speise your carbing with "the same" as the main beer. You know the fermetability of the speise since you know the FG of the beer, so the speise has the same sugar profile as your main beer, and also same IBU/hop profile. You just set a side some wort in a container/bottle or such when you transfer the wort to the fermentor. The calculation for how much speise to use is pretty simple, google "braukaiser krausening". It's easier to do it by hand than using brewersfriends calculator since the hand formula includes the speise into the final volume of the beer.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

What was the recipe that you used last that you said was the most enjoyable?

Had citra and Blanc hops dry hopping for 3 days, used citra .5 oz as a late (15min) addition and centennial .5 oz about 30 minutes in. No "long boil" hop.

My grain profile was 2.5 lbs of Pale Ale malt, .75 lb wheat, .25 C20, and .25 of flaked oats. I think I had about 2 oz of flaked rice as well. My hop total including DH was 2.5 oz altogether. I threw some weird stuff like a half cup lactose and a half cup flour into the boil. S04 yeast.

The initial taste is a quick hit of sharpness followed by a lot of emptiness and then it finishes on slight white wine and lychee with hints of pepper. I just wish there was more "to it". And that's why I think I need to change malt profiles or else dry hop longer.

Cheers

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

That's very likely to be correct. Glucose is a better tasting agent than sucrose. But for improved mouthfeel you should use pure co2 or carb with speise.

I belive it's the fructose in the sucrose molecule which does it. Or that the yeast have to split the sucrose into sucrose and glucose, and something happens there.

I sat down one night in a drunken stupor (turns out it wasn't the worst thing I could have done), sat down in front of my binder, and wrote down every variable that might need to change in this brewing adventure.

I too use table sugar up until the most recent batch which I used corn sugar.

So that might be part of it.

 

[GPP33]

Had citra and Blanc hops dry hopping for 3 days, used citra .5 oz as a late (15min) addition and centennial .5 oz about 30 minutes in. No "long boil" hop.

My grain profile was 2.5 lbs of Pale Ale malt, .75 lb wheat, .25 C20, and .25 of flaked oats. I think I had about 2 oz of flaked rice as well. My hop total including DH was 2.5 oz altogether. I threw some weird stuff like a half cup lactose and a half cup flour into the boil. S04 yeast.

The initial taste is a quick hit of sharpness followed by a lot of emptiness and then it finishes on slight white wine and lychee with hints of pepper. I just wish there was more "to it". And that's why I think I need to change malt profiles or else dry hop longer.

Cheers

If you’re having trouble why not just go back to a known good NEIPA recipe, try that then modify to fit your tastes? Your recipe seems all kinds of off for this style. 30min and 15min hop additions are not “late” in terms of this style. Dry hopping during active fermentation is critical, lactose and flour.

Here’s a popular one.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/weldwerks-brewing-juicy-bits-neipa/

 

[Dland]

Heck, I've gad a streak if infected beer, even worse!!

But to your original question, I've had a streak of beers that could have been better. When I started messing with more late addition hops, I also overdid it some for the style I was making, age does tend to mellow that part out quite a bit.

Another thing I learned the hard way was not to brew a bunch of batches of a new style or using a new process in a row, over the course of a short time, so you don't get to taste fully aged beer before you try the next batch, and end up with 4 batches of beer with the same problem(assuming weekly brew sessions). So now I'll brew something I know I'll like while waiting for "experiment" age enough to judge and adjust.

 

[tofuguy]

I end up changing what I brew every couple brews to get a different perspective. I try to go back to these stores a year later and approach them a different way. We are always learning.

 

[North_of_60]

I moved from a place with my own well to a place with city water. My recipes that were great before were now awful. I as ready to quit.

I started to research water chemistry here on this forum. I think that getting rid of the chlorine and adjusting the mash pH have had the greatest effect on improving my beer. The last three batches I made have turned out very good.

 

[Home_alone1]

I make a bad batch once and a while and I just drink it and brew something else. I figure I’m not learning if I’m not messing up here and there. My two batches I have going now look to be promising and my best 2 yet.

 

[kh54s10]

"NE IPA, they come out both too sweet and too bitter at the same time." I would add thin and too juicy for me. If I wanted juice, I would drink Hawaiian Punch. I haven't tasted one yet that I liked so I have had no desire to try to brew one.

This might be a case for over analyzing. Look at the differences between the one that you like and the ones you didn't. Then expand on what you think made the one batch better.

You might also just move to another style for a while and try again later.

 

[bracconiere]

"Bad" NE IPA? Is it better then "Milwaukee's 'Best'"? lol

I want to quote dirty harry

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

If you’re having trouble why not just go back to a known good NEIPA recipe, try that then modify to fit your tastes? Your recipe seems all kinds of off for this style. 30min and 15min hop additions are not “late” in terms of this style. Dry hopping during active fermentation is critical, lactose and flour.

