Anchorage A Deal With The Devil clone ? (Barleywine, 17%, oak, galaxy hops... $100/bottle)

[brewman !]

I'd like to clone Anchorage Brewing's A Deal With The Devil.

It was reviewed in the Dec-Jan 2019 Beer and Brewing. Page 89. It received a score of 100/100.

======================================================================
"What the brewer says: Barleywine brewed with Galaxy hop, a starting gravity of 37 Plato, double oak, aged 10 months in Cognac barrels, 5 months in Woodford Reserve double oak barrels."

"What our panel thought:

Aroma Vanilla, Toffee, carmel, semi sweet chocolate, leather and tabacco. Spicy phenols, Candied orange peel and fig. Burnt maple syrup and maybe just a bit of wine grape.

Flavor: Carmel, toffee, vanilla, maple, bittersweet chocolate. Sweet, but balanced. Boozy and warming, but not harsh. Fairly viscous for style, full bodied. Pleasant oak notes of bourbon, sherry, port. Finishes sweet, but not cloying.

Overall: A wonderfully complex, full-bodied, sweet, big and delicious barley wine. Well balanced and beautifully boozy. An exquisite beer that begs to be savored.
========================================================================

Apparently there is a clone recipe in Brew Your Own, January 2018. I let my subscription lapse, so I don't have it. https://byo.com/recipe/anchorage-brewing-co-s-deal-devil-clone/

Brewer's Friend has the recipe here: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homeb...rage-brewing-co-s-a-deal-with-the-devil-clone

The OG doesn't scare me. I'll do it as a reiterative mash.

The recipe lists the mash temp as 64C, which is 147.2F. Really low, so it is very fermentable ? Also calls for White Labs Super High Gravity Ale Yeast WLP099. I assume this would need a big starter, plus oxygen to finish ? 18.3 to 20.6C is room temperature, basically.

How would one age it ? Without a whiskey barrel ?

 

[bracconiere]

I'd age it on some Jack Daniels smoking chips....

 

[IslandLizard]

Age it in a keg.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The recipe lists the mash temp as 64C, which is 147.2F. Really low, so it is very fermentable ?

Comfort Zone recently linked to a presentation which may be useful on this front - but yes you want it fermentable.

 

[brewman !]

I want to brew this.

I've got 2 3 gallon Better Bottles and a bunch of swing top bottles ready. I need to get my stir plate operational and pick up a flask so I can build up a starter. And I need to figure out an aeration/oxygen system.

I'm looking for suggestions on how to do the split batches. What should I run in each ?

 

[brewman !]

Age it in a keg.

I have corny kegs. I was going to split the batch in half.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have corny kegs. I was going to split the batch in half.

Aging in (corny) kegs can be better than a wooden barrel, especially with smaller batches. Also gives you more control, while you can purge the headspace if you have to open open it. I run CO2 through the gas in when removing the lid to add stuff, like liquor soaked chips or cubes, vanilla bean, chocolate nibs, etc. That way none or very little air can get inside. A few purges afterward reduces that amount again.

Are you going to treat each split differently?

 

[brewman !]

Are you going to treat each split differently?

Can we come up with 2 fermentations/agings to test ?

 

[couchsending]

I can’t believe that it’s only 40-something IBUs, that makes no sense. And why use Galaxy in a beer that’ll age for 9 months. That too makes no sense.

 

[brewman !]

I can’t believe that it’s only 40-something IBUs, that makes no sense. And why use Galaxy in a beer that’ll age for 9 months. That too makes no sense.

I've never tasted it. But judging from the notes, I want to brew it.

I can't comment on the IBUs. But the brewer claims to use Galaxy hops. I wonder what the BYO article says ?

I should be ready to brew it in a few weeks. Would the tasting notes at Beer Advocate or Rate Beer help us sort it out ? Give me some direction and I'll take a stab at brewing it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'd like to brew it too. And wouldn't want to waste Galaxy on it either.

Maybe some good soul will post the BYO recipe...

P.S. I just saw it too, the BF version does mention BYO as the source. How different can it be?

 

[brewman !]

The Brewer's Friend page references the BYO recipe. I want the backgound story.

What I want to know is where all thos flavors come from. Some from the barrel. But what about the rest. The yeast ? Did they ferment at higher temps to enhance ester production ?

 

[brewman !]

Wlp099 is very interesting yeast. Almost a wine flavor. So where are the other flavors coming from ? I'm guessing they blend in another beer.

