All-grain Curious

[mwraese]

I have brewed 5 batches from extract kits so far and have loved doing it. I am now curious about moving to all-grain brewing. I have tried looking on morebeer.com and northernbrewer.com for some direction on what kind of gear upgrades I might need. I am posting this here in the hopes of getting some outside opinions and context on this. My wife said that she would get me some gear for Christmas and I want to get the most bang for my buck.
Fight now I have a basic set-up: a few 6-gallon buckets, 5-gallon kettle, bottling and capping stuff.
I don't mind brewing all-grain from kits to get started, but I really have my eye on developing my own recipes.

 

[Jag75]

Certain things to consider. Budget, electric , propane (brewing inside vs outside) and available space .

 

[doug293cz]

The only thing you need (in addition to what you have for extract brewing) to do all grain is a fine mesh bag that fits loosely in your boil kettle. With the addition of the bag, you can do Brew In A Bag (BIAB), which is the simplest (least equipment) form of all grain brewing. If you want to try it out, you can use paint strainer bags from the hardware store. Better yet get a Wilser bag custom fit to your kettle.

With all grain brewing, partial boil, with top up in the fermenter, is not a good option as it will give you terrible efficiency. You really need the capability to do full volume boils. And, with BIAB you also need the kettle to be big enough to do the mash as well. Doing a full volume BIAB mash will require a kettle that is about 2X larger than your target batch size. So, for 5 gal BIAB batches you would want at least a 10 gal kettle. Getting a 15 gal kettle will give you the option to do the occasional 10 gal batch, if you add a sparge to your lautering process.

With your existing 5 gal kettle you could do 2.5 gal batches. This would require splitting the usual 5 gal kit in half.

Brew on

 

[fendersrule]

Jag75 raises a great point.

How much space do you WANT to consume for brewing?

For me, I want to consume as little space as possible.

So now I brew it all completely in 1 kettle...BIAB....and installed a $40 pulley system outside.

Couldn't be happier...

While some like to reserve half of a garage with at 3V brewing system.

5G Kettle is too small regardless. You will want at least a 10G vesel. I recommend 15 or 20 Gallons. Spike kettles go on clearance from time to time (scratch and dent specials) are are a good deal to look out for. My spike kettle was like, 50% off, all because it didn't have any branding on it. Score.

If you chose the BIAB route (it's really hard to not), then I heavily recommend to buy your own mill. CerealKiller is cheap. Having your own mill is required for BIAB IMO. The mill at your HBS is not optimized for BIAB.

 

[tracer bullet]

For what it's worth, you are basically making yourself what you used to get when you combined extract and water.

The short version is you soak grains in hot water, then drain and rinse. The devil is of course in the details.

The questions already asked above are very important for the recommendations to be good.

 

[mwraese]

Brew in a Bag sounds like the way to go. I have looked into that a little bit and it seems like an effective way to get the experience without a lot of the massive upgrades all at once. Thanks for the direction.

 

[fendersrule]

Yep. You can direct your wife the official BIAB people and snatch their bag and also their heavy duty pulley (good unit). to The Brew Bag-Designed for Brew In A Bag-This is your LAST brew bag!

As I eluded to before, regardless of which way you go, it's time to update your kettle. Keep an eye out for the bargain cave:
https://spikebrewing.com/collections/bargain-cave
I went for a 20 Gallon kettle. It's a beast, even though it's overkill most of the time (I mainly do 5G batches. Sometimes 10. Very seldom more, but I like having the ability to do it though!). Get kettle first, then bag.

I hang my bag setup under an awning outside. Drilled right into a stud.

 

[mwraese]

Thanks, Fenders! I have not seen Spike Brewing before but I immediately bookmarked it. I like the BIAB system and the pulley looks like a great idea. We are renting right now, so space is a bit of a premium until we buy again.

 

[Jim R]

I had the same exact questions a year ago. I read John Palmers latest edition book on homebrewing (amazon kindle edition) and I knew exactly what I needed and the different options within 1 week of learning. Reading the book is best and cheapest way to start.

