Another nearly extinct beer worthy of note

[unionrdr]

Your link backs up what I found in the one I posted. http://www.drugs.com/npc/pennyroyal.html The stuff, depending on how it's used & how much, is a liver & neurotoxin. I now suspect this is what gives it the hallucinogenic qualities? Other herbs & plants were cheaper subs for spices & such, besides particular medicinal effects. Looking at the original recipe I posted, I've been working on adding the herbs that're safe to use internally, & the spices some taste like. I grew Borage at one point, & the whole plant is edible, so that one site that said to use it externally only is wrong. The fresh version at any rate. It tastes like cucumber. Germans love the seeds in bread I've read. I ordered the grains for my version yesterday. Speaking of my version, here's the recipe I have so far;
**********Mel's Mumme'**********************************************
*Six gallon recipe volume, pb/pm biab*
The mash****
1lb- Shelled green string beans (northern European beans?)
11.2ozs- Crystal 10L
1lb- Malted oats
1lb, 11.2ozs- Pale wheat malt, Weyermann
3lbs, 8 ozs- Pale malt, Weyermann
4ozs- Chocolate malt, Crisp
*Beans should be simmered about 20 minutes before adding to the mash.
*************************************************************
3lbs- Plain Bavarian wheat DME
3lbs- plain light DME, Breiss
2 packets- Thames Valley Ale yeast, WY1275
**After four days in primary, either rack to secondary, or add sanitized herbs in sanitized bag in primary 7 days;
2 ozs- Elder flowers (all herbs dried)
2g- Sweet Gale
4g- Cardamom
7g- Black Tea
7g- Borage
7g- Cloves
7g- Marjoram
7g- Spearmint
7g- Thyme
15g- Blessed Thistle
************************
To priming solution, add 2ozs Spruce extract. I thought this'd be easier than using spruce branches as a wort filter? I haven't made up my mind on Vco2 yet. The original recipe doesn't give priming sugar amount?
Mash so far will be 7.15lbs in 2.25 gallons of water @ 1.25 quarts per pound of grist, including the beans. Temp I think I'll set at 155F for the 2 hours listed in the original. Batch sparge 10 minutes @ 168F in 2 gallons water. Boil wort 1 hour, as usual. If using 2ozs spruce tips, add them @ 10 minutes left in the boil. Otherwise, 2ozs spruce extract in priming solution. Chill wort down to 75F, strain into clean/sanitized fermenter. Top off with chilled water ( I use local spring water through the process) that's well chilled in the fridge a day or two before brew day to 6 gallons. My Cooper's Micro Brew FV will be great for this. Ferment 4 days, then either rack to secondary, or add to primary, all the herbs listed in clean, sanitized bag. I'm going to sanitize a glass shot glass for weight this time. Keeping the bag under the surface of the beer should help prevent infections this time? Leave to ferment at least 7 days, or until secondary fermentation is done.
*****The Numbers*****************
Beersmith 2.2 still doesn't account for bittering with herbs, so that quantity is unknown.
Based on British Strong Ale style in BS2
Est OG- 1.076
Est FG- 1.018
Color- 18.1 SRM
Est ABV- 7.8%
BS2 gives Vco2 level of 2.3...

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I ordered the grains, DME's & yeast packets on 11/7, but they e-mailed me & said the yeast wouldn't come in until yesterday sometime. I guess it did, because it looks to have shipped finally. Supposed to get here between today & Monday. I have to by/find some of the spices & plants yet. So just collecting/researching the rest will be a week or two yet. Just thought y'all should know...

 

[unionrdr]

Dang. I thought I found another ingredient at the store yesterday. Got coriander seed instead of cardamom. Oops. Gotta go out with a list next time! I have nearly everything needed to brew it. I wanna get it in the fermenter before Christmas. My grain/ dry brewing goods dunage is nearly full now! Those tall, square organic herb bottles are worth saving! I'll get to posting the rest of the gruit stuff soon!

 

[IslandLizard]

Dang. I thought I found another ingredient at the store yesterday. Got coriander seed instead of cardamom. Oops. Gotta go out with a list next time! I have nearly everything needed to brew it. i wanna get it in the fermenter before Christmas. My grain/ dry brewing goods dunage is nearly full now! Those tall, square organic herb bottles are worth saving! I'll get to posting the rest of the gruit stuff soon!

