Almost Complete (W/Pictures)

[brew-n-que]

So what about soldering the metal cover in Kal's design to the element flange?

At first glance this appears to solve the stated issue while retaining the ability to replace the element fairly easily?

 

[rollinred]

So what about soldering the metal cover in Kal's design to the element flange?

At first glance this appears to solve the stated issue while retaining the ability to replace the element fairly easily?

It would, but you would melt the plastic on the element if you tried it. For that mater, if it was possible to solder an element in place you could just take the design I came up with, and solder it to the back of the box after sanding the paint off. That would be the absolute ideal solution.

 

[kevink]

Yeah, I wish!

Actually, if anyone has a bad element laying around, I'll gladly accept it (I'll pay shipping) and do some experimental TIG welding on it to see how much heat it can take. If we could successfully TIG these things without ruining the base, a million doors would open. I'm not optimistic, but you never know. They're obviously built to take SOME heat already, so they may be able to withstand very careful TIG welding. Please PM me if you have one that you no longer need.

 

[lschiavo]

Nobody is arguing anymore. Did we finally make our point?

 

[cl330b]

That's because we all decided that tack welding the element sucks.

 

[lschiavo]

Tack welding was not our point.

 

[cl330b]

Tack welding was not our point.

I know, the point is wort leaking past the o-ring and entering the box.

 

[lschiavo]

I know, the point is wort leaking past the o-ring and entering the box.

Alright, you pass. Now go tack weld something to something else

 

[rollinred]

That's because we all decided that tack welding the element sucks.

Tack welding vs wort leaking in to the electrical box without you knowing.

I will take the tack weld for 1000 Alex.

Kevin. My intention is to fire up my dads TIG and finish up the weld. I just have to get a little practice with it on AC first. Heat management, we shall see how it goes.

 

[kevink]

He's obviously in the camp of "If I can't make it with a hammer and a screwdriver, or if it costs more than 5 dollars, it sucks. I don't care if it's clearly superior." There's way too many people here who belong to that camp, and quite frankly, it's frightening... and sad.

 

[cl330b]

Alright, you pass. Now go tack weld something

Haha! You have a good sense of humor Ischiavo. Goodnight gents.

 

[Ajgeo]

That's because we all decided that tack welding the element sucks.

+1. Also, this element mount hasn't even been used to heat water yet, let alone brew beer. Rollinred presented this as an improvement over kal's system, yet really it is just another method entirely. Is it the best method? That is up to the builder/user and is just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one.

Rollin also has a misunderstanding of how an o-ring works, especially in Kal's system. His method may work fine, but Kal's method remains the best weldless element installation. It has been proven many times by many people and is completely safe.

If the point is wort leaking into the box because of a theoretical o-ring failure, that point is unproven. Kal's method doesn't allow the box or element to move, so I cannot see how the o-ring would get damaged. No one would purposely install a defective o-ring.

I think a welded coupler installation like Ischaivo's method is ideal, but welding isn't an option for many. Did this start out as a build thread? Nevertheless, this is a good discussion, maybe we need to have an ultimate best of all time way to mount an electric element thread.

 

[cl330b]

He's obviously in the camp of "If I can't make it with a hammer and a screwdriver, or if it costs more than 5 dollars, it sucks. I don't care if it's clearly superior." There's way too many people here who belong to that camp, and quite frankly, it's frightening... and sad.

You don't know me or what I do. The only thing sad here is your judgement. What makes the tack weld so "superior" in your opinion? Kals method is tried and true. You and Rollin think your above everyone else because you use your dads welder? Gimme a break.

 

[kevink]

What makes the tack weld so "superior" in your opinion

I never said tack welds were superior. I don't love that idea. It doesn't make the element connections water tight, but what it does do is prevent the wort from having a direct path to the element connections if the o-ring leaks. The whole time I have been stating how I think Kal's design can be improved, nothing more. Scroll up and read the thread. Now we're officially beating a dead horse, I'm out.

BTW, Rollin's not my brother.

