AG Beers seem to lack body. Help!

[mcaple1]

Hey ya'll.

FYI, I have about 20 brews under my belt now...15 extract, 4 AG, and 1 cider. When I was brewing extract, I would always seem to be finishing very sweet and a lot of body, but with AG I have been mashing at 153 and I seem to be lacking body in my beers. For instance, I had a CIPA/BIPA that went from 1.080 to 1.020, but the mouthfeel is very "empty"

Any ideas. It seems that with a beer like my CIPA/BIPA, and with all the specialty malts, the mouthfeel and body should be much more heavy...also with the moderate mash temp.

 

[Yooper]

I'm assuming your thermometer is accurate, but I'm surprised that a beer mashed at 153 would finish at 1.020. I'd double check the accuracy of the thermometer.

Otherwise, the best thing to do now is to analyze your recipe. Can you post a typical recipe.

 

[waldoar15]

Maybe your thermometer is off a bit. Had to say without seeing the grain bill and such.

Doh! She always beats me to it.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Or just mash at 156 using the same thermometer and see/taste if it is improved! Seriously I used a mercury thermometer for my mashes until it broke, got me a digital one and the same mas temps had wildly different tastes from my previous so I just adjusted. It took maybe 3 batches before my mash temps resulted in predictable beer.

FWIW and YMMV of course!

 

[mcaple1]

I am using a thermometer, and since I know you have one Yooper, you should back me up that the temps are legit. Here is the recipe:

Grains: (Single Infusion Mash @152 for 60 min; Sparge @ 170 for 15 min; 66% Eff)
14.5 lbs Colorado Pale Malt (2 Row)
1.25 lbs Munich Malt
10.0 oz Carapils
10.0 oz Crystal 80L
5.0 oz Midnight Malt
5.0 oz Carafa II (Dehusked)
Extract:
None
Other Fermentables:
None
Hops:
81.5 IBU
1 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 60 Minutes)
0.5 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 30 Minutes)
0.5 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 15 Minutes)
0.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA (Boil 15 Minutes)
1.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA (Flame Out)
Dry Hop: (After 2 Weeks Primary Fermentation)
1.5 oz Summit 18% AA

 

[mcaple1]

Perhaps it's my water then...but I'm not sure. Even with my imperial IPA, I get a lot of bittering out of my beers, and the body is just really missing. This CIPA tastes like extremely bitter water on the front end, and on the way down it gets better with the roasted grain bill.

 

[Airborneguy]

What Yooper meant was to check the accuracy of your thermometer. They are frequently off, sometimes by a lot. My dial thermo was off by 6 degrees when I first calibrated it. That much off gives you a completely different beer. If you don't know how to do it, it's real easy, let me know.

 

[mcaple1]

Oh dammit...sorry everyone. I meant to write THERMAPEN...NOT THERMOMETER. I am using a thermapen, which Yoops will attest is a quality tool that is calibrated before purchase.

 

[Airborneguy]

How are you checking your mash temps with it? There can be big differences between the temp at the top and down in the middle/bottom. I like a nice long probe thermometer to get accurate mash temps.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Three things I'd try: 1. add some calcium chloride to the boil, 2. up the mash temp to 154-6, 3. lower the overall IBUs and or adjust hops schedule to have less bittering additions and more late additions.

If you have never tried brewing the same beer twice changing one variable you'll find it very educational.

 

[mcaple1]

Yes, the mash temp is taken in the middle of the"mash mush" for lack of a more technical term coming to mind. I'm thinking about mashing a bit higher anyway, but I would think that 152-153 would be high enough to produce some amount of unfermentable sugars from the base malt. The thermapen has a nice long probe on it...about 6 inches I believe, which is good enough for my mash tun size.

 

[mcaple1]

Or perhaps I just am expecting a more fuller bodied beer when in fact it is and I'm just being too hard on my homebrew. I really don't think so because like I said, it feels/tastes like bitter water for a first impression. Not a bad malt taste, just very thin. Perhaps my water has something to do with it...I am using "Wal-Mart Drinking water with minerals added for flavor".

 

[mcaple1]

Three things I'd try: 1. add some calcium chloride to the boil, 2. up the mash temp to 154-6, 3. lower the overall IBUs and or adjust hops schedule to have less bittering additions and more late additions.

If you have never tried brewing the same beer twice changing one variable you'll find it very educational.

Isn't calcium chloride something you add to the strike water...what does it do for you in the boil.

 

[Airborneguy]

Personal taste is hard to judge in situations likes these. It very well could be your tastes. I agree on trying the water additions.

 

[pm5k00]

Try adding .5-1 lbs flaked barley to your recipes for a fuller mouthfell.

 

[ziggy13]

Three things I'd try: 1. add some calcium chloride to the boil, 2. up the mash temp to 154-6, 3. lower the overall IBUs and or adjust hops schedule to have less bittering additions and more late additions.

