All "my" homebrew tastes the same!

[camonick]

My quote is not from a book, but rather than lengthy tutorial on brewing water from the Bru’n Water spreadsheet. It’s one of several water calculators that many of us use to make mash and sparge water predictions/ adjustments. It has proven to be very accurate when using either RO or distilled water and an accurate grain bill. The starting pH of distilled and RO water are pre-determined figures in the spreadsheet which are relatively insignificant. I don’t know how you manipulate your brewing water or what tools you use to do so, but it seems that your question might be better answered by some of our resident water experts such as @mabrungard or @Silver_Is_Money .

 

[lightningbug]

My quote is not from a book, but rather than lengthy tutorial on brewing water from the Bru’n Water spreadsheet. It’s one of several water calculators that many of us use to make mash and sparge water predictions/ adjustments. It has proven to be very accurate when using either RO or distilled water and an accurate grain bill. The starting pH of distilled and RO water are pre-determined figures in the spreadsheet which are relatively insignificant. I don’t know how you manipulate your brewing water or what tools you use to do so, but it seems that your question might be better answered by some of our resident water experts such as @mabrungard or @Silver_Is_Money .

You answered it. The question I had from the very beginning. I don’t know why we had two pages of “wtf dude read a book” when all someone had to say was “I dont bother with it because my calculator does it for me and it’s close enough that it doesnt matter”.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@lightningbug , the intent of this reply

Water Chemistry - How to Build Your Water - Bertus Brewery (from the year twenty twelve).

was to reinforce a point that there are ways to construct a low cost proven recipe using RO/distilled water that could be used by others for troubleshooting. And those techniques have been in print for around a decade.

As an aside, for those who are still reading here, there's a home brewer (in a different homebrewing forum) who is actively brewing using the water adjustment techniques from Modern Homebrew Recipes (2016) with some of the easier adjustments for reducing oxidation during the brew day. With RO/distilled water, one can include the actual amounts used - and this home brewer does this. So the recipes are both educational and tasty.

And, on the extract+steep side, there's a brewer here who has adjusted their brew day to make a slurry for the late addition of DME. No frantic stirring, no clumps, no scorching.

What's the point?

Well documented, proven, recipes can be used for both troubleshooting and communicating new techniques.

(tentatively).

editz fore typohz.

 

[lightningbug]

@lightningbug , the intent of this reply



was to reinforce a point that there are ways to construct a low cost proven recipe using RO/distilled water that could be used by others for troubleshooting. And those techniques have been in print for around a decade.

As an aside, for those who are still reading here, there's a home brewer (in a different homebrewing forum) who is actively brewing using the water adjustment techniques from Modern Homebrew Recipes (2016) with some of the easier adjustments for reducing oxidation during the brew day. With RO/distilled water, one can include the actual amounts used - and this home brewer does this. So the recipes are both educational and tasty.

And, on the extract+steep side, there's a brewer here who has adjusted their brew day to make a slurry for the late addition of DME. No frantic stirring, no clumps, no scorching.

What's the point?

Well documented, proven, recipes can be used for both troubleshooting and communicating new techniques.

(tentatively).

editz fore typohz.

Is RO really that consistent that you can just trust the calculators? Like I said before, I don’t use RO but I always find my mash pH ends up considerably different from what the calculator in my software estimates. I’ll adjust my profile with mineral additions, but I’ll still use a pH meter during the mash and then and add lactic acid in 1ml increments to bring it to the correct value.

 

[Miraculix]

Is RO really that consistent that you can just trust the calculators? Like I said before, I don’t use RO but I always find my mash pH ends up considerably different from what the calculator in my software estimates. I’ll adjust my profile with mineral additions, but I’ll still use a pH meter during the mash and then and add lactic acid in 1ml increments to bring it to the correct value.

At which temperature are you measuring? At which time? There are huge shifts in time and there are huge shifts at different temperatures so your numbers might be actually all right. Even us home brewers are not sure if to measure pH at mash or at room temperature. 15 minute into the mash seems to be the preferred time window though.

The thing with pH is, it is more complicated than one might think and it is a logarithmic scale. This means that the further you move away from neutral, the more h3o+ or oh- you need to actually move the pH by a certain number.

And also, it is all about buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is 8 (just made something up) but it doesn't have anything to buffer the pH, a small acid addition will heavily impact the pH. If there's a buffer present, much more acid would be necessary to change the pH. So at the end, pH of the water does not matter much, if at all, buffering capacity is what we are looking at.