Look for an Indian (spice) store. They'll have cardamom. A little goes a long way. The little green pods are the best, then whole seeds. Don't bother with the powder.

 

[unionrdr]

I was thinking whole seeds for the cardamom? Whole spices & the like for the rest that I don't have yet. Maybe Heinen's, as it's an upscale grocery chain around here? I've seen Indian restaurants way up Lorain Rd near 130th in Cleveland, maybe a shop near there, or? With the borage & all the other odd plants, I got dried 4oz bags. Geez, 4ozs is a lot for those, as in the pics i posted a while ago. This is gonna open up a whole new aspect of brewing for me.

 

[IslandLizard]

Let me clarify, cardamom in the pods remains the freshest. They also sell small packages of just the seeds (taken out of the pods), but they'll lose flavor and aroma much quicker over time. The Indian spice stores typically sell more of it and have faster turnover, but it could still be a year old, easily.

The jars in the grocery stores are all old and stale, regardless of brand and "expiration date." More to the point, they expired long before they were even shipped.

If you boil the cardamom for say an hour, like in an Indian stew, you could leave them in the pods. Then at the end you could fish them out and crush them (in a mortar or with a bottle) before adding them back to release the top notes. But you'll retain more of the delicate aroma and flavor when you add them at the very end. For that, crush them coarsely (or even finely) right before adding them, after flameout when the wort has cooled to around 190F. Just let steep for 10-15 minutes, then chill to pitching temps.

Instead, or in addition, you could also add the cardamon to your secondary, or primary after most fermentation is done. Less aroma will be stripped out that way. As with most spices and herbs they change character depending on how they are treated and used.

Again, that spice, when fresh, is assertive, so go easy on it. You can always add more if need be.

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks for the info. So cardamom pods being better, I guess I'll look for those instead. And the recipe adds the gruits to primary 4 days after fermentation starts.

 

[dmtaylor]

Cardamom is great stuff, I love it. I use the little green seeds, crushed, in my gruit. It gives a sort of A1 steak sauce kind of flavor. That's how my father described my first gruit, actually... said "this tastes like A1 and pickle juice!". He was right. And I loved it. Love the gruit ales.

 

[unionrdr]

It'll be interesting to see how it reacts/blends with all the other herbs, plants & spices! Being my first gruit, this should prove interesting, after all the research I did to make a safe, enjoyable ale.

 

[unionrdr]

I just posted part one of some videos I'll be doing covering this beer. In this one, I discuss the recipe & go over the ingredients. I also list the recipe in the video...

 

[unionrdr]

I'll be doing part 2 when I get the rest of the gruit herbs, most likely. Then on to trying to film the brew day, etc...with an SD card that only holds some 8:30 of video & stereo sound files. I may even do a video on what I found out in my research on this gruit ale?

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I finally got the remaining ingredients located & ordered! Here's part two of the video series on this one;

 

[unionrdr]

Most of the remaining gruit herbs came in while I was out yesterday. Still waiting on the spruce essence & sweet gale.

Might be finally brewing this one next weekend.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been thinking about the spruce essence. The original recipe uses 2ozs of fir branches in the last 10 minutes of the boil. I'm trying to make up my mind how much essence to use in the priming solution to get the same effect as 2ozs of branches/tips in the boil?

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been thinking about the spruce essence. The original recipe uses 2ozs of fir branches in the last 10 minutes of the boil. I'm trying to make up my mind how much essence to use in the priming solution to get the same effect as 2ozs of branches/tips in the boil?

My advice with gruit ales is always to start with less than you think you should. I figure 1 teaspoon is probably about right for 6 gallons. Therefore start with 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon and if not able to taste it at all then add another 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon. Mix and repeat as necessary. I would certainly not use any more than 2 teaspoons which is probably the point of being too much.

 

[unionrdr]

The real question is, how much " essence" is extracted from 2oz of tips/branches? I thought no more than 1oz essence, but it may be less?

 

[IslandLizard]

Most of the remaining gruit herbs came in while I was out yesterday. Still waiting on the spruce essence & sweet gale.

Might be finally brewing this one next weekend.

That's a lot of great spices and herbs!
I hope you like cooking...