I need the back story from the BYO article.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

 

[HTH1975]

How would you account for water losses via the cask (evaporation) ????

 

[madscientist451]

Looks like a great project.
Commercial brewers are not permitted by law to add spirits to beer to get flavor.
So in this case cognac and bourbon barrels are used.
Homebrewers have an advantage since you can add whatever you want to and dial in the exact flavor you are looking for.
I's use Fench oak spirals or staves + add cognac to mimic the cognac flavor, American barrel chips plus Woodford reserve for the bourbon flavor. How much spirits to add would be crap shoot, you could always add a little more, but you can't get it out once its in.
I suppose the term "double oak" in the description means they added oak spirals or staves to the barrel?

 

[TNTgill]

Here are screenshots of the recipe from BYO. Hope this helps.

 

[brewman !]

TNTGill: thanks ! Somehow I was expecting more from BYO. Was there an accompanying article on barrel aging or barley wines ?

I still don't see where the flavor in the beer is coming from if one uses the WL099 yeast. I wonder if this beer is double fermented or if it is a blend of 2 beers. Maybe it starts with a yeast that produces fruity esters and is then finished with WL099 ?

Here is a high alcohol tolerant yeast produces "darker fruit aromas and flavors of raisin, date and fig" at low temperatures.

http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/product-details/abbaye-belgian-ale-yeast/

What if one started the fermentation with a yeast like that and then finished it with WL099 ?

 

[IslandLizard]

I still don't see where the flavor in the beer is coming from if one uses the WL099 yeast. I wonder if this beer is double fermented or if it is a blend of 2 beers. Maybe it starts with a yeast that produces fruity esters and is then finished with WL099 ?

Here is a high alcohol tolerant yeast produces "darker fruit aromas and flavors of raisin, date and fig" at low temperatures.

http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/product-details/abbaye-belgian-ale-yeast/

What if one started the fermentation with a yeast like that and then finished it with WL099 ?

That's one of the big peeves I have with these (popular) magazines cutting corners everywhere to make it easy and approachable to everyone, including the (novice) homebrewers. Oh yeah, you can whip this up like so...

They usually aren't (very) true to the breweries' recipes at all, if they even have it. A list of ingredients means nothing or not much. Process, process, process... that's what makes one beer good and another mediocre!

For example, they mention Anchorage boils for 5 hours! How did that not make into their recipe instructions? That makes all the difference adding a lot of flavor to the wort due to caramelization and maillard reactions.

Are they perhaps feeding the fermentation? I would with a big beer like that. Where are the nutrients?
Galaxy, really?

Adding a Belgian yeast early, will result in Belgian flavors and notes. Low ferm temps will restrain those somewhat. Then let WLP099 finish her up from the halfway point. I doubt breweries do that routinely, but may be worth a try. They may pitch a (secret) yeast blend though...

 

[brewman !]

I was going to do an iterative mash. I wasn't going to boil down for 5 hours. Hmmm... My boil kettle is 11 gallons to the brim.

I want to brew this in a few weeks, for sure within a month. What do I need to get ready ?

How big will my yeast flask(s) need to be ?

 

[brewman !]

If you read the instructions for WL099, it talks about feeding the yeast sugar to reach its high alcohol tolerance. It doesn't sound like you can feed it a really high gravity wort off the get to.

How will that work for this brew ?

 

[IslandLizard]

I was going to do an iterative mash. I wasn't going to boil down for 5 hours. Hmmm... My boil kettle is 11 gallons to the brim.

I want to brew this in a few weeks, for sure within a month. What do I need to get ready ?

How big will my yeast flask(s) need to be ?

Do some gravity and boil calculations.
You can boil down first runnings or iterative runnings for as long as you can stand it, without scorching them. Add runnings from a 2nd or another iterative mash to it as need be, to keep it from getting too thick. Your estimated boil off per hour will determine what volumes to aim for and lauter. As long as you get your gravity points in the kettle, it should all work.

You can add your bittering hops 1.5-2 hrs before your estimated flameout time. 15 or 30 minutes longer or shorter makes little difference in IBUs at that point.

What hops are you eyeing up?

You can make quite a few yeast starters from one single pack before brew day. When a 2 liter starter is done, pour most into a 1/2 gallon jug or growler and cold crash, while you add fresh wort and make another 2 liters. Pour that into a 2nd 1/2 gallon jug and repeat. Pour off most supernatant and combine slurries as you go. Or better yet, do a vitality starter with each 1/2 gallon jug on brew day, and pitch the high krausen vitality starters into the well oxygenated wort. Repeat oxygenation after 12-18 hours, before fermentation starts.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you read the instructions for WL099, it talks about feeding the yeast sugar to reach its high alcohol tolerance. It doesn't sound like you can feed it a really high gravity wort off the get to.