 

[camonick]

But out of curiosity could you cite the book and section where I can confirm it? That would just be choice, thanks.

You asked for sources, then when given them or first hand knowledge, you discount them and get mad.

How do you read or estimate the mash pH without the initial water pH or a pH meter? My initial question.

Your “initial question” was answered… starting water pH is insignificant.

Is RO really that consistent that you can just trust the calculators? Like I said before, I don’t use RO but I always find my mash pH ends up considerably different from what the calculator in my software estimates. I’ll adjust my profile with mineral additions, but I’ll still use a pH meter during the mash and then and add lactic acid in 1ml increments to bring it to the correct value.

Yes, RO and distilled water are that consistent. It’s because you are concerned with the mineral content (which directly affects mash pH) rather than original pH. That’s why many people use them… you are starting with a clean slate. You probably have to adjust your brewing water because of varying mineral content, not the starting pH which is mostly insignificant.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Is RO really that consistent that you can just trust the calculators?

I use distilled water. I also have a pH meter that I use occasionally to re-confirm the estimates.

People who use RO water often have a TDS meter (I mentioned it back in #28) to confirm the quality of the water. They report similar experiences - you can trust the calculators.

And, FWIW, the water adjustment process in Modern Homebrew Receipes (much like the page I mentioned in #30) doesn't need "water chemistry" software. It's just basic measurements based on style, then "season to taste".

 

[lightningbug]

You asked for sources, then when given them or first hand knowledge, you discount them and get mad.

Your “initial question” was answered… starting water pH is insignificant.

Yes, RO and distilled water are that consistent. It’s because you are concerned with the mineral content (which directly affects mash pH) rather than original pH. That’s why many people use them… you are starting with a clean slate. You probably have to adjust your brewing water because of varying mineral content, not the starting pH which is mostly insignificant.

"First-hand knowledge" is also known as "anecdotal evidence" and is not evidence at all. Neither is "people have done this for decades".

The simple point that everyone was dancing around seen in bold below:

- We all know that mineral additions and mash selection impact the pH of the mash.
- Our brewing software, calculators, and equations use these additions to adjust the pH
- Our software/calculator/equations are taking a pH of ___ and adjusting it to 5.2-5.6

You answered this. At least you tried to, and I do actually appreciate it. Same with some of the others who are actually trying to discuss the topic in the thread.

 

[camonick]

- Our software/calculator/equations are taking a pH of ___ and adjusting it to 5.2-5.6

But that’s not what they are doing and that’s why I asked some of the “experts” to help explain. The mineral content and buffering ability (alkalinity) of the starting water is what’s important, not necessarily the pH, which is what Miraculix alludes to here —

And also, it is all about buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is 8 (just made something up) but it doesn't have anything to buffer the pH, a small acid addition will heavily impact the pH. If there's a buffer present, much more acid would be necessary to change the pH. So at the end, pH of the water does not matter much, if at all, buffering capacity is what we are looking at.

That’s why it’s recommended by many to use RO/ distilled water (they are generally accepted to have the same values every time) and a calculator to help generate a consistent water profile. If the source water being used has variable mineral content (not pH), you will usually be chasing a moving target.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

CaCo3 and HCO3, google it. Then come back, there's the door thanks and good night.

 

[AlexKay]

Not weighing in on who said what or who's being unpleasant to whom.

But just to reiterate, I could start with distilled water and use small amounts of HCl or NaOH to adjust the pH between 2 and 12. Regardless of where I chose that pH, though, the mash pH after adding a few kilos of grain will be the same, and it will depend only on the buffering system created by the proteins in the barley.

The same is true of any water where the total mineral content is low (as can be measured by a TDS meter.) The pH can vary -- lower if there's a dissolved CO2, higher if there are small amounts of carbonates -- and it could vary a lot, but that variation won't be consequential once you've started mashing.

So yes, the pH of RO or distilled water could range from 4 to 10, say, but that won't affect the mash pH.

All that said, if you're not using RO, and you have a lot of calcium or carbonates in you water, that can have a huge effect on mash pH. So you either need to know your water composition, or you need to use distilled/RO. A pH measurement of your input water, in and of itself, does not provide useful information.

 

[camonick]

Not weighing in on who said what or who's being unpleasant to whom.

But just to reiterate, I could start with distilled water and use small amounts of HCl or NaOH to adjust the pH between 2 and 12. Regardless of where I chose that pH, though, the mash pH after adding a few kilos of grain will be the same, and it will depend only on the buffering system created by the proteins in the barley.

