Another Infection Thread -- More Gushing

[ngunsch]

I know I know I know, but really, just hear me out. I would really appreciate another perspective on this, or confirmation that I'm not missing anything. Background:

I brew extract. Various styles. Various yeasts. Been doing 5-gallon batches for going on two years now. I boil outside on a propane burner. Cool outside with copper immersion chiller.

Over the past two years, I've had three batches get the dreaded gusher bugs: a kolsch (last summer), wee heavy (this winter), and an English brown (now). I have brewed many successful batches both before and in between these beers. I *think* my sanitation procedures have improved over time: after the kolsch gushers, I made it a point to got a little crazy with the bottle sanitation. Yet it's happened again.

These are definitely infections. I take gravity readings before bottling, I am very careful with the priming sugar amount, and I don't open bottles too early. Also, the caps of some of the bottles pop out like an outy belly button. And even the ones that don't are WAY overcarbed and thin and bitter.

Now here's the odd thing: I bottled the currently gushing English brown and a Saison on the same day, with the same equipment. The saison is fine, the brown is not. I don't remember which one I bottled first. Also, the brown tasted great at bottling. So here are my questions:

1. Could these bugs be getting into the wort/beer pre-bottle? I find this hard to believe, since the gravities are stable and there's no airlock activity prior to bottling. I would think that if they were in the carboy, they'd be eating away and I'd be able to tell with gravity readings and taste.

2. Related to the above, what about sanitation of the wort chiller? I stick it in the boil for about 5 or 10 minutes, but maybe that's not enough. I mean, I also clean it off, but it's not like I soak it in PBW and use Star San on it. Could this be the problem?

3. Also related to pre-bottle opportunities, what about using top-off water? I almost always do.

4. I believe I am really meticulous with all my bottling equipment, so I would be surprised if it's in there. But to me, all signs point to that. Thoughts?

I just bottled another kolsch this past Saturday, after going REALLY crazy with all my bottles and equipment. If that ends up gushing, I'm going to be VERY disappointed, as it tasted great at bottling (like they all do).

I really need to pin down my problem. So please lend me hand, fellow brewers, and let me know what you think.

Cheers!

 

[TheCanisDirus]

Easy way to tell... what do they taste like? You'll always taste an infection.

 

[beergolf]

Now here's the odd thing: I bottled the currently gushing English brown and a Saison on the same day, with the same equipment. The saison is fine, the brown is not. I don't remember which one I bottled first. Also, the brown tasted great at bottling. So here are my questions:

This could be the case for this one. If you bottled the saison first and did not really sanitize your bottling equipment, some saison yeast could get in the brown. Saison yeasts are super attenuative and could ferment the brown down farther than the yeast that was used. So that could explain this batch.

The other batches could be infections.

One thing to look at is the spigot on your bottling bucket. Are you sure it is very clean? and sanitized.

What kind of top off water do you use?

 

[TheCanisDirus]

This could be the case for this one. If you bottled the saison first and did not really sanitize your bottling equipment, some saison yeast could get in the brown. Saison yeasts are super attenuative and could ferment the brown down farther than the yeast that was used. So that could explain this batch.

Very good point! And if you used 3711... that **** will eat through the bottles you put it in lol.

 

[sundaypapers]

Is it possible you are over carbing your bottles? I did that with an ESB ad had a similar experience, gushing continuously, thin and had extreme carbonic bite. I degassed the rest of the batch carefully and tried them again later as it was fine.
Also, do you cover your bottling bucket during the bottling process? This could explain why some are infected and some aren't.


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[Darwin18]

4. I believe I am really meticulous with all my bottling equipment, so I would be surprised if it's in there. But to me, all signs point to that. Thoughts?

That's what it looks to me. Are all the bottles from a batch gushing or just some? How exactly are you cleaning and sanitizing your bottles?