 

[Coastalbrew]

You should look into an electric all in one system. They work like a BIAB system but you don't need a burner, you can brew indoors, and they just make life easier all around IMO. I have the Brewer's edge mash and boil and love it for it's simplicity, but the Anil foundry system seems to be more popular these days and has more bells and whistles for a similar price tag. Personally I didn't want all the extra complexity, which is why I got the M&B, but any of the all in one systems are worth every penny.

 

[palmtrees]

I went with Biab when I switched to all grain years ago, and I've been very happy. I also have space constraints, so that's a big factor, but I mainly love how simple it is. I feel like I can focus on dialing in other aspects of brewing, like mash temp and water chemistry, when I don't have to worry about lautering and sparging.

If I were you, I would try a few small batches to see how you feel about biab, since you only need to buy a bag to do 2.5G batches with your current setup. Then you can get a bigger kettle and pulley if you like biab want to do 5G biab batches.

I *highly* recommend the recipe kits from Bitter & Esters (an NYC homebrew shop that ships anywhere). For every single one of their recipes, they sell 5G, 2.5G, and 1G versions. Fantastic selection, and I've been very happy with the end result.

 

[deuc224]

I went straight into all grain from not knowing anything lol. I was all set to buy an expensive mill and found that if you hav e great false bottom, it really negates the need for one. YMMV

 

[fendersrule]

Meh..false bottom not needed...only if you cared to sparge.

Sparging is not necessary with BIAB. It kinda goes against the simplicity of it in the first place.

My efficiency is 73-85% depending on the grain bill without sparging. You'll need more equipment and time doing sparges....such as a lauter ton. Also two calculations for water treatment. Plus more time....

But yes if he choses to not to BIAB then we'll need to consider some of the equipment needed for the kettle.

 

[MikeCo]

I also do BIAB and it’s a great, simple, low cost, small footprint way to brew all grain. If I were just starting out today and doing 5-gallon batches or smaller, I would very likely get an all-in-one system like the Anvil Foundry. I like that it can work with 120v or 240v power and the price is very reasonable. These systems also use very little space and are portable.

 

[Coastalbrew]

If I were just starting out today and doing 5-gallon batches or smaller, I would very likely get an all-in-one system like the Anvil Foundry

There are various sized systems by anvil, grain father, and others that will allow you to brew whatever size batch you want. I primarily brew 3-5 G batches in my M&B, but Anvil has a system for 5 G and another for 10 G and grain father recently released a system that will brew 15 G (plus the one they already have for 5 G).

 

[bracconiere]

i just use a 15 gallon pot, and 10 gallon cooler with a ball valve. been using the same $40 or something cooler, and $150 polar ware pot for ~20 years, but it did collect a bit of dust when i wasn't allowed to drink.

 

[AkTom]

I got the Anvil 10.5 recently. I also got the pump kit. I love it . Small footprint, and does a great job.
A mill is another thing you’ll want soon.
If you have room... a refrigerator with a temp controller is a great way to start. You can get used fridges cheap on Craig’s List.
Of course you can spend much more money on fancy gear. Do some reading and take a shot at it.
Cheers

 

[kmarkstevens]

BIAB is a great way to start. Avoid the rookie mistake and put a cooling rack or something on the bottom of your kettle if you're heating on a stove or a gas burner to avoid burning the bad and ruining the batch.

For a couple of gallon brewpot, you can use a sous vide wand and have an instant circulating system with exact temperature control. Just make sure the wand is outside of the bag and no grains get in the wand or it with taste scorched. Absolutely great way to dial in step mashes if you like.

 

[Golddiggie]