Marjoram is by far my favorite cooking herb, great in soups and chicken, followed by rosemary. I also use fresh cilantro a lot, $.99 for a large bunch, can't beat it. Dried cilantro is nothing like the fresh kind, but can be used for tea nicely. Same for mint or pretty much any herb.

Anise (aniseed) is great in a mug of hot milk with some sugar during the cold winter months. Reminds me of ice skating on the canals in Amsterdam.

Some people like Cardamom in their coffee or tea. It's reminiscent of cinnamon but much more perfumy and less earthy.

 

[dmtaylor]

The real question is, how much " essence" is extracted from 2oz of tips/branches? I thought no more than 1oz essence, but it may be less?

Much less. Plants are comprised of about 80% water. Then there is the portion of cellulose that has no flavor at all. You are searching for the oily parts. That is probably less than 5%. So by weight, it could be around 0.1 oz for your recipe, but that is a total swag. A whole oz would be way way too much.

 

[unionrdr]

I am beginning to think you're right about that, DM. one or two tenths tops is starting to sound about right. that old recipe does seem to seek a balance between the 13 different herbs, spices, etc. And wait till I get the last of the gruits in. I'm going to do a short video showing when to use what pretty soon. I'm hoping to brew it this weekend. And We do enjoy cooking, so that's ok. got a small jar of coriander by mistake too.
By the way, should the cardamom, anise seed be crushed for greatest effect? Seems like they should be?

 

[dmtaylor]

By the way, should the cardamom, anise seed be crushed for greatest effect? Seems like they should be?

Definitely. Not powder but just crack them well (use a kitchen mallet or the back of a heavy pot).

 

[unionrdr]

Good to know, thanks. gotta finish cleanin' up in the brewery to be ready for a weekend that's supposed to be in the teens. Gotta tweak the BC grain mill one more time too. Ever since I cleaned it, it won't hold tolerance. Since most of the plants/herbs/spices go in primary on the 4th day of fermentation, I'm thinking of putting them in a 2 gallon nylon bag with a heavy shot glass to sink'em...

 

[unionrdr]

Since next week is retiree payday, I'll finally get this brew started! I never got the spruce extract, but I don't need that one until bottling day. so I decided to just move forward, since I've got quite a pile of bags of grain, herbs, spices, dried plants, etc ready to go. The first is on a Friday, so even better yet! And since my second home brewing book is more about American beer & brewing history & future, I'll be going with my more American brews that need tweaking/finalizing. But this one will be included, as it does represent as well the spirit of ales brewed in America in the earliest days. That time when they didn't have grains to brew with & used whatever they could scrounge up. Definitely gruits of a sort. So this one needs to get done, & so it shall. I have not forgotten..

 

[unionrdr]

A lot of things have happened since my last post, like the wife replacing my fubared computer with a new one! Some files were lost, like this one & the Hybrid lager V4 recipes when the old hard drive surrendered to the click of death. So I gotta start anew with these two. Since it's a PM/PB BIAB beer, I moved it to the BIAB forum below. Look for updates that'll start Saturday with the brew in that forum's posting...

 

[unionrdr]

Good thing I found this thread! New computer's built-in spell checker did some weird things. HP support tried to restore to 7/1, but it failed
& I spent the whole night redoing computer. Ale is about done fermenting, so I'll be checking it any day now. The 1/4oz spruce essence will go in the priming solution.

 

[unionrdr]