How will that work for this brew ?

Read the process for DFH 120 Minute IPA.

 

[brewman !]

My system boils off about 1 gallon an hour. I can boil forever without scorching. I also have no problem hitting OGs with mashing. I've never done an iterative mash, but I'm dying to try one.

My max boil volume would be 10 gallons and that would be pushing it. I'd rather 9 gallons. I could try to borrow a larger kettle. My system loses about 1/2 gallon in the bottom of the kettle and chiller circuit. I ferment in 6 gallon fermentors. So I need about 6.5 gallons at the end of the boil.

So how long do I need to boil the wort to get some of these flavors ?

I haven't made any decisions about hops or yeast. Are we sure about the 40 IBUs ? Are you thinking a gallon of yeast slurry as a starter ?

 

[brewman !]

DFH 120 Uses 2 yeasts, finishing with WL099, just as I thought.

Building the starter.

Here is another DFH 120 minute clone.

"Fermentation
The week before you brew this, you need to start thinking about your yeast. This is by far the most important step in this beer. You need a metric asston of healthy yeast. Without that, you’ll have hop-flavored cough syrup. This beer uses two strains of yeast: WLP007, then WLP099 gets pitched a few days after the WLP007. Both strains will need massive starters, so plan on stepping both up.

-WLP007 – Plan on growing about 500 billion cells. This requires a 4-5 liter starter on a stir plate.
-WLP099 – Plan on about the same. I did a 4 liter starter."

 

[IslandLizard]

My max boil volume would be 10 gallons and that would be pushing it. I'd rather 9 gallons.

You can always top up as you go. That's what I usually do with my 8 gallon kettle, which doesn't hold enough initial wort for 5.5 gallon batches while leaving an inch of headroom. Or I boil a gallon of 3rd runnings down on the side.

 

[brewman !]

The first strain of yeast is probably what gives it the dark fruit flavors. WL099 "merely" finishes off fermentation.

How, specifically, should this beer be finished after fermentation ? Aging in oak (chips), brandy, cognac ?

I'm willing to do a split batch. I could either try 2 different types of first yeast OR I could try 2 different types of finishing regimes. I know of a couple BJCP judges who would probably be willing to do blind tastings and give me their tasting notes.

Or maybe I should test 2 different types of first yeasts, do taste testing of that, unoaked, and decide how to finish it from there ? I'd actually have 3 different beers to taste - yeast1, yeast2 and a blend of yeast1 and yeast2. From there I could run several different finishing tests.

 

[brewman !]

I have a question... the yeast starters on this beer start to take up a significant volume.

1) What am I going to ferment this in ? 6 gallons of wort into a fermentor + 1 gallon of yeast starter = 7 gallons.

2) When does the flavor of the starter base beer start to affect the character of the main beer ? I guess the malt in ADWTD is plain enough that it is easy enough to match in the starter ?

Edit: apparently the yeast cake is huge too, when all is said and done.

I'm new to all this.

 

[couchsending]

I have a question... the yeast starters on this beer start to take up a significant volume.

1) What am I going to ferment this in ? 6 gallons of wort into a fermentor + 1 gallon of yeast starter = 7 gallons.

2) When does the flavor of the starter base beer start to affect the character of the main beer ? I guess the malt in ADWTD is plain enough that it is easy enough to match in the starter ?

Edit: apparently the yeast cake is huge too, when all is said and done.

I'm new to all this.

Crash the starter the day before and decant it on brew day.

 

[couchsending]

The “spicy phenols” part of the review of this beer is interesting. I’ve never had it and never will as I can’t stand Barley Wines or really many beers over 8% but...

Their house Belgian yeast is (or at least was ) 3522, Belgian Ardennes. It’s pretty darn clean at colder temps and supposed ferments fine even at 58 although I’ve never tried.

Maybe start it with that and then add the attenuating yeast at the end.

 

[IslandLizard]

So how long do I need to boil the wort to get some of these flavors ?

I haven't made any decisions about hops or yeast. Are we sure about the 40 IBUs ? Are you thinking a gallon of yeast slurry as a starter ?

Barleywines, especially the first runnings, are typically boiled for 2 hours or longer. Kettle reactions are part of the style. DFH 120 IPA is like a Barleywine, it's in its own class.