 

[ngunsch]

This could be the case for this one. If you bottled the saison first and did not really sanitize your bottling equipment, some saison yeast could get in the brown. Saison yeasts are super attenuative and could ferment the brown down farther than the yeast that was used. So that could explain this batch.

The other batches could be infections.

One thing to look at is the spigot on your bottling bucket. Are you sure it is very clean? and sanitized.

What kind of top off water do you use?

The possible saison cross-contamination did not occur to me either. Though I can't recall which I bottled first, this *could* be something. However, I thought I was pretty thorough with my cleaning between batches. Definitely food for thought, though.

As for the spigot and wand, I am also pretty darn meticulous in cleaning and sanitizing them. I soak in PBW for a bit, rinse well, and then soak in Star San right up until I use (no rinsing, of course). Now that doesn't mean something didn't stick around, but it seems unlikely.

Re: top off water, I take it straight from the tap. Though just let me say that I WON'T be doing this anymore. But that does lead me to ask about thoughts on pre-bottling infections? I mean, if the bug was already in the carboy, wouldn't I have tasted it at bottling? The brown was in the carboy for 5 weeks.

 

[ngunsch]

Is it possible you are over carbing your bottles? I did that with an ESB ad had a similar experience, gushing continuously, thin and had extreme carbonic bite. I degassed the rest of the batch carefully and tried them again later as it was fine.
Also, do you cover your bottling bucket during the bottling process? This could explain why some are infected and some aren't.


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Overcarbing also occurred to me, and they do taste better after they've degassed for a bit, but the brown is still way too thin -- thinner and more bitter than it was when I sampled one after a week in the bottle. It's been four weeks now and they are drinkable, but I fear not for long. I'm very close to dumping them. But again, I weigh my priming sugar and, for the brown, I was even going light on the sugar. Maybe I don't boil the priming solution long enough? I prob only boiled it for 5 minutes. Maybe something is surviving that?

As for covering the bottling bucket, I don't.

 

[ngunsch]

That's what it looks to me. Are all the bottles from a batch gushing or just some? How exactly are you cleaning and sanitizing your bottles?

Well, last summer's kolsch, only about half the bottles gushed. Though it could be I was drinking them infected and just didn't notice until the temp shot up and the bacteria got super happy and pooped my caps out.

All the wee heavies have gushed to various degrees. They were tolerable early on, but they are getting undrinkable now.

For the current brown, it's fairly consistent, though I just started drinking them. Every one has been slightly gushy (technical term). And they all definitely taste off (and worse than the one I drank after only a week in the bottle).

My cleaning/sanitizing procedure: bottles: (what I WAS doing): fill each partially with PBW, let soak for 30 minutes or so, shake each, dump, and then run each through jet bottle washer to rinse. Then I fill each partially with Star San solution, shake, let sit for 30 minutes or so, and then I dump out each one immediately prior to filling (on the foam).

For the equipment, after my previous bottling day, I always rinse everything out thoroughly and make sure to take apart and rinse out the spigot. It all dries on a shelf in my basement (probably not the cleanest of areas, I'll grant it). On bottling day, I will fill the bucket with PBW, throw in the wand and auto siphon and tubing, and let it all sit for 20 minutes or so, and then use that to fill my bottles (mentioned above). Then I'll rinse thoroughly and refill with star san, and then fill the emptied and rinsed bottles with star san.

Faults, problems with this procedure?

 

[sundaypapers]

I'd run a test and put a couple bottles in the fridge for a week. Then slowly pry open the cap just a bit to let the gas escape. Recap it, I use the same caps, then put it back in the fridge for day or so and let it settle, repeat a few times and see if that helps. Do you stir the solution in or rack on top of the solution? I found I had much more even carbonation in the batch when I stirred it a few times with a sanitized spoon.
The carbonic bite came off as a harsh bitterness, so that could be it. How long ago did you bottle this? If it's an infection it'll only get more like this flavor doing what I did, though less carbonated. I've inly had one infection before and I knew it at bottling time and just rolled the dice on it, so I can't speak from one developing after the bottling stage. Don't dump them yet.


