Anybody ranting about the results from the National HB competition yet?

[remilard]

Well Dallas is completed but I still don't have a score sheet.

They were all mailed Saturday (those that weren't emailed previously). I got mine in KC yesterday. I think you'll probably get yours tomorrow.

I had some heartbreaking losses in mini-bos, including a couple of beers that have medaled damn near every time they have been entered. A Cali Common with a 45 didn't get through (miraculously, that was a small category in Dallas, some mini-bos judge hated it I guess).

I won't complain though. Overall did very well.

 

[mattldm]

So the results are now posted...

I wonder who did the judging in San Diego!? About 90% of the winners are from the same club! Interesting!

 

[bob1852]

About 90% of the winners are from the same club! Interesting!

Yeah, because judges see the club name and brewer name at the same time they judge the beer. :fro:

 

[smp1]

Actually the cover sheet contains the information you seek. None of your entries advanced (if "Place Awarded" is blank on each).

Incorrect.
In fact, all of my beers that advanced had a blank in Place Awarded, and the "Advanced to Mini-BOS was not checked.

The one scoresheet that did have a place awarded did not advance.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Yeah, because judges see the club name and brewer name at the same time they judge the beer. :fro:

"OK everybody here's the deal: All submitted bottles must be New Belgium bottles, all way over-filled, all with the exact same O2 barrier cap, and with no markings on the cap. It won't guarantee that every over-filled NB bottle with an unmarked O2 cap on it is from our club...but it'll be close enough."

I'm totally not sayin'...just sayin'.

I think everybody occasionally gets conflicting comments on two scoresheets of the same beer. One judge says it's too light-bodied and another says it's too full-bodied...or whatever. It happens, it will happen again. Ever read the 'calibration' beer reviews they have in every Zymurgy? Those guys are highly ranked and even they sometimes write conflicting statements about the exact same beer. I know I can taste the same beer on two different days and be left with a very different perception.

 

[Beerrific]

Incorrect.
In fact, all of my beers that advanced had a blank in Place Awarded, and the "Advanced to Mini-BOS was not checked.

The one scoresheet that did have a place awarded did not advance.

So did the beer that advanced not place? And the beer with the place indicated, in fact, not place?

Sounds like the judges screwed up filling the sheets out.

 

[wonderbread23]

So did the beer that advanced not place? And the beer with the place indicated, in fact, not place?

Sounds like the judges screwed up filling the sheets out.

For what its worth, I had a beer with a '2' in place awarded that did not go on. Three other beers however with no information did go on. Maybe they were just f'n with us

 

[Beerrific]

"OK everybody here's the deal: All submitted bottles must be New Belgium bottles, all way over-filled, all with the exact same O2 barrier cap, and with no markings on the cap. It won't guarantee that every over-filled NB bottle with an unmarked O2 cap on it is from our club...but it'll be close enough."

That is why (most) rules say no bottles with raised lettering or any other identifying marks. Judges are also asked to not judge beers if they can identify the brewer of certain beer.

Could it be done? Sure. Was it? Highly doubt it.

Sounds like said club is excited to be hosting the NHC and is bringing it strong. They want to hear their names called to accept the awards in person.

 

[Beerrific]

For what its worth, I had a beer with a '2' in place awarded that did not go on. Three other beers however with no information did go on. Maybe they were just f'n with us

So what I am asking is did the beer not actually take 2nd place? If so, sounds like an judge or steward did not know that they have to wait until after miniBOS to fill in box. You might have been 2nd in that judging pair.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

That is why (most) rules say no bottles with raised lettering or any other identifying marks. Judges are also asked to not judge beers if they can identify the brewer of certain beer.

Could it be done? Sure. Was it? Highly doubt it.

Sounds like said club is excited to be hosting the NHC and is bringing it strong. They want to hear their names called to accept the awards in person.

Yea, I was just playing devil's advocate that it could happen. To say I highly doubt it would be an understatement.