I did the progression through most of the methods when I dove into all grain (after two batches).
Started with BIAB and that was OK for a while. I even used an aluminum kettle (modified LARGE stock pot from a restaurant supplier).
Then I built a cooler mash tun with the long (round) screen to hold back the grains when draining the mash and sparging.
That's when I also went through a couple more boil vessels. One Blichmann and then I made a keggle (still have the keggle).
Made a keggle mash tun not long after and got rid of the cooler setup.
Through most of that I used one Blichmann propane burner. First on the standard legs, then the longer ones (to gravity feed).
Started with a immersion chiller (that I made) until it just wasn't fast enough. Purchased a large (40 plate, 12" wide) plate chiller from Duda Diesel (great product) and it chills FAST with the water in New England.
When I got back into brewing earlier this year (nephew wanted to get into it), we finished the brew stand that I had started about 6 years ago. Installed the two burners, two March pumps (Chugger heads), and made a mount spot for the plate chiller. Initially I was using a plastic box with switches connecting to both pumps. After a couple of batches I tossed that and just installed some square tubing to use to mount toggle switches directly on the stand. Those are between the pumps and chiller. With the military style protective covers, I don't worry about them getting turned on by accident.
I had also bought a Barley Crusher (brand and product) to crush my grain since I got in on a group buy. That didn't pass muster, so it got replaced by a Monster Mill crusher that kicks ass (2" hardened steel rollers FTW!). This year I motorized the crusher (motor from Monster) and have it mounted to a cart that I made.
This year also saw us make a fermentation chamber since the basement temperatures were just too warm for the yeast I like. Warm as in about 20F higher than the previous year. No idea why, but we took care of that. It's now back into reasonable temperature numbers.
I also built a HLT before we started this year to make things easier. That's another keggle.

Bottom line from all that? IF you're handy you can MAKE a LOT of the gear you'll use. A lot of this is not rocket surgery too. Plenty of info out there on how to configure things and such. With a wide range of methods to get the end result. I made the sight tube/gauge on the boil keggle and am making one for the HLT before our next brew day. Having a milling machine comes in handy.

I'm thinking about changing my setup once I move (hopefully within about 9 months). Thinking of getting an electric system from Spike Brewing. Will decide when it's time as to the size and such (leaning towards the 20 gallon sized setup). I'll have to make sure the place is configured for that before buying though. Still hope that I get it not too long after moving. It's not a cheap system, but it's also not the most expensive out there either.

I would suggest getting at least one actual brewing kettle even with going BIAB. Also make sure you have a way to heat up sparge water for use once you've drained the first wort. You'll also need something to put that in while you sparge. Which is why a good number of us have a three vessel system. I still have the thin stainless 5 gallon pot I picked up to heat sparge water all those years ago. It hasn't been used in more than a few years.

 

[fendersrule]

Disagree with sparging for BIAB.

Keep it simple.

 

[RM-MN]

Brew in a Bag sounds like the way to go. I have looked into that a little bit and it seems like an effective way to get the experience without a lot of the massive upgrades all at once. Thanks for the direction.

Once you get going with BIAB you may find that there is little reason to do much upgrading. I'd even go so far as to say most of what people are suggesting as upgrades are simply a way to increase the cost and complexity of brewing and to lengthen the brew day.

BIAB is a great way to start. Avoid the rookie mistake and put a cooling rack or something on the bottom of your kettle if you're heating on a stove or a gas burner to avoid burning the bad and ruining the batch

With BIAB you can mill the grains much finer than for a conventional mash tun since you have a bag to filter and don't depend on the grain husks to form the filter. With that finer milling the conversion happens so quickly that heating the mash isn't necessary. Heat the water without the bag in the pot, turn the heat off and add the bag, then quickly stir in the grains. Put the lid on the pot and forget about it for 30 to 60 minutes.

 

[RM-MN]

Sparging is not necessary with BIAB. It kinda goes against the simplicity of it in the first place.

Sparging is not necessary with any system. It just captures the extra sugars that would otherwise be discarded. The main difference is that BIAB, with the grain milled more finely than a conventional mash tun can deal with, has such a high mash efficiency that one can capture a larger amount of the sugars. If you like the simplicity of that, don't sparge, but be aware that there is a lot of sugars still in the grain bed even if you squeeze the bag hard. A pour over sparge is pretty easy with the bag hanging over the pot to drain and costs nearly nothing. Cool water works very well for this and cools the grain some too, making disposal easier.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My wife said that she would get me some gear for Christmas and I want to get the most bang for my buck.

We are renting right now, so space is a bit of a premium until we buy again.

With your existing 5 gal kettle you could do 2.5 gal batches.

@mwraese, consider brewing 2.5 gal batches while renting and upgrade equipment after you have been in the new home for a while.