 

[rollinred]

+1. Also, this element mount hasn't even been used to heat water yet, let alone brew beer. Rollinred presented this as an improvement over kal's system, yet really it is just another method entirely. Is it the best method? That is up to the builder/user and is just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one.

Rollin also has a misunderstanding of how an o-ring works, especially in Kal's system. His method may work fine, but Kal's method remains the best weldless element installation. It has been proven many times by many people and is completely safe.

If the point is wort leaking into the box because of a theoretical o-ring failure, that point is unproven. Kal's method doesn't allow the box or element to move, so I cannot see how the o-ring would get damaged. No one would purposely install a defective o-ring.

I think a welded coupler installation like Ischaivo's method is ideal, but welding isn't an option for many. Did this start out as a build thread? Nevertheless, this is a good discussion, maybe we need to have an ultimate best of all time way to mount an electric element thread.

It is amazing how positive improvement is met with such resistance....

This thread is like the anti-electric crowd vs. the electric crowd.

Instead we have the "old time element mounters" vs. the "New time element mounters"

I SOOOO badly want to use profanities here.... but I will refrain as best I can.

The IDIOT above me (sorry, last and only negative towards a person I will use, but this type of stuff they talked is DANGEROUS), assumes everything. This setup HAS been used to boil and HAS been thoroughly tested. I have tested BOTH the Kal method and this tack weld method and the tack weld is FAR superior.

With the Kal method a simple leak could turn in to wort/water inside the electrial box.

The tack weld will NOT allow ANY water inside the box in case of seal failure. If you have some type of failure which might allow water in with my method you would notice it because the electrical box would be soaked in wort/water.


It's unfortunate that people get so wrapped up on the current trends that they can't see the benefits of improvement. This is like... OH... this works... but we don't care.... we are going to keep the stone age... we know it sucks but we are too stuborn to change.

 

[cl330b]

I read the entire thread. You said "...I don't care if it's clearly superior". I never said or even thought that but you were hypothetically quoting me. You must have had that thought at some time. Now your back peddling? C'mon man, stick to your guns!

Oh and I don't think Rollin is your brother. I just figured your were stuck so far up his "o-ring" that when he uses his dads welder your there too!

 

[jlachesk]

Well, I'll start off by saying bravo to those involved in advancing the state of the electric brewer.

That being said, wow things are getting tense here. Actually, my previous comment was really my only contribution.

RDWHAHB?

 

[rollinred]

+1. Also, this element mount hasn't even been used to heat water yet, let alone brew beer. Rollinred presented this as an improvement over kal's system, yet really it is just another method entirely. Is it the best method? That is up to the builder/user and is just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one.

Rollin also has a misunderstanding of how an o-ring works, especially in Kal's system. His method may work fine, but Kal's method remains the best weldless element installation. It has been proven many times by many people and is completely safe.

If the point is wort leaking into the box because of a theoretical o-ring failure, that point is unproven. Kal's method doesn't allow the box or element to move, so I cannot see how the o-ring would get damaged. No one would purposely install a defective o-ring.

I think a welded coupler installation like Ischaivo's method is ideal, but welding isn't an option for many. Did this start out as a build thread? Nevertheless, this is a good discussion, maybe we need to have an ultimate best of all time way to mount an electric element thread.

WAIT.... WTF.....?

Ischaivo's Method is ideal??!!! yet what I posted is the same as his yet more water resistant. You make no F'in sense dude....

 

[rollinred]

I read the entire thread. You said "...I don't care if it's clearly superior". I never said or even thought that but you were hypothetically quoting me. You must have had that thought at some time. Now your back peddling? C'mon man, stick to your guns!

Oh and I don't think Rollin is your brother. I just figured your were stuck so far up his "o-ring" that when he uses his dads welder your there too!

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt... thanks for proving it cl330b.... unless you want to stop the bullcrap and talk reality. Kevin had reality on his side... you have nothing but personal opinion.

 

[cl330b]

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt... thanks for proving it cl330b.... unless you want to stop the bullcrap and talk reality. Kevin had reality on his side... you have nothing but personal opinion.