Bottles with raised lettering have been acceptable in the NHC for at least two years. One of my scoresheets from this year even noted 'in New Belgium bottle'.

 

[mattldm]

So I entered one beer, it scored 35, made it to the mini-bos, but didnt advance. Im happy with my results. First time entering the NHC didnt expect to do as well as I did...

However, is it just me or does it seem a little "questionable" that 40% of the beers advancing from so cal all came from the club sponsoring the first round judging?

 

[ChrisKennedy]

So I entered one beer, it scored 35, made it to the mini-bos, but didnt advance. Im happy with my results. First time entering the NHC didnt expect to do as well as I did...

However, is it just me or does it seem a little "questionable" that 40% of the beers advancing from so cal all came from the club sponsoring the first round judging?

It should be just you.

QUAFF is a big competition club, so they encourage their members to enter lots of beers. QUAFF was the hosting club, so there was no shipping involved, they could just drop them off, making it easier to enter. QUAFF is full of great brewers so they brew good beer which helps them win.

All of these things combined can easily lead to QUAFF winning that many awards.

 

[Fat_Bastard]

So I entered one beer, it scored 35, made it to the mini-bos, but didnt advance. Im happy with my results. First time entering the NHC didnt expect to do as well as I did...

However, is it just me or does it seem a little "questionable" that 40% of the beers advancing from so cal all came from the club sponsoring the first round judging?

what was the name of the club?
maybe their club is like mine and has at least one bjcp nationally certified judge.That helps alot in evaluating which brews should do well before the contest.

 

[mattldm]

It should be just you.

QUAFF is a big competition club, so they encourage their members to enter lots of beers. QUAFF was the hosting club, so there was no shipping involved, they could just drop them off, making it easier to enter. QUAFF is full of great brewers so they brew good beer which helps them win.

All of these things combined can easily lead to QUAFF winning that many awards.

That is all true im sure, however im just sayin... the title of this thread is "anybody ranting about the results..." so I was just keeping it on topic!

what was the name of the club?
maybe their club is like mine and has at least one bjcp nationally certified judge.That helps alot in evaluating which brews should do well before the contest.

Probably true also.
The reason that I enter my beers in competitions is to get feedback and help me make better beers. If I had access to a BJCP judge on a regular basis im sure mine would be better competition beers. However a strict style fitting beer is not always the one that you want to drink everyday.

 

[Indyking]

So, the results of first round winners is available:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...-competition/winners/2011-first-round-winners

Looking at my judging center, the vast majority of the winners belong to brew clubs! Is this a joke? I thought individual homebrewers were judged separate from club members? How in the world do they think this is fair?

 

[wonderbread23]

So, the results of first round winners is available:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...-competition/winners/2011-first-round-winners

Looking at my judging center, the vast majority of the winners belong to brew clubs! Is this a joke? I thought individual homebrewers were judged separate from club members? How in the world do they think this is fair?

Everyone is judged against everyone. Judges don't know if you're in a club or not. Not sure how you could get much more fair than that.

 

[Indyking]

Everyone is judged against everyone. Judges don't know if you're in a club or not. Not sure how you could get much more fair than that.

So, the judges don't know? So, you are telling me that over 90% of the winners being members of homebrew clubs is just a coincidence then?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

So, the judges don't know? So, you are telling me that over 90% of the winners being members of homebrew clubs is just a coincidence then?

Correct. And sometimes the 'club' is HBT or The Brewing Network.

BTW, what is a Classic Amber Pils? (in your OP)

 

[wonderbread23]

So, the judges don't know? So, you are telling me that over 90% of the winners being members of homebrew clubs is just a coincidence then?

I would guess that a high percentage of individuals that sent in entries are affiliated with a club. Clubs tend to encourage members to compete ... also, perhaps club members tend to be the most enthusiastic/knowledgeable home brewers.

