Another nearly extinct beer worthy of note

[unionrdr]

Well, after writing more of book two of my home brewing adventures, & discussing dampfbier, kottbusser, etc in a historical context, I mentioned how in the world to search for rare or extinct ales. Short of going to library of congress, etc. So I saved what I'd written up to that point & started a couple searches. After typing in " rare or extinct beer styles" in the search box, I stumbled onto some writings about a nearly extinct German ale called "mumme", pronounced "moom-eh". It's seems to be the ancestor of Altbier. But the Germans being such a protective lot, I had to settle on an old English recipe, dating back to the late 1600's. It's a 6 gallon AG recipe I'm going to convert to pb/pm biab. This is definitely a complicated grut ale, having 13 different herbs/spices in it.
Here's the recipe listed as a pic on the site I found;

I'm thinking of trying this one next, but I have to run it through BS2 first. I don't like the PM version they give. I can mash more grains than that. I think this is another one of those ancient ales worthy of a try. But I'm left wondering about what Northern European beans are exactly? I also found this on the German Beer institute site; http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/Mumme.html
And here's the yeast mentioned as a Wyeast activator; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/thames-valley-ale-yeast-activator-wyeast-1275.html

 

[Nerosync]

Very interesting, the more reading I have been doing and research I have been more intrigued by some of these forgotten beers. Especially since Porters which are one of my favorite beers was once considered extinct as well. I have not ventured into AG yet but when I do, I plan to definitely give a few of these a try.

 

[radishthegreat]

Noob question: Where do you source the fermentation additions? I recognize herbs used in modern cooking, but I'd have no idea where to get food-grade "blessed thistle."

(The Discovery World museum ran a series of "beers of antiquity" classes when I lived in Milwaukee; I was never able to schedule myself into one, so it's interesting to see the recipes on the 'net.)

 

[MotorcycleMatt]

I saved the pic, that looks like a fun beer to brew!

 

[thekage]

but I'd have no idea where to get food-grade "blessed thistle."

You take regular thistle to a monk or abbot and have them pray over it. Easy peasy.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's a decent place to start reading up on gruit or "grut" ales, as the Germans called them; http://www.gruitale.com/articles_en.htm I'll have to search some more for places to buy such ingredients, like health food or herbal healing stores. It mentions books that can be read on one page of the site.

 

[unionrdr]

There's also a book called " Sacred & Herbal Healing Beers" that goes into the use of these gruits & recipes. **! Just found a couple sites for gruits that might be better. This one sells gruit herbs, & herbs, etc for other uses as well; http://wildweeds.com/index.html

 

[unionrdr]

OK, I'm forced to look up a few of the things in the herb/gruit list separately. I'll list the links I find to individual info in this reply. Then maybe we can find these odd ones? These are more easily available; cardamom seeds & marjoram. I found these on the wildweeds site; elder flowers, sweet gale, pennyroyal, blessed thistle. They must be bought in lots of 4ozs for the most part. A few are more expensive & by the ounce.
Avens Root (Geum Urbanum)- AKA Wood Avens, Herb Bennet, Colewort, St Benedict's Herb. Recipe lists as clove substitute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geum_urbanum
Inner Bark of Fir (Albies Alba)- http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Abies+alba
http://www.sunnygardens.com/garden_plants/abies/abies_1179.php Silver Fir. The inner bark is used. Usually cooked. Dried & ground used to thicken soup, so it might've been used a clarifying agent?
Burnet (Sanguisorba Officinalis)- AKA Great Burnet- [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanguisorba_officinalis"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanguisorba_officinalis[/URL] The leaves are used in salads, as they taste reminicent of cucumber. Roots used topically & called Di Yu in Chinese medicine.
Betony (Betonica Officinalis)- Aka- Wood Betony, Woundwort, Bishopswort, Lousewort, American Lousewort. http://health-from-nature.net/Betony.html Whole herb is used during flowering period of June-August.
Sundew (Drosera Rotundifolia)- [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drosera_rotundifolia"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drosera_rotundifolia[/URL] This is a weird one. The flavonoids in this carnivorous plant are said to be anti-inflammatory & antispasmodic as an extract. I'm assuming they're extracted during the remainder of primary? This one might help stop my feet from burning/aching & my legs from twitching at night??
Wild Thyme (Thymus serpyllum)- AKA Breckland Thyme, Wild Thyme or Creeping Thyme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymus_serpyllum Aroma is said to range from heavily herbal to lightly lemon, depending on the variety.
Pennyroyal (Mentha Pulegium)- AKA Squaw Mint, Mosquito Plant, Pudding Grass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentha_pulegium The oils are said to be toxic to the liver, although teas were made from fresh or dried leaves. Maybe the toxic oils decarboxylase when dried? IDK...might be safer to just use spearmint leaves?
Blessed Thistle (Cnicus Benedictus)- AKA St Benedict's Thistle, Blessed Thistle, Holy Thistle, Spotted Thistle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnicus Crude extracts used to promote lactation. Sheez, what were they thinking? Roots used to heal burns & wounds. Not considered edible, The leaves are considered unpalatable if not bitter. Maybe used to bitter the ale? Also used in some Bitters formulas.
Marjoram (Origanum Vulgare)- AKA Wild Marjoram-http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/marwil20.html The tops were put into table beer To give it an aromatic flavor & as a preservative Before hops came into use. It was nearly in as much demand as ground ivy or woodsage!
** The deeper I get into this, the more I think some safer substitutions can & should be made. These herbs are boiled & added 4 days after primary fermentation starts. Only the 2ozs of Fir Branches are added 10 minutes left in the boil.