It's ok if you trash talk but no one else is allowed? You called another member an idiot, remember? Then you called me a fool. You busted out the almighty cliche! Man my feelings are really hurt. It really doesn't matter to me what you think. And how did Kevin have reality on his side? He started trash talking me, some comment about a hammer and $5. Where's the reality there. It's amazing how fast a debate can go south.

 

[rollinred]

It's ok if you trash talk but no one else is allowed? You called another member an idiot, remember? Then you called me a fool. Then you bust out the almighty cliche! Man my feelings are really hurt. It really doesn't matter to me what you think.

You brought it on yourself. If you had brought anything of value to the conversation we wouldn't have to be here. Bring something of value or get out.

What a few of us are talking about could save the lives of brewers who would otherwise think the Kal method is safe.

But your "know it all" opinion, is going to jump in a jeopardise the fact that the Kal method is dangerous without prior precautions.... thanks for your added input.

The only reason I am even "trash talking" if you call it that, is that what is going on here is dangerous! Anything I can do to get the point across has to be done. Even if it means people getting pissed... I would go to the point of banishment from the site... that is how dangerous the Kal method is without a weep hole.

Not a super hero but trying to save lives.... hate me if you want, I don't give a ****. The stuff going on here is deadly.

EDIT: I am laughing at this even though I was at first quite pissed.... But I learned my lesson for today:
Do NOT innovate.... Do NOT improve... Do NOT challenge authority. Embrace mediocrity... Obama would be proud.

No... I will not. The Kal method is dangerous period... And I will speak out. I love what Kal has done for our community... but he has created a dangerous situation unknowingly. If I have to be the one to take the brunt of the change I will.

 

[cl330b]

Look, if wort/water does get into the box and start fill it up, As soon as one or both of the hot leads are shorted to the junction box or whatever is being used, as long as the grounding in the system and the building is correct, the breaker will trip or the fuses will open etc. this will happen quickly. Current will increase to its maximum on the hot leads very fast. If this basic grounding concept is not understood then maybe that particular brewer should not be involved in electric builds. I know, I know, your just trying to save the world one brewing idiot at a time. You should be pushing proper grounding just as hard if you truly knew what you were talking about.

Oh, and I don't hate you. I can tell it really bothers you when someone questions you.

More importantly than the oring leaking is the grounding, fusing, and all other over-current protection. not to mention proper design as well. The weep hole is probably the smartest thing I've heard you say.

Proper grounding will save lives, not tack welding.

Goodnight.

 

[rollinred]

Look, if wort/water does get into the box and start fill it up, As soon as one or both of the hot leads are shorted to the junction box or whatever is being used, as long as the grounding in the system and the building is correct, the breaker will trip or the fuses will open etc. this will happen quickly. Current will increase to its maximum on the hot leads very fast. If this basic grounding concept is not understood then maybe that particular brewer should not be involved in electric builds. I know, I know, your just trying to save the world one brewing idiot at a time. You should be pushing proper grounding just as hard if you truly knew what you were talking about.

Oh, and I don't hate you. I can tell it really bothers you when someone questions you.

More importantly than the oring leaking is the grounding, fusing, and all other over-current protection. not to mention proper design as well. The weep hole is probably the smartest thing I've heard you say.

Proper grounding will save lives, not tack welding.

Goodnight.

No offence but it is clear you had nothing to add to the conversation. You brought everything back a notch. We ALL know about proper grounding and the appropriate methods for GFCI protection.

The problem is that you joined the discussion with your "superiority" and no basis to implement it. You have not added ANYTHING to the discussion that changes a thing.

The Kal method CAN allow wort from the kettle to directly fill the electrical box.

My method will not allow wort to enter the box.....

The benefit is BLATANT....
I am trying to keep my cool with the amount of bullcrap that is coming in here but I am about at my end. THIS METHOD IS SUPERIOR.... PERIOD. Hate it if you want, you keep coming back I am trying to keep my cool with the amount of bullcrap that is coming in here but I am about at my end. THIS METHOD IS SUPERIOR.... PERIOD. Hate it if you want, you keep coming back with praise for it but trying to give it in a manner which doesn't with praise for it but trying to give it in a manner which doesn't
What else needs to be said?