 

[Indyking]

Correct. And sometimes the 'club' is HBT or The Brewing Network.

BTW, what is a Classic Amber Pils? (in your OP)

OK then. Comparing the results from 2010 and 2011, I noticed that a good number of clubs show up repeatedly... not very encouraging for someone brewing independently, is it? Wonder if the judges make their evaluation in a blind fashion, i.e. without knowing the name of the brewer. Very interesting.

A classic amber pils is the name the judge gave to my beer submitted as Classic American Pilsner. I was as surprised with the term as you. Go figure!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I would guess that a high percentage of individuals that sent in entries are affiliated with a club. Clubs tend to encourage members to compete ... also, perhaps club members tend to be the most enthusiastic/knowledgeable home brewers.

I agree. At my HB club's meeting just before the NHC, the best judges are available and seated at a long table at the meeting and anyone wanting to enter a beer is encouraged to bring it in for an assessment. At least once they convinced me to enter a beer in a different category.

Without knowing how many entries were from folks in HB clubs it's hard to say if or how much a statistical anomaly that 90% is.

 

[Indyking]

also, perhaps club members tend to be the most enthusiastic/knowledgeable home brewers.

Sure, that's why it would not be fair to judge them against independent brewers! No wonder the vast majority of winners are affiliated to a club! Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage. Oh, well, such is life.

 

[wonderbread23]

Sure, that's why it would not be fair to judge them against independent brewers! No wonder the vast majority of winners are affiliated to a club! Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage. Oh, well, such is life.

...then join a club / start a club? Lot's of the 'clubs' are the virtual variety anyhow.

 

[remilard]

Lol. If you could channel this creativity to brewing instead of making excuses you would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[bob1852]

No wonder the vast majority of homebrewers are affiliated to a club!

Fixed for truth.

 

[Indyking]

Lol. If you could channel this creativity to brewing instead of making excuses you would be a force to be reckoned with.

I'm not making excuses if that was directed to me, I’m not sure.

I'm just saying that according to the posted results, a good number of people and their affiliated clubs repeated as winners in 2010 and 2011.

Of course it is quite possible that the reason why these folks keep showing up in the first positions is simply because they are too good and my bias tells me the reason for that is a possible advantage given by well-resourced clubs. I suppose I would not be surprised if they are there again in the first positions in 2012, so why bother? Why waste money, time, and most important, beer on that?

Anyway, when you get judges in a national competition, BJCP-certified as I understand it, placing your beer in a category that does not even exists in the BJCP classification; when one tells your beer is well carbonated and the other calls the same beer flat, and when there are major disagreements between judges about beer body for the same beer, well, that alone is frustrating enough…

 

[AnOldUR]

Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage.

Sorry to shoot down your theory, but my only club affiliation is right here on HBT. Made to the second round this year and last on my first and second attempt. Clubs are great, but if you pay attention here and use all the other resources, they’re not necessary.

 

[Indyking]

Sorry to shoot down your theory, but my only club affiliation is right here on HBT. Made to the second round this year and last on my first and second attempt. Clubs are great, but if you pay attention here and use all the other resources, they’re not necessary.

That is just chery picking... look at the results, the vast majority there are from very active clubs that I could find info at google...

Anyway, congrats on your second round achievement.

 

[AnOldUR]

... the vast majority there are from very active clubs that I could find info at google...

They do well because they have the drive to learn all they can about the brewing process not because they belong to clubs. All that you're showing is that the majority choose to join clubs as a means of improving, not that it's a necessity for improvement.

 

[MalFet]

Are you claiming that the FACT that they are in a club gave them an unfair advantage (i.e., because the judges were biased, because nobody else could get their beers there on time, etc.), or that the EXPERIENCE of being in a club (i.e., practice, knowledge, enthusiasm, etc.) did?