Some said it looks complicated. Truthfully, the hardest part was all the research since the start of this year or so. Some of those medicinal plants originally used were/are of questionable safety/value. Mostly, they were substitutes for the more expensive herbs then controlled by the church. You had to buy the herbs, etc. from them. So I used the herbs, etc. that they were subs for instead. Boiled anise seed in 1/2 gallon of spring water for a total of 30 minutes. With 15 minutes left, I added remaining gruits. covered & cooled on day four of fermentation, per recipe. Poured through a 2 1/2 gallon nylon bag into primary, then tied it off with a heavy shot glass for weight to sink it in primary, which started at 5.5 gallons, the 1/2 gallon of gruits/tea making it 6 USG, or 23.016L.
That recipe page is dated to 1695, by the way. I have a couple more of those pages I found for colonial porter, a Wisconsin wheat & a Scot's heather ale.
Still in all, it's been a fun & educational ride this year with researching, finding the ingredients, & finally brewing it. Today, the airlock looks like it's finally done fermenting. With the OG about 1.077 with the gruits added, it looks like it'll be a brown ale, as foretold in research. It is a strong ale, said to resemble a barleywine. But that's where I think similarities end. The strong ale category in BS 2.2.13 (Beta version) seems to fit it best on the bar chart on the recipe design page. I've also written one for the German heavier version brewed when hops had just came into their earliest use. Historians are agreeing that this was most likely the first beer brewed with the then " new" hops! In Germany anyway. But some of the gruits had still seemed to be added, so I compromised. I bittered the beer with hops, wrather than blesses thistle typically used to bitter gruit ales. Then added the remaining gruits, & upped the crystal 10L to 2lbs to add the sweetness it had. The beer was said to be, " sweet, dark & strong as six horses, carriage & all"!
I can tell you this at this point,...1TSP of the tea I made to sanitize the gruits & bring out their flavor, I got a little body & head buzz from them! :rockin:

 

[unionrdr]

For anyone following this thread, I took a first FG sample a little bit ago & got FG 1.024 against an OG of 1.077. Tastes like funeral or minced meat pie!? Amber/copper color, slightly misty with particles in it yet. Aroma is the same as flavor. It seems the anise seed & whole cloves are dominant? Also a little sweet...naturally so, as the pies wood be. Definitely a good fall/winter holiday ale now @ 7.6% by Cooper's formula. I'll be adding 1/4oz spruce Essence to the priming solution to replace the 2ozs spruce tips that were to be boiled with the gruits.

 

[unionrdr]

Took 2nd FG @ 2:58, got .002 points lower @ FG 1.022. Still a bit cloudy, still smells & tastes like funeral/mincemeat pie. Only now a tad boozy/brandied flavor in there...just a little. Oh yeah...:rockin:

 

[Psylocide]

7.2% by real calculations @ 1.022.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, of the 8 or so calculation formulas I've run across, Cooper's is the highest. But still falls within BS2's numbers. A strong ale regardless. Interesting how the aroma & flavor turned out from all the herbs, spices & plants used?...

 

[unionrdr]

The new window A/C unit I installed a couple days ago is finally getting the primary temp down. down to about 21C, or 69.8F now. Hopefully, it'll start settling out clear & stable. FG was 1.022 last I checked.

 

[unionrdr]

Just took another FG sample about 1/2 hour ago. Still @ FG 1.022. With A/C running at between 65-69F, sample was less turbid, but still very misty. Aroma was still like a bright sort of mince pie, tasted the same. That bright slightly sweet/tart brightness on the back. Booziness gone as well. If it's the same Saturday morning, in the bottles it goes before infection sets in from the suck-backs. Although, it has been a lot cooler in here than before, & the A/c unit has a screen filter on it like a drier.

 

[unionrdr]

Finished bottling the Mumme a half hour ago. Got only 59-12oz bottles out of 6 gallons, due to 2L of trub loss. Carbonated to 2.3Vco2. I also put 1/4oz of spruce essence in the priming solution to account for 2ozs of tips that were to go in the boil. Now we wait...

 

[TheHairyHop]

well this has been an adventure. I'm curious on those final tasting notes.

 

[unionrdr]

That'll be at least another month. a few weeks minimum to see if it carbonates in the normal time frame. Then a week in the fridge. I'm going to age most of it for fall & holidays. Should go great with Christmas baking. In any case, I'll do a tasting video in a month. And yes, since I started researching this ale a year ago, it has indeed been one hell of a long journey. Thanks for noticing & commenting. I'd like to send out a couple bottles for folks to try & give opinions.

 

[bigrsmith]

Very excited to see how it turns out when you crack the first one. For sure keep us posted. The adventure has me wanting to try something finding and brewing something like this except I am no where ready for that trip. I am only on my 3rd extract kit.

 

[unionrdr]

I'll definitely keep y'all posted on this one. I'm understandably curious myself as to how the final product will be? Gotta get going on version 4.2 of my hybrid lager next. Trying for that 1950-1965 flavor profile...

 

[premington]

Ummm... Super interesting thread! I read the entire thing, got to the end, and see no report on how the gruit turned out. What a tease!

Is there a review of how this tasted?