Here’s a popular one.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/weldwerks-brewing-juicy-bits-neipa/

See now is that recipe saying I need to put citra, El Dorado, and mosaic in for 40 min? That's a bit long imo.

I did a Congress Street clone to the T, and it came out both too sweet and too bitter - and Congress is one of my favorite beers.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

"Bad" NE IPA? Is it better then "Milwaukee's 'Best'"? lol

I want to quote dirty harry

I'll send you one, lol.

Again, I've had people say this is better than the local beer - but it's not satisfactory to me. I have to keep trying.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

I moved from a place with my own well to a place with city water. My recipes that were great before were now awful. I as ready to quit.

I started to research water chemistry here on this forum. I think that getting rid of the chlorine and adjusting the mash pH have had the greatest effect on improving my beer. The last three batches I made have turned out very good.

And see, water might be the key. We have rock hard water. Been using calcium chloride in all of these beers.

I get the look and feel down, and the aroma is explosive. But the flavor falls apart. Is that indicative of water quality?

One of my recent batches :

 

[filthyastronaut]

Most of this year I have been chasing lager styles, but without the benefits of a CO2 tank and kegs. A few of them have been acceptable, but I'm convinced that oxygen particularly on the cold side needs to be mitigated more than most ales to produce good results. I have refocused on Belgian beers recently and have been happy so far. I limit oxygen as much as I possibly can and these styles shine when bottle conditioned, so it works out. I won't make another lager unless I get a kegging setup, which may be a long time.

 

[bracconiere]

I'll send you one, lol.

Again, I've had people say this is better than the local beer - but it's not satisfactory to me. I have to keep trying.

The chase is the good part they say

 

[GPP33]

See now is that recipe saying I need to put citra, El Dorado, and mosaic in for 40 min? That's a bit long imo.

I did a Congress Street clone to the T, and it came out both too sweet and too bitter - and Congress is one of my favorite beers.

No, it’s a 40 minute whirlpool. With the exception of the small FWH addition everything is added AFTER the boil is stopped and is left to steep in the warm water. Play around with different whirlpool temps to vary the bitterness, flavor and aroma contributions.

Maybe the Congress Street had the same whirlpool callout that was misinterpreted?

 

[balrog]

"rock hard water" *and* you add CaCl?
I'm thinking before adding anything you should spend the $20-some-odd and find what you have.
And beware changing too many variables at a time, you'll never figure out what changed what outcome.
I also agree to go to a known NEIPA recipe, something for a baseline like this.

 

[North_of_60]

https://www.mudomaha.com/search?search_api_fulltext=/water

Your profile says your from Omaha, the link above is for the Omaha City water report. Using the data for your area and one of the brewing water programs you can make adjustments to your brewing water. There are several free programs available, Mash Made Easy, Bru’n Water, and Brewer’s Friend. If you have BeerSmith there is a water tool there as well.

Also important for city water is to remove the Chlorine. I use campdon tablets for this.

When I just added salts I didn’t see much improvement. The Campdon tablets made a difference but, pH adjustments yielded the biggest improvements. IMO you don’t have to hit your pH dead on. Just get it in the ball park and you will see big improvements.

 

[balrog]

Campden will remove chloramines (1 tablet in 20gal water)
Only time or boiling remove chlorine
So it depends on how the municipal system is chlorinating, which, like many water parameters, can/will change during the year/years.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

"rock hard water" *and* you add CaCl?
I'm thinking before adding anything you should spend the $20-some-odd and find what you have.
And beware changing too many variables at a time, you'll never figure out what changed what outcome.
I also agree to go to a known NEIPA recipe, something for a baseline like this.

I was under the impression that calcium chloride softened mouth feel.

 

[North_of_60]

Campden will remove chloramines (1 tablet in 20gal water)
Only time or boiling remove chlorine
So it depends on how the municipal system is chlorinating, which, like many water parameters, can/will change during the year/years.

Time and boiling will remove chlorine but not chloramine.

Campdon tablets will remove both chlorine and chloramine. See linked below or google for more:

https://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/brew-tips-chlorine-removal-with-campden-tablets/

 

[balrog]

Time and boiling will remove chlorine but not chloramine.

Campdon tablets will remove both chlorine and chloramine. See linked below or google for more:

https://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/brew-tips-chlorine-removal-with-campden-tablets/

Thanks for fixing that for me. Dunno why I never knew that.

 

[Iseneye]

Dry hopping during active fermentation is critical, lactose and flour.

Lactose and flour are critical? It is unlikely the big boys are using flour and lactose.