Besides a bag, here are some additional ideas: a grain mill, pH meter, digital thermometer (or maybe a ThermoWorks ChefAlarm), a small digital scale to weigh brewing salts with .1 gram accuracy.

 

[palmtrees]

@mwraeseBesides a bag, here are some additional ideas: a grain mill, pH meter, digital thermometer (or maybe a ThermoWorks ChefAlarm), a small digital scale to weigh brewing salts with .1 gram accuracy.

Those are great ideas. You can also get a refractometer that's useful for checking gravity and mash efficiency. If you want to get fancy, check out SS Brewtech's brew buckets. They're pretty and a real step up from plastic or glass.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

refractometer

Good catch - that should have been on my list - I have one and use it every brew day to measure mash/boil SG.

 

[MikeCo]

There are various sized systems by anvil, grain father, and others that will allow you to brew whatever size batch you want. I primarily brew 3-5 G batches in my M&B, but Anvil has a system for 5 G and another for 10 G and grain father recently released a system that will brew 15 G (plus the one they already have for 5 G).

The Anvil 10.5 gallon Foundry is for 5 gallon batches, and the 6.5 gallon is for 2.5 to 3 gallon batches. There are some that will do 10 gallon batches like the Grainfather system mentioned above and one of the Brewzilla models. Anything that can do a 10 gallon batch will require 240v power.

 

[Golddiggie]

Those are great ideas. You can also get a refractometer that's useful for checking gravity and mash efficiency. If you want to get fancy, check out SS Brewtech's brew buckets. They're pretty and a real step up from plastic or glass.

I shifted to using a refractometer for all my fermentations long ago. I started with a cheap one that had both brix and SG scales on it. Ended up getting ones with just brix. MUCH better. Of course good ones ain't cheap.

 

[Reneauj62]

You get what you pay for... I have learned the buy once, cry once theory...Get what you need and not what you can get by with only finding you have to upgrade in 6 months to a year...Forget BIAB period. A lot of BIAB users will scoff about what I am going to say, but, remember miserly loves company. BIAB is hokey, a pain in the ass, more expensive because you have to buy more grain (less efficient), I've seen bags tear open and then there is that mess. Then you have to have a pulley system of some sort and the beer is still then only so-so. You cannot sparge. I also tried two different Grainfathers and those won't boil wort worth a crap and they are nothing more than a modified coffee maker with no prospects of upgrades. I am selling my two Grainfathers and ordering a 10 Gallon Unibrau system with 240v and 5500w element. Life is good when things are fun, easy, and works like it should with no worries.

 

[fendersrule]

Totally going to scoff not because of your opinion, but you are factually incorrect in some of your statements.

My beer isn't "so-so"

An all-in-one electric brewing system is definitely a good idea for the OP.

I wouldn't call BIAB systems Hokey.

 

[Reneauj62]

Totally going to scoff not because of your opinion, but you are factually incorrect in some of your statements.

My beer isn't "so-so"

An all-in-one electric brewing system is definitely a good idea for the OP.

I wouldn't call BIAB systems Hokey.

Dear Mister Predicted Scoffer, some people think eating snails are great, but not for everyone. I totally stand by my CORRECT and PROVEN statements.

 

[doug293cz]

Dear Mister Predicted Scoffer, some people think eating snails are great, but not for everyone. I totally stand by my CORRECT and PROVEN statements.

Your statements are neither "correct" nor "proven." They are nothing more than your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, and others are entitled to theirs. In brewing there are usually many ways to accomplish the same task. Each brewer can make up their own mind about which methods they prefer.

Brew on

 

[deuc224]

Brewtools is considered BIAB, no regrets from my end and sparging consists of nothing that wasnt included.

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, BIAB is a fairly low cost way to get into all grain brewing. It's not the same as using an actual mash tun (whatever the mash tun is made from). Also, IME, I'm happier with the three vessel setup I have than I was with BIAB. I hit the limitations of kettle size with BIAB pretty quickly when I was doing it. Which is why I shifted to using an actual mash tun.