 

[unionrdr]

I'm definitely thinking that, since we're in North america, some of the species native to Europe will have to be subbed. The place I talked to can't get them either. Others are seasonal, etc. I'm still thinking of making a version of this with what we can get here. 6 gallon batch size will remain, as I have the Cooper's Micro Brew fermenter to put it in. I'll start writing a recipe in BS2 & see when the herbal site can get me the gruit ingredients. I'll post a PM recipe of my own when I get an initial one worked up. Does sound tasty after so much cooking with various herbs & such.

 

[unionrdr]

OK, I've worked up the initial pb/pm biab recipe, As in my original post, it's a 6 gallon recipe. I left out the inner fir bark, as it seems to have been used as an early clarifying agent. I also made safer substitutions for some of the plants used &/or were of questionable safety.
Hyssop-Sub for Sundew, a carnivorous plant, anise-like flavor?
Borage-Sub for Burnet leaves used in salad that taste like cucumber I can't obtain.
Black tea-Sub for the Betony,a black tea substitute
Spearmint-Sub for Pennyroyal, a spearmint substitute, the oils of which are said to be toxic to the liver.
Cloves-Sub for the Avens root that I can't find that is in itself a clove substitute.
Spruce extract in place of the Spruce branches/tips. I thought this might be easier to get & use?
The rest are commonly available & used. As for the recipe ingredients, I've got this so far...
******************Mel's Mumme*********************************
PB/PM BIAB, 6 gallons
***mash****************************************
1lb Great Northern Beans ( for northern European beans?)
4ozs-Crisp chocolate malt
11.2ozs-Crystal 10L
1lb-Malted oats
1lb, 11.2ozs-Weyermann's pale wheat malt
3lbs, 8ozs- Weyermann's pale malt
1/2-Whirlfloc tablet with 10 minutes left in the boil
3lbs-Briess Bavarian wheat plain DME-flame out
3lbs-plain light DME-flame out
2 packages-WY1275 Thames valley ale yeast
***********After 4 days in primary, add in sanitized bag***********
2ozs-Elderflowers
2ozs-Sweet Gale
4g-Cardamom
7g-Black Tea
7g-Borage
7g-Cloves
7g-Marjoram
7g-Spearmint
7g-Thyme
15g-Blessed Thistle
* BS2 gives a mash water volume of 2.79 gallons. Sparge water volume of 2.32 gallons @ 168F. I'll do it for my usual 10 minutes so I can stir the bag contents. The mash temp is said to need holding at 150F. I think I'll start it at 156F. Mash time is quoted as 2 hours. I'll have to double insulate the mash tun this time. Boil time is the usual one hour.
It says to simmer the beans (dried, soaked?) 20 minutes. Then add to mash & proceed. the spruce extract of 2 ounces will be added to the priming solution in this case.
Here's the numbers I got in beersmith 2.2. No IBU's since it doesn't calculate gruits.
Est OG-1.076
Est FG-1.018
SRM-18.1
Est ABV%-7.8%
Single infusion, medium body, batch sparge
Ale, single stage. *( I used British Strong Ale as the style)*

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Not sure if this is beer, or a liquid base for white beans and corn bread.

 

[unionrdr]

I forgot to add half a Whirlfloc tablet 10 minutes left in the boil. Don't want all that starch haze. I wonder how much of the bean's flavor will come through after being mashed, boiled & fermented?

 

[dude_brewery]

This is a really interested/involved gruit recipe. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out. Do you have a planned schedule for primary, secondary, conditioning? I know nothing about the typical fermentation schedule for gruits.