 

[rollinred]

BTW... If we rely on good ground and such... wouldn't tack welds improve the situation? I am sure you will have some excuse so it will be fun to read.

 

[cl330b]

BTW... If we rely on good ground and such... wouldn't tack welds improve the situation? I am sure you will have some excuse so it will be fun to read.

In your little pea brain you think the only way to ground this type of system is using the element threads and the nut sandwiching the kettle wall? wow, you really should not be working with electricity. This proves your incompetence.

And by the way, it is you who brought this on yourself. If I recall, you started putting down Kals method early on. If you didn't want to deal with this you should not have brought someone else's methods into it in the first place. You should have just posted that learned how to tack weld and left it at that.

Oh and let me guess, your off to the propane brewing threads to save lives over there by over reacting about people needing to use fans. Go tack weld your mouth shut dick.

 

[Ajgeo]

It is amazing how positive improvement is met with such resistance....

This thread is like the anti-electric crowd vs. the electric crowd.

Instead we have the "old time element mounters" vs. the "New time element mounters"

I SOOOO badly want to use profanities here.... but I will refrain as best I can.

The IDIOT above me (sorry, last and only negative towards a person I will use, but this type of stuff they talked is DANGEROUS), assumes everything. This setup HAS been used to boil and HAS been thoroughly tested. I have tested BOTH the Kal method and this tack weld method and the tack weld is FAR superior.

With the Kal method a simple leak could turn in to wort/water inside the electrial box.

The tack weld will NOT allow ANY water inside the box in case of seal failure. If you have some type of failure which might allow water in with my method you would notice it because the electrical box would be soaked in wort/water.


It's unfortunate that people get so wrapped up on the current trends that they can't see the benefits of improvement. This is like... OH... this works... but we don't care.... we are going to keep the stone age... we know it sucks but we are too stuborn to change.

Wow, really? Lame. When you resorted to name calling, you lost all credibility. It is now clear you are just on some holy mission to prove your method is the end all be all, and it is not.

Show me one instance where leakage into the box has occurred with Kal's method during use, after proper installation and testing..... you cannot.

You had leakage with it because you cannot follow instructions.

BTW, because you cannot understand, I will explain for you why Ischaivo's method is ideal and different from yours: His method uses a welded coupler, this offsets it from the kettle, providing a buffer area in the event of a boil-over. Again, in case you missed it, this is a welded solution. With your method, in a boil-over, wort seeps between the tack welds in your setup and into the box.

I am always open to a better weldless installation, as I am getting ready to add an element to my HLT, but this is clearly not it.

I am done with this thread, there is beer to be made.

 

[rollinred]

BTW, because you cannot understand, I will explain for you why Ischaivo's method is ideal and different from yours: His method uses a welded coupler, this offsets it from the kettle, providing a buffer area in the event of a boil-over. Again, in case you missed it, this is a welded solution. With your method, in a boil-over, wort seeps between the tack welds in your setup and into the box.

Mr. Professor, what keeps the water out of his electrical box?

Obviously there are some of us that understand the Kal method more than those using it. If you're going to use it, drill a weep hole.

This isn't "my method" as I have mentioned may times. Many others have used it just not with a water resistant box. It is superior because it isolates the electrical connections from the kettle.

It is clear you have come in here with the intention of trying to discredit anyone who does not agree with the method you use. And yes, I was critical of the Kal method early on (as were many others) because it can be dangerous. Then we have other crap spewing trolls tying to discredit the grounding of the element through metal to metal contact all the while they are propping up the Kal method as acceptable. I work in this type of industry and metal to metal contact through mounting bolts meets all requirements.

I don't resort to name calling until people start ignoring fact purposefully to distort the discussion. That alone is worse than name calling because changes the entire tone of the discussion, which is what you have done. Now go brew some beer.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Name calling and personal attacks are not tolerated here. I issued several two day bans. I don't care who "started it." Enough.