The same is true of any water where the total mineral content is low (as can be measured by a TDS meter.) The pH can vary -- lower if there's a dissolved CO2, higher if there are small amounts of carbonates -- and it could vary a lot, but that variation won't be consequential once you've started mashing.

So yes, the pH of RO or distilled water could range from 4 to 10, say, but that won't affect the mash pH.

All that said, if you're not using RO, and you have a lot of calcium or carbonates in you water, that can have a huge effect on mash pH. So you either need to know your water composition, or you need to use distilled/RO. A pH measurement of your input water, in and of itself, does not provide useful information.

That’s kind of where I was headed, but you beat me to it as I was typing.

Let’s approach this from a different angle…
If you browse through all the “Got my water report today, how’s it look?” in the “Brew Science” forum and pay close attention to the pH values compared to the other mineral values, you will see that source water pH isn’t the primary value used for mash water calculators. Many of those posts will have pH values that are equal or within a point or 2 of each other, but wildly different values for the other numbers.
You can enter a water with a pH of 7.6 (theoretical) and I can enter a water with a pH of 7.6 (theoretical), but have completely different numbers for all of our other values. The calculators are concerned with all of the other numbers that are different therefore, starting water pH doesn’t matter. They simply aren’t taking a water with pH “X” and changing it to a water with pH “Y” because there are too many other variables to get to “Y”.

Edit: grammar correction

 

[hout17]

You folks are doing a great service. I lost my cool earlier. I don't think your approach will matter unfortunately but I wish you well.

 

[dmtaylor]

Smells like effing LODO in here. Keep in mind, folks, this is the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum. Anyone seen the OP lately?!

 

[hotbeer]

@lightningbug another part of the thinking might be that RO water is generally going to be almost like distilled water with almost no minerals and more to the point no buffering capacity for pH.

However I too would think before starting to add stuff to water, you'd want to double check a few things that can easily be checked first. But maybe when a person has been doing this for a while, they realize it just doesn't make that much difference to know. Because just about anything will swing the pH of demineralized water in significant amounts till a certain amount of stuff gets put in it to act as buffers.

I don't mess with the chemicals yet. The water I use seems to be right on target at 5.4 pH and when my sparging is almost done, I'm still at 5.4 pH for wort and running's.

 

[Knightshade]

Smells like effing LODO in here. Keep in mind, folks, this is the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum. Anyone seen the OP lately?!

I was thinking the same thing. The Op only provided a few tidbits of info, all the while there are plenty of people willing to help, or perhaps “boil the ocean” in an effort to assist.

If this site had a chat box module, it would be impossible to keep up.

 

[mashpaddled]

Tough to say in one brewer's case why the beers all taste the same. There's not one single reason. It could be that you buy old kits that are just too long in the tooth. It could be water, yeast health, oxidation, etc.

As far as why pro brewers don't suffer this issue well I would say you can find plenty of craft brewers who suffer these same problems. They usually go out of business in time if they can't get their beer quality up to par but you can always find somebody out there pumping out a lineup of less than ideal beers. You don't see it as often for various reasons. Experienced, trained brewers using high end equipment, fresh ingredients, low oxidation systems and a lot of QC testing to make the same beers over and over tends to help out a lot.

 

[Zambezi Special]

The OP may not be there, but I got some valuable knowledge out of this thread

 

[CDS]

Smells like effing LODO in here. Keep in mind, folks, this is the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum. Anyone seen the OP lately?!

He's long gone at this point, and after reading through the last half of replies, I can't say I blame him. Fun times.

 

[Joe P]

I started mashing 40 years ago. Rested for a few years then got back with extract recipe kit beers. Cerveza, Ales, Wheat ect, all tasted different & pretty good actually. Recently i got back into researching different Porter recipes, non kit just threw the ingredients together and brewed from expierence. Made 3 Porters this year and all tasted of different notes and body or head retention or mouthfeel. ALL brews tasting the same as this thread mentioned is sort of a mystery to me. However, on this HBT site you have many SERIOUSLY talented brewers that can definetly help you fix your dilemma. As for me I have no answers. I just made a Kentucky "Common" brew yesterday buy finding different recipes and methods through research. (Get this) I used 3# flaked Corn & 3# Flaked Rye in a 5 gal batch.I guarantee this brew will not taste the same of anything i ever made. Im hopeful it turns out tasty but i wont know for at least 1 month. Far longer fermentation or resting then called for. Anyway, listen to what the Beer dudes are saying. They are correct. Just saying

 

[Karpool]

I dont use RO water so I’m not sure about its mineral content and pH. If it’s truly zeros across the board and pH 7 then yeah, that would probably work.

