always getting diaceytl

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I am making my third lager and I am sure it taste just like the others....diaceytl. This is an Oktoberfest that started at 1.058. I pitched a 3L starter at 65F for 24 hrs, then moved to 50F with Wyeast Bavarian Lager. Fermented to what I thought was 1.021 (12 days), then 2 day diaceytl rest at 65F, then back to 50F. I checked with a refractometer and converted to 1.013. Big mistake. Transferred to a secondary to lager and took a hydrometer reading and got 1.019. I should finish at 1.014-1.016. I tasted the sample and I thought it does not taste like Oktoberfest, but maybe diacetyl. I could be paranoid, so I've taken it back to 565F in the secondary to do more of a rest. I hope transfering hasn't ruined the rest ability. I plan to keep it there for two days then back in the fridge for a week at 50F before lagering. I really need this to taste like Oktoberfest.

Any help?

 

[Denny]

A couple suggestions.....IMO, that's not enough yeast. And all my lagers have gotten immensely better since I chilled to a few degress below fermentation temp before pitching. Pitching warm ensures a fast start, but at the expense of beer flavor. And you really ain noth by getting a bit faster start. Let your lagers ferment for at lest 3 weeks, and I usually go 4. Pitch enough healthy yeast and give it plenty of time to do its job and you may not even need a d reast. I seldom do. It's best to do a d rest while the beer is still on the primary yeast. The more yeast there is, the easier it is for the yeast to clean up diacetyl. If all else fails, you can try krausening to clean up the diacetyl.

 

[homebrewdon]

What was your mash temp? I usually go for 150-152 to end up with some sweetness and residual body, this could be what your tasting in your beer. A true diacetyl test involves heating up a sample to 150 then cooling it down, if you smell the buttery/popcorn flavor you've got it. As far as the numbers go, I always use the same instrument to measure gravity for the same beer to avoid a calibration issue or weird equipment. I would retake a sample with refractometer, if its still low ramp back up to a D-rest temp for another few days and re-check. If gravity is good, resume lagering. Moral of the story: cant rush a lager, give it plenty of time. I prefer to have 6-8 weeks on the cake, taking grav samples every other day until I hit my D-rest number. Then I ramp up let it run for another few days, taking grav sample every day until I hit my mark. Then I slowly lower by 1-2 deg every other day until I hit rock bottom for the fridge, then another few weeks before I transfer to a keg and lock it up for 7-9mos. Let me know how it goes, I really enjoy the lager stuff, so I hope it all works out

 

[homebrewdon]

Consult Mr. Malty, if you used a stir plate you could get away with a much smaller starter for a 1058 lager assuming you used at least 2 packs/vials of yeast. I agree with Denny, always need more yeast for the lager. the last one I did I used a 5L starter on a stir plate with 2 smack packs with O2.

 

[generalzod4791]

Add more yeast to it, a couple of packs of saf-lager, hydrated, or a big active starter. It will help, I promise, it will work or my name isn't General Zod.

 

[helibrewer]

I'm in Denny's camp, I chill to about 2 degrees below fermentation temp before I pitch. After 3-4 weeks I pull it out of the ferm chamber and leave at room temp for 2 days, then back in to lager at 35 degrees for about a month (depends on style/gravity).

 

[biestie]

As others have said, pitch enough yeast (I dislike having to do such large starters so I use dry yeast for all lagers) and pitch slightly below fermentation temperature. I don't even do rests anymore after having learned that.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Add more yeast to it, a couple of packs of saf-lager, hydrated, or a big active starter. It will help, I promise, it will work or my name isn't General Zod.

Thanks,

This is definitely worth a try. I do think I had enough yeast at the beginning and certainly did not mean to rack it at such a high SG.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

A couple suggestions.....IMO, that's not enough yeast. And all my lagers have gotten immensely better since I chilled to a few degress below fermentation temp before pitching. Pitching warm ensures a fast start, but at the expense of beer flavor. And you really ain noth by getting a bit faster start. Let your lagers ferment for at lest 3 weeks, and I usually go 4. Pitch enough healthy yeast and give it plenty of time to do its job and you may not even need a d reast. I seldom do. It's best to do a d rest while the beer is still on the primary yeast. The more yeast there is, the easier it is for the yeast to clean up diacetyl. If all else fails, you can try krausening to clean up the diacetyl.