If it's the first, you are incorrect. If it's the second...well...of course it did. What do you want, a competition only for the grossly inexperienced? Eligibility based on never having read a book, talked to another brewer, visited a forum, or seen a brewery? Special bonus points for brewers who have never tasted beer before? What a strange and terrible world you live in.

 

[ayoungrad]

Indyking...

I haven't found a more amusing set of posts in quite a while. I needed a good laugh.

Thank you.

 

[Indyking]

What a strange and terrible world you live in.

Sorry but I also do wonder what world you live yourself.

So do you think that all knowledgeable and experienced brewers out there belong to clubs, so according to the competition results, there are no or very little home brewers out there not affiliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer? That's hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

ayongrad, I'm not funny, this guys is...

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Sorry but I also do wonder what world you live yourself.

So do you think that most knowladgible and experinced brewers out there belong to clubs, so accorinding to the competition results, there are no or very little homebrewers out there not affliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer? That's hillarious! Thanks for the laugh!

ayongrad, I'm not funny, this guys is...

It's not that they're not out there...they're just way less likely to enter competitions.

I wish I had a number to give you for the % of NHC entrants that were members of a HB club. Also, more experienced brewers are more likely to be in a club than less experienced brewers. I brewed for years before I joined a club.

 

[MalFet]

So do you think that all knowledgeable and experienced brewers out there belong to clubs, so according to the competition results, there are no or very little home brewers out there not affiliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer?

So you ARE talking conspiracy. I like it! I've long suspected that the BJCP was enthralled to the Illuminati. Seriously, though: you are accusing a respected organization (with many representatives on this board) of mass cheating. Classy.

Evidently, the majority of the country's top homebrewers (or at least those who are also interested in competitions) are in some vague way affiliated with a club. Is that a surprise? Why should it be? Most (but certainly not all) people who put the time and energy into getting to this level seek out other brewers. Most top-tier basketball players also played in high school, no? There's nothing to see here; move along.

 

[Indyking]

It's not that they're not out there...they're just way less likely to enter competitions.

I wish I had a number to give you for the % of NHC entrants that were members of a HB club. Also, more experienced brewers are more likely to be in a club than less experienced brewers. I brewed for years before I joined a club.

OK, that makes sense.

 

[Indyking]

So you ARE talking conspiracy. I like it! I've long suspected that the BJCP was enthralled to the Illuminati. Seriously, though: you are accusing a respected organization (with many representatives on this board) of mass cheating. Classy.

Evidently, the majority of the countries top homebrewers are in some vague way affiliated with a club. Is that a surprise? Why should it be? Most (but certainly not all) people who put the time and energy into getting to this level seek out other brewers. Most competitive basketball players also played in high school, no? There's nothing to see here; move along.

No, not a conspiracy! I just don't like to let things ignored when they are screaming at you. I did not check all judging centers. It may not be the same for all of them, but, in my center, a limited number of the same club-affiliation brewers were the winners in 2010 and 2011. OK, that may be just because, like SpanishCastleAle said, there were way more submissions from those clubs, but my understanding is that nobody can have more than 1 submission per subcategory. So, those clubs must be really good indeed in certain styles year after year…

 

[motobrewer]

So, those clubs must be really good indeed in certain styles year after year…

really!? club brewers are....good at brewing beer?!

good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!

 

[Indyking]

really!? club brewers are....good at brewing beer?!

good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!

You didn't get it, did you... not really worth spending time explaining... buy there was a "compared to" element here you seem to have completely missed. “good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!”... at your own terms. Lamentable.

 

[maskednegator]

QUAFF is 50% old dudes that have been brewing longer than I've been alive (since the days where the only craft beer was homebrew) and 50% young punks with a serious DIY streak that came of age in one of the greatest beer cities in the world.
I don't understand why you'd find it surprising that these types would congregate to share knowledge and collectively improve their fundamentally social hobby.

 

[mmb]

JZ brewed all the beer 12 years ago and just uses aliases to submit it for judging.

Best damn cream ale around, you can really taste the cream!