 

[unionrdr]

This'll be my first attempt at a gruit. They said it had to go back at least as far as 1392! So it'll be my oldest beer yet. With an OG estimated at 1.076, it'll take at least 3 weeks, if not more, to ferment out. The bag of gruit herbs/spices will be added to primary after 4 days fermenting, as the original recipe suggests. When it hits a stable FG & settles out clear or slightly misty, I'll add the spruce extract to the priming solution & bulk prime it in a bottling bucket. I imagine it'll take some 4 weeks to condition & carbonate. I'll try to get all the ingredients ordered this weekend, as I want to add this one to my second home brewing book I've been working on here & there.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I went to order from wildweeds.com, but there credit card server is not secured. Didn't wanna trust it, so I'll look at local health food stores. Unless any of you have a link to a site with secure payment options?

 

[Melana]

This looks very interesting. Please keep us posted!

 

[unionrdr]

OK, I did some searching & found this site that has paypal express. http://www.herbco.com/ They're out of one of the things I need, or don't carry others. Medic MD said the oil from sweet gale is poisonous, so that's out for now, even though it's used for digestive problems. Gotta find borage someplace else. It has a cucumber-like flavor & the whole plant is edible. I grew it at one time. Germans are said to use the seeds in bread. So it may take a couple days to nail down all the ingredients.

 

[Curtis2010]

Well, after writing more of book two of my home brewing adventures, & discussing dampfbier, kottbusser, etc in a historical context, I mentioned how in the world to search for rare or extinct ales. Short of going to library of congress, etc. So I saved what I'd written up to that point & started a couple searches. After typing in " rare or extinct beer styles" in the search box, I stumbled onto some writings about a nearly extinct German ale called "mumme", pronounced "moom-eh". ...

A British friend of mine, who is also a brewer, used to remodel old homes back in England. He had a gig once to remodel an old farm house. One interior wall had clearly been modified. He tore off the more modern plaster covering to reveal a full walk in hearth with old implements etc still in place. Amongst the artifacts, he found an old gruit based recipe like this one. He brewed it up and said it was pretty good. Unfortunately, I dont think he still has a copy of the recipe.

 

[unionrdr]

That'd be cool. I'm trying to stick as close as I can to the original. But some things are toxic to internal organs, or outright have poisonous oils. Or are subs for more common, but expensive things in medieval times, like herbs & spices. Not a problem now, so I use the real stuff when it comes to herbs & spices. I just ordered the Elderflower, Spearmint leaf, & Blessed Thistle. Gotta scrounge the rest over the weekend. Gotta check my grain stash, as I think I have enough of a couple of them? This is getting interesting, the more I dig into it.

 

[Braumeise]

OK, I'm forced to look up a few of the things in the herb/gruit list separately. I'll list the links I find to individual info in this reply. Then maybe we can find these odd ones? These are more easily available; cardamom seeds & marjoram. I found these on the wildweeds site; elder flowers, sweet gale, pennyroyal, blessed thistle. They must be bought in lots of 4ozs for the most part. A few are more expensive & by the ounce.
Avens Root (Geum Urbanum)- AKA Wood Avens, Herb Bennet, Colewort, St Benedict's Herb. Recipe lists as clove substitute.

a huge part of my fascination for brewing comes from ancient, old, forgotten "brews" and as I have mentioned earlier, a brew kettle reminds me tremendously of a witches cauldron so I feel right at home.

I did not like beer because of the hops and I only started to like beer when I moved to Munich since the Lager beers there have this smooth taste with a slightly hop taste. So I always wanted to try to make an ancient beer that was brewed before the addition of Hops became popular.

You might want to look into pagan, celtic, wiccan stores for ingredients. A lot of the herbs that go into ancient recipes are used in pagan/druid/wiccan traditions. Feel free to pm me if you need something translated from german or if you find a ancient spice that you can't make sense of (usually it only runs by a different name nowadays).

Very curious to see how this will turn out!

Boretsch is use like spinach by italian to make Ravioli and it is a cruical ingredient of the "frankfurter Grüne Soße"

check this page for Myrica / Bayberry tree bark:
http://eclecticnewmoon.com/products/bayberry-tree-bark-cut-2oz-myrica-cerifera

 

[MaxStout]

Union, I think I see a book idea here. You should compile the history and some recipes of these legacy beers.