PH should be between 5.2 and 5.6 for home-brew. If its 7 then you are not converting enough sugars.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I dont use RO water so I’m not sure about its mineral content and pH. If it’s truly zeros across the board and pH 7 then yeah, that would probably work.

PH should be between 5.2 and 5.6 for home-brew. If its 7 then you are not converting enough sugars.

Mash pH should be in that range.

LightningBug was asking about the pH of RO water.

 

[AlexKay]

Unless you're going to quite bit of trouble to remove dissolved CO2, both your RO and distilled water will have a pH well below 7. My RO is regularly in the 5s. (I know this because I use RO to clean my pH meter after I measure wort.)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back in reply #22, there was a solid troubleshooting technique assuming tap water with unknown mineral content:

Invest $50 in a pH meter, $50 in a water test (ward lab), and $10 in assorted mineral and acid additives… lactic acid, calcium chloride, gypsum, epsom salt. That $110 will go way further than anything else you can spend right now.

Back in reply #24, I offered a reduced cost alternative with RO water

Assuming a solid recipe, distilled / RO water, good estimation software, some aciduated malt, calcium chloride, gypsum - the only additional costs that I see would be the water. So maybe an additional $10 for a 'test' batch?

back in reply #27, was the agreement to the idea

I dont use RO water so I’m not sure about its mineral content and pH. If it’s truly zeros across the board and pH 7 then yeah, that would probably work.

back in #28, it was noted

With RO/distilled water, pH of the water isn't important (vs pH of the wort during the mash).

If someone is willing to post a recipe / process for a one off brew session with distilled / RO water, that would benefit a lot of homebrewers. There may be bonus points for documenting the recipe with places for sampling / tasting / measuring along the way.

 

[bwible]

Doesn’t answer my question. It just says to add 2-3% acid malt to lower the pH. What if you already have acidic water and dont realize it? What if your pH is higher than the author’s pH? What about the difference for beers with highly roasted dark malts versus light, clean recipes?

How could you account for all this without a pH meter OR a water test

First you have to know whats in your water. A ph meter by itself doesn’t tell you that. You have to send away a sample to a place like Ward Labs and get your results back. It costs about $40 if I remember. Worth every cent. I’ve had mine done once and I’m going to get it done again during a different season to compare results.

Then you use one of the water chem programs people listed earlier. You enter your water numbers from your report and your grain bill for the beer you are brewing. Then you have to enter gypsum and/or calcium chloride to get the minerals where you want them. After all that is entered then you see what the software says the ph will be and then you adjust with acid or acid malt last. Because the minerals affect ph too. The software is usually spot on. I don’t own a ph meter or buy ph test strips and haven’t run into a problem yet.

 

[Bobby_M]

So, pretty much what's in chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e (oxidation is covered in a later chapter).

I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be getting at.

 

[Bobby_M]

You have a problem with reading comprehension. Nobody has actually answered the question as to how you “adjust” a number you dont know to get mash pH. You in particular posted a book quote that said “the initial water pH doesn’t matter, the mash pH does” and for some reason you take that mean “you don’t even need to know your initial water pH, it doesnt exist” as opposed to “it doesnt matter as long as you adjust it to the correct pH for the mash”.

You've gotten pretty fired up through the course of this thread and I'm not seeing the justification. People are trying to be helpful for the most part.

The simple answer is that the calculations for where a mash pH will end up for a given water profile (ionic content) and a given grain bill is very complicated. Software such as Brew n'water, Mash made easy, Brewfather, and others use formulas created by chemists.

RO and distilled water are essentially the same, almost completely devoid of salts. "We" know this because that's what RO filters are designed to do. I personally know this because I have an inline TDS meter on the output of my RO system and it reads a pretty consistent 6-7ppm (compared to the 400ppm going in). I have also sent my well water and the RO output water to a lab to test the ionic content. I don't think this part of it is anecdotal.

This is starting from a known water profile so the formulas I mentioned will work pretty well. It starts to get a little blurry when it comes to grain bills and their affect on the mash pH. There are thousands of different grains and the actual mash pH is going to be hard to nail down perfectly because even the acidity from one lot to another varies. Nevertheless, some assumptions are made for the sake of the software calculations and they do an adequate job of estimating what the pH will be if you load the starting water profile in correctly. For RO or Distilled water, the ionic content is zero or near zero. For those who do not want to source RO or distilled water, it's best to get a water test done so you know what you're starting with.