40 IBUs is very low for Barleywines, but that whole recipe rattles, I'd pity the brewers who try to brew it just with those directions.

6 gallons of wort into a fermentor + 1 gallon of yeast starter = 7 gallons.

You'd never pitch all that weak oxidized starter beer into a batch. Cold crash, pour off most of the (spent) starter beer on top, leaving behind the thick yeast slurry.
I previously described a possible process to make large amounts of yeast slurry using only one stir plate and one 2 liter flask. I'd start doing that at least a week before brew day, each new starter round takes at least 24 hours, I prefer 36-48 hrs:

[EDIT]You can make quite a few yeast starters from one single pack before brew day.

When a 2 liter starter is done, pour most into a 1/2 gallon jug or growler and cold crash, while you add fresh starter wort to the leftover to make another 2 liters.
When that's done, pour that into a 2nd 1/2 gallon jug and repeat.

When the cold crashed jug has mostly clear beer on top (called 'supernatant'), pour off most of it, and combine slurries in one jar as you go.

Or better yet, do not combine them, but make a vitality starter with each 1/2 gallon jug/growler on brew day, (just shake up a few times) and pitch the probably now high krausen vitality starters into the well oxygenated wort. Repeat oxygenation after 12-18 hours, before fermentation starts.

 

[IslandLizard]

1) What am I going to ferment this in ? 6 gallons of wort into a fermentor + 1 gallon of yeast starter = 7 gallons

You need good temp control, low, slow, and steady!

But even then, high gravity fermentations can become explosive. 6 gallons of beer plus 2 x 1 pint of yeast slurries in a 6.5 gallon bucket does not leave enough headroom. Split over 2 buckets or use a larger (wine) bucket, they're around 8 gallons, perhaps?

I wonder why the recipe directions don't mention the 2nd yeast or the possible need for feeding.
It's not impossible to ferment a 1.164 wort from the get go, I've had wonderful RISs in that range, but it's surely pushing it, and the risk of it stalling is always looming.

Now if you're going to feed this, you can start out somewhat smaller as you'll be adding more wort (and nutrients) toward the end. But you need to plan for that, it's a different process.
Also, I'd try very hard to prevent oxidation during the feeding phase. Whenever taking samples and adding wort, I'd leave the lid on, and use a 2nd access hole, so you can stream CO2 in while tinkering with the samples and feeding. But that's me.

 

[brewman !]

Maybe mash 8 gallons, split into 2 = 4 gallons per carboy

I can dedicate a fridge to this. But I don't have it set up yet... the BYO article didn't mention this !

But even then, high gravity fermentations can become explosive. 6 gallons of beer plus 2 x 1 pint of yeast slurries in a 6.5 gallon bucket does not leave enough headroom.

Agreed !

Split over 2 buckets or use a larger (wine) bucket, they're around 8 gallons, perhaps?

The wine buckets are around 10 gallons. I hate them because they are so leaky, air wise.

I currently have:

3 x 6 gallon Better Bottles. I dislike them because they flex if you move them and they are hard to clean through the narrow opening. But they work.

2 x 3 gallon Better Bottles. They don't flex as much as the 6 gallon version, but still hard to clean.

2 x 7 gallon Bigmouth fermentors. They flex, but at least you can get inside to clean them.

Several 1/4 barrel (7.75 gallon) Sanke kegs. I'm about to weld a 4" TC ports on them so they can be used as fermentors.

Several 1/2 barrel (15.5 gallon) Sanke kegs. See above.

I could also borrow 5 gallon carboys from friends.

How much does headspace matter when fermenting a big beer like this ?

I wonder why the recipe directions don't mention the 2nd yeast or the possible need for feeding.

If I/we brew this big wort, how do you feed it ? Or do you think that Anchorage Brewing starts with a smaller wort and then feeds it ?

It's not impossible to ferment a 1.164 wort from the get go, I've had wonderful RISs in that range, but it's surely pushing it, and the risk of it stalling is always looming.

I'm here to learn. Tell me more. What yeast did you use ?

Now if you're going to feed this, you can start out somewhat smaller as you'll be adding more wort (and nutrients) toward the end. But you need to plan for that, it's a different process.

Feed it wort ? Brew more every week ? Can wort in a sterile jar ? I have a pressure cooker and I canned wort for starters way back when...

Also, I'd try very hard to prevent oxidation during the feeding phase. Whenever taking samples and adding wort, I'd leave the lid on, and use a 2nd access hole, so you can stream CO2 in while tinkering with the samples and feeding. But that's me.