Denny's got it. I know some brewers say to pitch warm and then cool to fermentation temps as it kicks off, but that's just illogical. Diacetyl will be produced early, by stressed yeast, if you're trying to get them to kick off too warm, they're stressed an may produce diacetyl. What you want to do is, pitch at or slightly below fermentation temps, ferment to ~80% of attenuation and then raise temps ~5-10 degrees for the remainder of fermentation. Then step down to lagering temps. Also, consult a pitch rate calc to gauge starter size, you need a lot of yeast for a lager beer.

 

[celticcolorado]

As the others have said. Yeast pitching rate is very important. Also time is extremely important. I think many people have a tendency to jump to "lagering phase" too quickly. One thing you can do is a diacetyl test. Take a sample and let it warm up in a small container, then shake it and smell for diacetyl. If you smell butter then let it wait longer. Keep doing this until all diacetyl is gone, then pager.

 

[Denny]

Thanks,

This is definitely worth a try. I do think I had enough yeast at the beginning and certainly did not mean to rack it at such a high SG.

You may think you had enough yeast, but your results don't seem to support that.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

You may think you had enough yeast, but your results don't seem to support that.

For sure. I was appalled at the amount of yeast MrMalty said I needed for my first lager. I figured there was no way I needed over a gallon of starter, but it's true. Proper pitch count and tight temps and diacetyl shouldn't be an issue. I've never done the 'pitch warm' thing, but it seems to be counterintuitive to what we know about yeast and the flavors they can produce. Those guys get at it (reproducing) right away, and if they're too warm, or underpopulated, thus stressed, they're going to produce undesirable compounds.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

You may think you had enough yeast, but your results don't seem to support that.

What part of my results do not support that? I used 200ml of harvested yeast and added to a 3L starter. Fermentation was really active in 12 hrs and still is. I am not stuck at 1.020, but racked thinking it was 1.013. As of day 14 in fermentation it was 1.020 with a 1.058 OG and fermenting from 24 hrs to now at 50F.

 

[skeeloson]

Hi. I am in the same position with always having diacetyls. Just kegged a hellas and it has the same buttery-vanilla characteristics. Is there anyway to clean this up now that its in the keg. Or do i just have to play it off to my friends as a light vanilla lager. Thanks

 

[Sebas83]

Diacetyl comes from the malt, not from the yeast. Healthy yeast pitches are great but if you have a bunch of the precursor to diacetyl, you're screwed either way.

If you're using pilsner malt (as I'm sure you are) you need to boil for at least 90mins and DO NOT COVER your kettle, even partially. This is doubly true for German and Czech pilsner malt. The precursor will blow off at this phase and if you cover you're kettle, it will just condense and fall back in (happened to me) and use an immersion chiller to quickly cool the entire body of the wort. I believe at just below boiling the precursor will recombine as the true precursor to diacetyl and will undo your efforts during the boil if you have a slow cool down. Plate chillers are bad for making delicate lagers.

After that, big healthy starter of yeast at pitching temp will do you wonders. Also, try different yeasts. Sometimes it's the yeast or types of yeast that make a more pronounced diacetyl flavor.

There is little room for mistakes in these beers and every step has a place for a little mistake or futz that will come out BIG in the end.

Good luck!!

 

[Sebas83]

<edited>

 

[Denny]

Diacetyl comes from the malt, not from the yeast. Healthy yeast pitches are great but if you have a bunch of the precursor to diacetyl, you're screwed either way.

If you're using pilsner malt (as I'm sure you are) you need to boil for at least 90mins and DO NOT COVER your kettle, even partially. This is doubly true for German and Czech pilsner malt. The precursor will blow off at this phase and if you cover you're kettle, it will just condense and fall back in (happened to me) and use an immersion chiller to quickly cool the entire body of the wort. I believe at just below boiling the precursor will recombine as the true precursor to diacetyl and will undo your efforts during the boil if you have a slow cool down. Plate chillers are bad for making delicate lagers.

After that, big healthy starter of yeast at pitching temp will do you wonders. Also, try different yeasts. Sometimes it's the yeast or types of yeast that make a more pronounced diacetyl flavor.

There is little room for mistakes in these beers and every step has a place for a little mistake or futz that will come out BIG in the end.

Good luck!!

Are you sure you're not talking about SMM and DMS?

 

[Sebas83]

Damnit... Shouldn't have posted then too many on this summer eve.