The reason why it SEEMS like people are dancing around your starting water pH question (and this has already been repeated several times) is that the ionic makeup of the water is the only thing you need to know. The starting pH is irrelevant and not the figure that gets manipulated. I mean it does indirectly, but the question of "how do you adjust your water pH?" is a bit of a trick question.

If you DON'T know what your water is, the only thing you should be adding to your mash is acid or base in response to a pH reading you don't like. Indiscriminately adding other salts is pissing in the wind.


TLDR: If you know your water's ionic content (which a Wardlab.com test or starting with RO water will both acheive), and you use software like Brewfather, it will very adequately estimate your mash pH for a given recipe. I know it's adequate because I also have a pH meter and it has been close enough for dozens of batches. After enough people agree with this as a true statement, even anecdotally, you eventually have to believe it enough to try it for yourself at the very least. Or not.

 

[bracconiere]

“I dont bother with it because my calculator does it for me and it’s close enough that it doesnt matter”.

hey! i can still tell the difference between a really stouty stout, and a all base malt light beer! lol

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...] tell the difference between a stouty stout [vs] light beer

What about comparing a stouty stout to a portly porter?

 

[bracconiere]

What about comparing a stouty stout to a portly porter?

the way it was explained to me you bring the tap to the char for a 'stout', and you walk to the tap for a porter?

 

[bwible]

So the guy is gone, nobody ever got an answer to what the “homebrew” flavor means. Could be anything - from a band aid type infection to oxygenation to underattenuation to a number of other things. But I like how everybody went off on all their own seperate tangents and discussions without ever getting enough info from the op.

 

[Joe P]

After realizing the question, if its water, get it tested. Buy a PH test kit or have a service do it or send the water to a lab, await the results then read on how to adjust the imbalance. IF the H2o is the problem.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Or use RO/distilled water in a proven recipe in a 'test' batch.

With an RO/distilled water and a proven recipe, there is no need to recalculate salt / acid additions - and the water adjustment ingredients can be included in the recipe.

 

[Joe P]

Good Advice B! Simple solution.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So, pretty much what's in chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e (oxidation is covered in a later chapter).

I'm not sure what this post is supposed to be getting at.

Chapter 1 proposes a list of top priorities for making great beer.

• Sanitation
• Fermentation temperature control
• Proper yeast management
• Proper boil
• Solid recipe

Previous threads/topics on "new brewer off flavors" (aka "homebrew taste") have extended this list to include

• water adjustments for quality water, proper mash, and flavoring
• oxygen ingress prevention and mitigation

So, for purposes of discussion here, one can pick a priority that hasn't been covered well will and offer an approach.

Observing / tasting beer through the brewing process helps identify which step (or steps) in the process is introducing the problem. For example, with a dirty (or leaking) auto-siphon, the beer will likely taste good at packaging, but not in the glass.

 

[Bobby_M]

So the guy is gone, nobody ever got an answer to what the “homebrew” flavor means. Could be anything - from a band aid type infection to oxygenation to underattenuation to a number of other things. But I like how everybody went off on all their own seperate tangents and discussions without ever getting enough info from the op.

The OP failed to actively participate in the thread and sometimes discussions diverge. This isnt project management software.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The OP failed to actively participate in the thread

Historically, calling out an OP that didn't return often causes OP to return the next day.

Let's see what develops!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

If all the OP's beers are tasting the same, my initial reply to him would be to add more hops, a lot more hops.

 

[marc1]

OP has been a forum member since 2013. It would be strange for them to abandon the account now. Maybe they'll come back in another decade.

I'm sure people will still be willing to help them.

 

[camonick]

My very first question in post #2 was in regards to the source water. What I wanted to know, was if it was tap water treated with chlorine/chloramines. My answer, then, would have been to treat with campden tablets. I am very sensitive to that flavor, having lived on a rural private well my entire life and not drinking water that’s chlorinated. Every beer I’ve ever had from other brewers who don’t treat their city tap water has the same underlying flavor to me regardless of style. OP stated they used bottled water from the store. Later on other questions and beliefs about bottled water and RO/DI water were posted that weren’t being understood/ accepted. There were actually quite a few posts deleted or modified by a moderator, which makes it hard to understand the context of some of the conversation. These sometimes do go sideways when the OP stops participating, which was in post #8. Maybe they are still lurking or have been scared off. If they’re still following, narrowing down the “flavor” will certainly yield more useful banter. Here’s a list of common “off flavors” they can look at.
https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/