Everyone who starts brewing needs to figure out what works best for THEM on their own. People can advise from their own experience until the universe goes cold. Doesn't mean people will listen at that point. I would be interested in knowing how many realize, later, that those people actually knew what they were talking about.

 

[lurker18]

I went with the all in one electric system last year, Brewzilla, and wish I would have gone to it much sooner. I don't bother with presetting anything, just sit by and watch a movie or tv and wait for the timer to go off and get up and change the temps or whatever. Super simple, gets a good boil so not sure what everyone's complaint is there, and cleaning is easy. Takes up very little room, I brew in my basement, and if I want I just pick it up and move. 110 v, so plug and go. Hardest thing is setting up the cooler coil, have to unhook a water line and hook up the cooler, takes me about 2 minutes.

 

[IslandLizard]

How are you planning to heat your kettle? Brewing inside or outside? Propane or electric?

Brewing 5-5.5 gallon batches requires heating around 9 gallons of water in total, and boiling around 7 gallons down to 5.5-6 gallons.

With your current setup, using your 5 gallon kettle you can easily brew 2.5-3 gallon all-grain batches, even BIAB with some finagling, if you want to get in the swing of it, right now.
That's also around the maximum volume (4-5 gallons) that can be boiled comfortably on many stoves in the kitchen, although some will allow you to boil 7-8 gallons with the lid left on part ways, which is A-OK. Or boil concurrently in a 2nd kettle.
That way you can test which way you want to go.

You can also brew back to back to make larger 5-6 gallon batches, or maybe better, 2 different ones.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most importantly, if you like brewing, all grain is very rewarding, and worth the journey! Don't let your environment limit you, be inventive, resourceful, you'll get there.

Requirements:
(Mill) especially for BIAB
Large kettle or 2 smaller ones
Adequate heat source(s)
Chiller
The right space

 

[Reneauj62]

Your statements are neither "correct" nor "proven." They are nothing more than your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, and others are entitled to theirs. In brewing there are usually many ways to accomplish the same task. Each brewer can make up their own mind about which methods they prefer.

Brew on

That is true, its my opinion. Which is what the initial conversation was asking for...opinions. My experience is that the BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

 

[bleme]

more expensive because you have to buy more grain (less efficient),

I've gotten over 90% efficiency by draining, squeezing, sparging and squeezing again. BIAB is as efficient as you want it to be.

I've seen bags tear open and then there is that mess.

I've never had a bag tear, even with massive squeezing. Wilser bags are made to last.

Then you have to have a pulley system of some sort

Or some of us have things called muscles.

and the beer is still then only so-so.

I'm part of a very active brew club, most of them don't do BIAB yet nobody has ever considered my beer subpar. When I donate to beerfest, my club always has at least 8 beers and I am always one of the first to empty my keg.

You cannot sparge.

See #1. The fact that you put this out there as a fact is laughable.

 

[fendersrule]

That is true, its my opinion. Which is what the initial conversation was asking for...opinions. My experience is that the BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

It isn't true. Please show me double blind taste tests. Do have any empirical sources? Please explain how it's a "pain in the ass" (when actually it's the complete opposite). "Hokey" is not even a debatable topic.

You don't need to sparge because you are FINE CRUSHING your grains. That is what you CANNOT do with 3V brewing. Do you ever wonder about why you don't need to sparge with BIAB?

You know what's a pain in the ass? A stuck sparge, and carrying out, storing, and cleaning 3 separate vessels on a brew day. Oh yeah, and performing 2 separate water chemistry calculations.

You know what you are dead wrong about? "Cannot sparge" with BIAB. Even though it is not needed for great efficiency, you do realize that dunk sparging is a common BIAB sparging method, right?

 

[Snuffy]

BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

That's harsh, man. BIAB executed by someone who has their process dialed-in could be indistinguishable from beer produced by anybody, any way. Extract brew can be excellent. Not sure what your point even is here. The art of brewing is skill- not kit. Monks have brewed beer we can only imagine in wooden vats with open fermentation.

I do like the Unibrau setup. It looks like a system that has powered on beyond the design limitations of most electric brewing units. But it's expensive. And I guarantee it could brew mediocre beer without some trial and error.