 

[unionrdr]

@Braumeise-Thanks, I'll definitely keep you in mind! I almost went to the wiccan sites listed in my searches. Maybe I should? Some tried to say, like wildweeds.com ( I think) not to use borage internally. I called BS on that one, as the whole plant can be used & tastes like cucumber. Even the seeds are used in bread in Germany, I read once years ago when I decided to grow it. The place I ordered from was out of borage though. Gotta find some...

 

[unionrdr]

Union, I think I see a book idea here. You should compile the history and some recipes of these legacy beers.

I'm doing just that! That's why book two of " Tippy Tippy Tappy" isn't out yet. Book two is tentatively called, " Tippy Tippy Tappy:Historic Styles & Struggles". That pretty much sums it up. I also include more American Brew-related history in this next one. I also found a button in Apache Open Office that sets up all the pages at once for a print book! Just gotta remember which on I pushed that did it. Headers & all too! I want to start selling all my books in paperback as well. Would be handier, I'm sure...

 

[Braumeise]

@Braumeise-Thanks, I'll definitely keep you in mind! I almost went to the wiccan sites listed in my searches. Maybe I should? Some tried to say, like wildweeds,com ( I think) not to use borage internally. I called BS on that one, as the whole plant can be used & tastes like cucumber. Even the seeds are used in bread in Germany, I read once years ago when I decided to grow it. The place I ordered from was out of borage though. Gotta find some...

I stumbled upon ancient beer recipes while looking for traditional healing, potion or incense ingredients... long before I even thought of getting into homebrewing... so wiccan, shaman, druid and other pagan supplies might be a good source... feel free to pm me... eclectic witch that I am, I might be able to clarify some stuff...

 

[unionrdr]

I'll do that later on today. gotta go shoppin' some more. Retiree payday ya know...

 

[Braumeise]

I'll do that later on today. gotta go shoppin' some more. Retiree payday ya know...

lol! no hurry - I won't vanish just because it's Halloween

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, halloween is busy around here with our buffet we do every year. Gonna look up some more stuff when I get the chance today. You got any wiccan sites & such that're good to deal with?

 

[Braumeise]

plenty but they are all in Germany
I have a great store in the Neighbourhood.
They are called Mystickal Times (in New Hope, PA) I never checked if they do online shopping though.
Also in New Hope/Lahaska also not sure if they do online sales:

River of Life

They have a vast amount of Herbs on Bulk Sale and will measure the exact amount you need.

Those are my two supply stores here so far.

Let me check if I can find phone numbers for you so you can call and see if they have it and can ship it.

 

[unionrdr]

Great, thanks! I definitely need some questions answered as well. Some sites said sweet gale oil is poisonous, but in the next breath say it was used as a digestive remedy? One even said borage should not be taken internally. It tastes like cucumber & the whole plant is edible. The seeds were popular in bread in Germany, as I read years ago when I decided to grow some. So that's another one. And pennyroyal was in the recipe too, but again, toxic somehow??

 

[bonsai4tim]

interesting recipe. Sweet Gale is commonly used in Gruit (i've used it). This looks like it will be very floral/herbal flavor, and minimally bitter.

Good idea on substituting out the pennyroyal. The oils from boiling down penny royal were used as an insecticide, and thought to be an abortifact

 

[dmtaylor]

Medic MD said the oil from sweet gale is poisonous, so that's out for now, even though it's used for digestive problems.

Everything is poisonous in sufficient amounts. I've used sweet gale (a.k.a., myrica gale, bog myrtle) in several gruits in large amounts and never died or got sick from it at all. It's a traditional gruit ingredient. Got mine from wildweeds.com years ago. Guess I risked the credit card thing, and again, didn't die or get trouble from it. But I'm pretty sure they also sell it in some homebrew shops.

 

[unionrdr]

The recipe use 2g of sweet gale. I nearly lol'd when one site said not to take borage internally. Sheez, what BS is propagated on the net these days. I'm also concerned with pennyroyal & some of the others in the original recipe I listed at the beginning of the thread? I'll take all the learned advice I can get with these gruits. No room for error there!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Wow, you've certainly done a lot of research for this, I'm impressed. Using beans in fermentation is interesting and prompted me to search for beans of Germany... I've seen fava and a type of red bean were popular, but not truly sure of the historical placement of these beans. Red beans are higher in starch and protein and a bit lower in fiber than northern and fava. I wonder if the bean protein would add to the head of this strong beer.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I'm having trouble finding out exactly what " Northern European beans" are? I took a guess at great northern? I'll give it another search...

 

[dmtaylor]

I did a bumload of gruit research a few years ago. Sweet gale has a very mild bittering power and mild flavor, and in my experience can be used just like hops, like 28 g in the boil of your typical 5 gallons or whatever. Hasn't killed me yet.