 

[duffy5018]

1. Cut the lactose. That's your sweetness. Yeast can't do anything with lactose, so it'll taste sweet because it IS sweet.
2. Cut the boil hops out almost altogether. Shoot for 30-40 IBU, max. For 5gal, I do about .25 oz at 15min, 3oz of a variety of hops for 15min whirlpool at 180F, 3-4oz whirlpool at 120F for 30min, cool, transfer to fermenter. Dry hop with about 3oz at 48hrs, a other 3oz 2 days before kegging.
3. Keg or bottle early. Like 8 days after pitching yeast. And, one of the most important things for a NEIPA, limit oxygen contact with the beer when kegging/bottling.
4. Find out what kind of water you're using. Or make your own (my preferred method). I shoot for 75/150/75 Ca/Cl/SO4 ratios with a mash ph of 5.20-5.35. I've found this gives me the best mouthfeel and reduces the bitter to a rounded level, but not overly present.

Also, drop the flour. It's a gimmick and not needed for haze. On that note, neither is wheat or oats, but those aren't wrong nor your issue.

This is my latest using about 75% 2 row, 20% golden promise, and a little carafoam and aromatic to round it out, 8oz dextrose to dry it out and about a lb of citra, mosaic, and galaxy. Was better than anything I can get here locally.

 

[stosh]

I've had positive feedback from others, but I can't say I enjoy the results so far.

I've had this situation recently. People rave about my latest batch while I'm thinking it kinda sucks as I nod and smile and try to get them to drink more so I can free up my keg (you know you're a home brewer when...)

It's getting to the point where i'm trying to reach this goal but I'm just getting tired of brewing it. Getting a little burned out even though I gotta just keep trying.

Anyone repeatedly try to nail a style to no avail? Just try try again?

This is where I drew the line. I have a type A personality that's hardcore driven and when I get my sights on something it's hard for me to stop myself. In my professional life it got so bad it was causing health problems. One of the reasons I brew is to decouple from my business as a stress reliever. Well...I realized brewing was stressing me out b/c I wouldn't give up trying the same recipe/type and I got burned out.

I took a step back and looked over my brew notes at the batches I have made in the past that I really liked. I decided to brew some of those and of course they came out great. That got me back to no stress brew days and delicious beer. It also gave me time to read up a little more on the other beers I was struggling with. I hit the reset button and now things are brewing out better.

That's what works for me maybe it can work for you.

 

[GPP33]

Lactose and flour are critical? It is unlikely the big boys are using flour and lactose.

Good catch. Didn’t really finish my thought there. I was talking about things wrong with the recipe. Lactose in an IPA and flour in any beer seem like a great way to screw it up and I highly doubt any good NEIPA has either. I’d drop them both.

 

[GPP33]

1. Cut the lactose. That's your sweetness. Yeast can't do anything with lactose, so it'll taste sweet because it IS sweet.
2. Cut the boil hops out almost altogether. Shoot for 30-40 IBU, max. For 5gal, I do about .25 oz at 15min, 3oz of a variety of hops for 15min whirlpool at 180F, 3-4oz whirlpool at 120F for 30min, cool, transfer to fermenter. Dry hop with about 3oz at 48hrs, a other 3oz 2 days before kegging.
3. Keg or bottle early. Like 8 days after pitching yeast. And, one of the most important things for a NEIPA, limit oxygen contact with the beer when kegging/bottling.
4. Find out what kind of water you're using. Or make your own (my preferred method). I shoot for 75/150/75 Ca/Cl/SO4 ratios with a mash ph of 5.20-5.35. I've found this gives me the best mouthfeel and reduces the bitter to a rounded level, but not overly present.

Also, drop the flour. It's a gimmick and not needed for haze. On that note, neither is wheat or oats, but those aren't wrong or your issue.

This is my latest using about 75% 2 row, 20% golden promise, and a little carafoam and aromatic to round it out, 8oz dextrose to dry it out and about a lb of citra, mosaic, and galaxy. Was better than anything I can get here locally. View attachment 591357

See that’s a great looking beer. Most people making NEIPAs are somehow under the impression that it should be a completely opaque muddy looking beverage that honestly look completely unappealing to me.

 

[Chris Grubb]

Haven’t made a NEIPA, yet, but from my reading on here, it seems very few if any hops are added to the boil, mostly whirlpool if not all dry hop, and typically add much more hops than your recipe. I would eliminate the “bittering” or boil hops to see if that helps the bitterness and add much more dry hopping

 

[Ironman]

I’ve been brewing for over twenty years off and on and many of those gaps were due to bad batches; probably most of them. The last one was after trying to brew my first sour beer. I didn’t brew again for three years! It was an unholy mess. I was the president of my homebrew club and we did a megabrew of seven barrels of my recipe. Hundreds of gallons of wort went into the sewer the day we brewed and it only got worse. Brew a few batches of your favorite trusted recipe as soon as possible and tell yourself “I brew great beer”. Otherwise you can quickly get overwhelmed and stop and that is the worst thing of all. I’ve lost years between bad batches and some of my friends now brew commercially. On a side note I’ve seen commercial brewers dump barrels of bad beer. Never let it stop you from brewing but sometimes you need to step back and brew something to help your brewer’s esteem.