If you have never tried brewing the same beer twice changing one variable you'll find it very educational.

@Steve, I am curious how lowering the overall IBU's would result in a fuller bodied beer? Am I correct to assume the bitterness could be affecting the perception of the body?

@mcaple1, I'm no expert on water or brewing but I would be concerned about what type of minerals Wal-Mart is adding to the water you're using. Maybe try using water without anything added to it? I use water from a natural spring in the mountains near my house and have created some pretty thick beers. Also, if I was you I would calibrate the Thermapen just to make sure. It only takes a minute. I know it's a quality device, but without actually calibrating it yourself you can't be sure.

 

[waldoar15]

When I was brewing extract, I would always seem to be finishing very sweet

Steve is probably correct. You're expecting sweet. Try lowering the IBU's on that recipe a bit. If it's finishing @ 1.020,the body is probably there.

 

[TopherM]

You could add Carapils or DME (3-5% of your total grain bill) to your recipes to add body without changing the flavor.

Mash at 158 instead of 153, always do a 10-15 minute mashout at 170.

Double crush/mill your grains (might have to use some rice hulls to prevent stuck sparge, depending on your equipment).

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'd look at the water first and foremost. You say you use store-bought drinking water. Is there a way (perhaps online) to find the chemical composition of the water?

But let's go the opposite direction here... What if the problem isn't the mash or the water?

What's your fermentation temperature control situation? Are you making a starter? I've often found that underpitching, pitching hot and fermenting a bit warm tend to rob the beer of that body and mouthfeel. If you were brewing many of your other batches during the fall and winter, and these last 4 AG beers were during the summer, perhaps you're fermenting them warmer than previously?

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

What's your water/grain ratio during the Mash? That can have an effect on body as well.

 

[jds]

Perhaps it's my water then...but I'm not sure. Even with my imperial IPA, I get a lot of bittering out of my beers, and the body is just really missing. This CIPA tastes like extremely bitter water on the front end, and on the way down it gets better with the roasted grain bill.

Since you're a CO guy, I'd suggest finding out your water chemistry. Even if it's grocery store water, that's often just filtered tapwater from wherever it's bottled at. I know my Front Range water (Denver water, Marston Res.) is fairly high in sulfate, which accentuates hop bitterness over malt flavors. For beers I want to be malty, I counteract with about 2-2.5 g of pickling salt in the boil. The increased chlorides give back some of the malt flavors.

Given that the beer's finishing at 1.020 (assuming your hydrometer's accurate), I think there's probably plenty of body. Try this: Pull a beer you're unhappy with, and add a pinch of salt to it. Let the salt dissolve, then taste. If you find that the malt flavors are improved, then consider adding a small amount of salt to your water when you brew.

Keep in mind, just adding salts of any kind willy-nilly to your brew can do strange stuff to it. The best bet is to find out the water chemistry, then use any of the widely-available spreadsheets or programs to calculate salt additions.

 

[mcaple1]

You could add Carapils or DME (3-5% of your total grain bill) to your recipes to add body without changing the flavor.

Mash at 158 instead of 153, always do a 10-15 minute mashout at 170.

Double crush/mill your grains (might have to use some rice hulls to prevent stuck sparge, depending on your equipment).

Yep...had 10 oz of Carapils in the bill. Here it is again for anyone that missed it.


Grains: (Single Infusion Mash @152 for 60 min; Sparge @ 170 for 15 min; 66% Eff)
14.5 lbs Colorado Pale Malt (2 Row)
1.25 lbs Munich Malt
10.0 oz Carapils
10.0 oz Crystal 80L
5.0 oz Midnight Malt
5.0 oz Carafa II (Dehusked)
Extract:
None
Other Fermentables:
None
Hops:
81.5 IBU
1 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 60 Minutes)
0.5 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 30 Minutes)
0.5 oz Summit 18% AA (Boil 15 Minutes)
0.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA (Boil 15 Minutes)
1.5 oz Amarillo 8.6% AA (Flame Out)
Dry Hop: (After 2 Weeks Primary Fermentation)
1.5 oz Summit 18% AA

OG 1.080 FG 1.020 Mashed at 152/3 for 60 min and 15 min mash out at 170.

 

[RustyZymurgy]

Maltodextrin.

 

[mrbobble]

Plus 1 on what JDS said. I had the exact same problem dude. I went nuts in every direction getting a mill, PH meter, all sorts of Blichmann related gear, a thermapen, playing with recipes and grains before I spent the measly 16 bones and got my water analyzed by Ward labs. Holy crap. Knowing my water and being able to adjust for it made the most difference out of anything I had done previously. Amazing difference. Makes sense right? It's what comprises 90% of beer.
Do it! It's one of the cheapest most significant thing you can do to improve your beer.