I thought oxidation wasn't an issue while yeast were actively fermenting ? I thought they would gobble up any excess oxygen that was available ? Isn't that one advantage to bottle conditioning over forced carbination ? Though this beer will need to be force carbinated.

I could easily weld or solder extra ports on the Sanke kegs. Would also help for pushing the final product into a serving keg. But... you can't see what is going on inside.

Sounds like this will take more prep than I was anticipating. Also sounds like this is a great learning opportunity.

 

[skibb]

My thoughts on this beer after drinking quite a bit of it and also brewing 15%+ ABV beers

I've had this beer the last 4 years its come out and I can definitely say it is a BIG beer - the final gravity is immense - I could easily 1.050's (before hitting the barrels). This would yield ~15% beer and additional ABV pickup would happen with barrel aging - I typically see anywhere from 2-3% ABV pickup from bourbon barrel aging depending on how fresh they are.

From what I've read about this beer - it is 100% Maris Otter malt - this is a robust base malt, and can easily give you a wide array of flavors described by the tasters, especially when coupled with long boils/maillard reactions/kettle caramelization (is his system direct fire?)/oak fermentation. Plenty of dark fruit flavors!

I think pitching a massive starter and dosing with extra O2/yeast nutrient the first couple days of fermentation could be all it takes to brew this beer - no step feeding with sugars required. Though, it is definitely possible he is using sugar to bump up the ABV, but it would also likely result in a lower FG (my experience with incremental sugar feedings on a RIS yielded FGs in the 1.030s via technique from: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/BeyondMaltHops.pdf [starting at slide 11]). If the yeast are still growing all added O2 in the beer should be absorbed (I usually see yeast growth on our big beers taper off on day 4 of fermentation).

 

[brewman !]

My thoughts on this beer after drinking quite a bit of it and also brewing 15%+ ABV beers

Was it a good beer ? Was it tasty like the tasting notes said ?

 

[skibb]

Was it a good beer ? Was it tasty like the tasting notes said ?

This beer is phenomenal! It is decadent, complex, and the perfect beer for sharing.

I agree with the tasting notes from the OG for the most part... I have never personally detected any phenolic notes in this beer other than some woodiness that has come with some of the variants.

 

[LayerUp]

I'd like to brew it too. And wouldn't want to waste Galaxy on it either.

Maybe some good soul will post the BYO recipe....

I can look to see if I have it when I get home. I would assume there would be an issue with me posting the entire article to the forums, but what about just the recipe?

 

[brewman !]

This beer is phenomenal! It is decadent, complex, and the perfect beer for sharing.

I agree with the tasting notes from the OG for the most part... I have never personally detected any phenolic notes in this beer other than some woodiness that has come with some of the variants.

Thanks for this.

The recipe that we have states it uses 40 IBUs of Galaxy hops. Does that coincide with how it tasted ?

 

[brewman !]

I can look to see if I have it when I get home. I would assume there would be an issue with me posting the entire article to the forums, but what about just the recipe?

The recipe is posted earlier in the thread. I'd love the crib notes from you on the accompanying article, if there is one.

 

[skibb]

Thanks for this.

The recipe that we have states it uses 40 IBUs of Galaxy hops. Does that coincide with how it tasted ?

I did not get much if any bitterness out of this beer, nor hop character (I would NOT waste Galaxy on this) - the sweetness is more so balanced by the booziness/alcohol and wood tannin.

The issue with getting high IBU in a beer like this is that with an OG of 1.164 your hop utilization is going to be crap. I would use the highest AA hop you have access to and probably aim a little higher than 40 IBU.

I would venture to guess the 40 IBU is calculated and not measured. Is that the target for before barrel aging for a year...or after?

 

[brewman !]

I did not get much if any bitterness out of this beer, nor hop character (I would NOT waste Galaxy on this) - the sweetness is more so balanced by the booziness/alcohol and wood tannin.

Do you have any hop recommendation in place of Galaxy ? 40 IBUs sounds about right ?

The issue with getting high IBU in a beer like this is that with an OG of 1.164 your hop utilization is going to be crap. I would use the highest AA hop you have access to and probably aim a little higher than 40 IBU.

I agree.

I would venture to guess the 40 IBU is calculated and not measured. Is that the target for before barrel aging for a year...or after?

I agree it is calculated. Must be 40 IBU added to the boil. All hops mellow fast in strong beer.