Pennyroyal comes to mind as one with hallucinogenic properties, if memory serves. That one, I'd be okay using a gram or maybe two, but I'd be very careful with it.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's an article on beans in Europe I found. Quite scientific, but interesting with regard to hybridization back then; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20490446
And the wiki on the Phaseolus Vulgaris mentioned in the first link. The common string bean, in this wiki link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus_vulgaris Could this be the Northern European bean mentioned? It & many others came from America back when the Spaniards were exploring over this way? The Northern European Diet also mentions green beans, so this could be the most likely? They also dried & used the beans inside the pods as well. I think this could just be it?
And the wiki on the common bean in general; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean If Phaseolus came to them from America, where did they get the particular species used in 139X? The recipe goes back at least that far. But in the time of Columbus, where this recipe comes to us from, Phaseolus Vulgaris would be the most likely.

 

[unionrdr]

3 of my gruit herbs just came in this afternoon. 1/4lb each...almost makes yer eyes red just lookin' at'em, huh? Seriously though, from left to right is Spearmint, blessed thistle & elderflowers. gotta order some grains next, & get the rest of the spices & gruits.

 

[Braumeise]

Elderflowers are just awesome!

My grandma used to take us collecting the flowers and later the Berries and she made Lemonade and cough sirup and Breakfast Jelly and other really amazing things from it.

Over the last years it became a very popular "hip" drink to mix Elderflowers with Prosecco, Cava or Champagne....

actually the only beer I ever liked from Magic hat Brewery was a Elderberry Wit beer.

I am so excited to see what you will make from this since I really want to get into ancient and long forgotten recipes once I have my perfect Lager brewed!

Good Luck!

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks! These " ancient beers" were mostly ales, as what we know as lager beer hadn't come along just yet. Gruits coming before they knew what they were missing with hops. I supposed that they looked at hops as just another possible gruit?
And pennyroyal having hallucinogenic qualities, I suspect it contains some form of narcotic? It was used in " fest beers" like this mumme' to keep people going during these festivals that would go on for days, according to some medieval writings I've read. *YIKES! Read this about pennyroyal! http://www.drugs.com/npc/pennyroyal.html It's toxic to the liver & neurotoxin as well. No way! I was wondering when they dry the Phaseolus Vulgaris, or string bean, what then would be the name of the dried beans stripped from the now dry pods? Also, in my recipes links under my avatar is a recipe for the rare German dampfbier.
Just ordered the grains, DME's & 2-WY1275's. Midwest has a site-wide 15% off sale code "HIGHKRAUSEN" that saved me $7.90. With shipping @ $10.58,the savings cut my shipping cost to $2.68! Definitely not going to be a cheap beer with all the gruits, etc with an OG estimated @ 1.076 by BS2.

 

[Braumeise]

And pennyroyal having hallucinogenic qualities, I suspect it contains some form of narcotic? .

You find the strangest sources
for us old world witches Pennyroyal is a herb to spice foods, to brew tea or you can buy the seeds in a pharmacy use them for all kinds of digestive issues.

Higher doses may cause an abortion or regulate your menstruation (a herb/medicine for women obviously) that is one of the main reasons why it is a "witch-herb" and still known to those who keep the ancient healing traditions alive.

We do not consider it dangerous or narcotic or no more "narcotic" than common spearmint.

Instead of harming the liver it is said to lower Cholesterol and support the liver.

here is a link in english that is close to what german official pharmacy (!) sites state.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/480.html

As far as I know and I only know it in relation to the revival of Gose, before Hildegard von Bingen (ancient german herb healing nun and quite famous) discovered the antimicrobial effect of hops, hops where not used to bitter beer. In fact Hops were not allowed in Beer-Brewing and brewers were punished for using them (until aprox. 1100). Hops also kill the lacto-microbial organisms you need for the Gose. Although there was something called Gruit-rights which allowed the Dukes and the church to have the monopoly on trade and usage of Gruit. Using hops to bitter the beer and to make it last longer was a way to surpass the strict Monopoly and therefor Hops, usage of Hops and hoped beer was banned by many Dukes and the church.

btw. use of sugar in brewing is still not allowed in Germany (now you know why one of my first questions was, if I really have to use priming sugar or if I may use the unfermented wort from that brew to carbonate my beer)

If I ever get my perfect Lager right, this will be my next project: revive the "healing women herb and spice knowledge of beer bittering)

You will probably predict that I will kill myself if I put all the stuff into my beer that was used in ancient recipes