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[ngunsch]

I'd run a test and put a couple bottles in the fridge for a week. Then slowly pry open the cap just a bit to let the gas escape. Recap it, I use the same caps, then put it back in the fridge for day or so and let it settle, repeat a few times and see if that helps. Do you stir the solution in or rack on top of the solution? I found I had much more even carbonation in the batch when I stirred it a few times with a sanitized spoon.
The carbonic bite came off as a harsh bitterness, so that could be it. How long ago did you bottle this? If it's an infection it'll only get more like this flavor doing what I did, though less carbonated. I've inly had one infection before and I knew it at bottling time and just rolled the dice on it, so I can't speak from one developing after the bottling stage. Don't dump them yet.


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I'll give it a shot. I just threw a couple bottles in the fridge yesterday, so I'll wait a week and run through this.

I usually gently stir with a sanitized spoon.

I bottled it four weeks ago.

 

[sundaypapers]

Cool. I've never had a bottle infection, and your sanitation process is way more thorough than mine is. Hope it works out.


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[ngunsch]

Thanks. Yeah, me too. This is just about to start really bumming me out if I can't get to the bottom of this.

Anyone have any other thoughts about pre-bottling contamination from either the top off water, priming solution, or immersion wort chiller? Also, I forgot to mention that I DID find some gunk in the kettle spigot. But again, this is obviously pre-bottle, and everything tasted good at bottling. Any more thoughts -- or critique of my sanitation procedures -- are most welcome.

 

[beergolf]

Also, I forgot to mention that I DID find some gunk in the kettle spigot. But again, this is obviously pre-bottle, and everything tasted good at bottling.

That could be it. It could taste fine at bottling because an infection can take a while to take hold.

 

[Darwin18]

Thanks. Yeah, me too. This is just about to start really bumming me out if I can't get to the bottom of this.

Anyone have any other thoughts about pre-bottling contamination from either the top off water, priming solution, or immersion wort chiller? Also, I forgot to mention that I DID find some gunk in the kettle spigot. But again, this is obviously pre-bottle, and everything tasted good at bottling. Any more thoughts -- or critique of my sanitation procedures -- are most welcome.

I doubt very much that it's your immersion chiller. You're putting that into the boil with 10 - 15 minutes left correct?

I also doubt that any "gunk" in your kettle is contributing to your infections since you're boiling any fluids, including the "gunk".

Your sanitation process seems okay. Have you switched out and replaced any tubing that comes into contact with your beer post-boil? How well are you cleaning your racking cane?

 

[ngunsch]

I doubt very much that it's your immersion chiller. You're putting that into the boil with 10 - 15 minutes left correct?

More like 5-10 minutes. But I'll make sure to leave it in there 10-15 from now on.

Your sanitation process seems okay. Have you switched out and replaced any tubing that comes into contact with your beer post-boil? How well are you cleaning your racking cane?

Yeah, I always thought so, too. But apparently not. After I noticed the wee heavy going south, I replaced all my tubing. My next beer turned out great. And again, the saison I bottled on the same day as the brown is also great. Oh, and I dissemble and thoroughly clean, soak, rinse, and sanitize my auto siphon and racking cane each time, so I'd be very surprised if something was setting up camp in there.

And another thing: I just remembered that every now and then the seal from my hose to the chiller isn't always the best, and sometimes there's some spray. Whenever this happens, I check to make sure that nothing is getting in the wort, but perhaps some still is, and maybe this is also a problem. Either way, I'm getting new hoses and connections before my next batch.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. Seems to me that this might be one of those annoying problems that is never pinpointed. However, I've decided to go surgical on the cleaning and sanitizing of every single piece of equipment that touches anything dealing with my beer -- pre-boil, post-boil, whatever. Hopefully, that should take care of whatever it is that is happening to some of my batches.

Thanks again, and cheers!