Advice: WLP644 Saccharomyces "Bruxellensis" Trois

[Calder]

Going to be using this yeast in a few weeks. I have a ton of hoppy beers going, and am getting tired of them. I have several dark beers for the holidays (Stout, Robust Porter, and fruit and coffee variations of Porters). Want to brew something different, easy drinking and refreshing.

I have a vial of WLP644, Sacc 'Brett Trois' yeast, that I would like to use. Am thinking of doing a simple Farmhouse Ale with it. I have never used it and would like too have any input to help create the beer.

Pilsner/2-Row (whatever I have) - 80%
Table Sugar - 15%
Aromatic - 5%
Mash low (~148 F)

Probably go to about 1.055 (end about 1.005 for ~6.5%+ abv)

Hop to 30 IBUs
Maybe an ounce of Goldings at 5 minutes.

Is this yeast fine with no hops?
What temp should I run the fermentation at?
How does this yeast go with other hops (Amarillo, Mosaic, Simcoe, etc), or does it just get too busy?

Any other advice ..... even ...... this is completely wrong!

 

[homebrew212]

Use fruity hops like Amarillo, Citra, Galaxy, et al with this yeast, it really brings out those hops. Don't waste this yeast with no hops.

 

[snowveil]

Agreed. This yeast isn't really suited to traditional farmhouse style beers.

WLP644 was originally thought to be Brettanomyces due to it's odd behavior (flocculation, flavor profile, ability to form a pellicle, etc) but through DNA sequencing was later revealed to be Sacchromyces.

I've only used it once but was very pleased with the results. The recipe I used was:

For 5 Gallons:

Sequence Session IPA

9lb Briess 2 row
1lb Dingemans Biscuit
8oz Carapils

RO Water treated with 6g Gypsum in the mash

Mash at 155 for 1 hour using full volume BIAB mash

Prebiol Gravity 1.039, Preboil Volume 6.8 Gal.

Hop Schedule:

FWH .5oz Warrior 15.7AA
30 min .5oz Citra 13.4AA
Hopstand 1oz Apollo 17.8AA
Hopstand 1oz Citra 17.8AA
Hopstand 1oz EXP5256 11.7AA

(Hopstand was done at 165*F for 30 minutes)

Dry hop 1oz Apollo
Dry hop 1oz Citra
Dry hop 1o EXP5256

(EXP5256 has since been renamed Eureka!, and was also once known as "Pinefruit")

Ferment at 68*F with WLP644 "brett" trois.

OG 1.049, FG 1.011, ~45IBU, 5.0%ABV

The recipe turned out fantastic and didn't last long. The beer was bright and tropical.

A few notes about my experience with this yeast...

When I used WLP644 it was still being sold as Brettanomyces, so the cell count in the vial was low compared to a typical Sacch vial, along the lines of ~35 billion cells instead the typical 100 billion cells. If you've only got a dusting of yeast on the bottom of your vial, you'll want to make a step starter to get the cell count up to where you need it. www.yeastcalculator.com will help you calculate your needs.

This yeast also took a while to flocc out compared to typical Sacch strains. It had a very "wispy" looking fermentation...it was just a bit weird looking from what I'm used to seeing.

Also, I'm not sure if this is just my case, but the brightness of this beer seemed to drop out pretty quickly. I'm not sure if it's a case of the hops dropping out or the yeast character changing, but this beer was stellar when young (kegged at 16 days, drinking at 23) and started to slowly decline after that. The beer didn't get "bad" or anything, it just seemed to fade out faster than most of my IPAs would.

 

[specharka]

I would not use sugars or aromatic malt. Simple sugars will dry out the beer too much. In my farmhouse ales, I stick to 60-80% Pils, 20-30% flaked wheat, and 0-10% Munich/Vienna for body and some (not much) residual sweetness.

Depending on how much brett character you want, you can mash high and give the bugs something to chew on for a while. Brett does not mind hops, but I would keep any additions under 30 IBU. You could use something fruity (Galena, Mosaic, Citra, Amarillo, etc) at flameout to accentuate the mango/pineapple notes more.

Unlike other farmhouse blends, you want to keep this one under 75F for the duration of its fermentation. Brett does some weird stuff around 80, producing bubblegum and solventy flavors, and theres no guess as to whether it will clean up after itself.

Hope this helps!

 

[Calder]

Agreed. This yeast isn't really suited to traditional farmhouse style beers.

WLP644 was originally thought to be Brettanomyces due to it's odd behavior (flocculation, flavor profile, ability to form a pellicle, etc) but through DNA sequencing was later revealed to be Sacchromyces.


A few notes about my experience with this yeast...

When I used WLP644 it was still being sold as Brettanomyces, so the cell count in the vial was low compared to a typical Sacch vial, along the lines of ~35 billion cells instead the typical 100 billion cells. If you've only got a dusting of yeast on the bottom of your vial, you'll want to make a step starter to get the cell count up to where you need it. www.yeastcalculator.com will help you calculate your needs.

This yeast also took a while to flocc out compared to typical Sacch strains. It had a very "wispy" looking fermentation...it was just a bit weird looking from what I'm used to seeing.

I am aware that it is a sacc strain, but it is an unusual sacc strain. I will be harvesting and re-using it several times, but wanting too start with something good. I always make starters ffor new liquid yeasts.

I might use some Amarillo. I have a pound in the freezer, and not used any this year. It has been more of a Simcoe/Citra//Chinook year for me.

I would not use sugars or aromatic malt. Simple sugars will dry out the beer too much. In my farmhouse ales, I stick to 60-80% Pils, 20-30% flaked wheat, and 0-10% Munich/Vienna for body and some (not much) residual sweetness.

Depending on how much brett character you want, you can mash high and give the bugs something to chew on for a while. Brett does not mind hops, but I would keep any additions under 30 IBU. You could use something fruity (Galena, Mosaic, Citra, Amarillo, etc) at flameout to accentuate the mango/pineapple notes more.

Unlike other farmhouse blends, you want to keep this one under 75F for the duration of its fermentation. Brett does some weird stuff around 80, producing bubblegum and solventy flavors, and theres no guess as to whether it will clean up after itself.

This is not Brett, and as far as I am aware does not give you any 'Brett character', however, I have not used this strain before.

My plan to use the sugar is to make it dry out and end low, like typical Belgians. Easy drinking.

 

[specharka]

This is not Brett, and as far as I am aware does not give you any 'Brett character', however, I have not used this strain before.



My plan to use the sugar is to make it dry out and end low, like typical Belgians. Easy drinking.

It's called "Brett Trois" and it's got brettanomyces bruxellensis in it. What did you think it was made with?

 

[PeteNMA]

It's called "Brett Trois" and it's got brettanomyces bruxellensis in it. What did you think it was made with?

No it doesn't

http://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/644_Explanation.pdf

 

[snowveil]

No it doesn't

http://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/644_Explanation.pdf

Correct, there is no Brett in this strain. This is a single strain that was *thought* to be Brett, but was later revealed to be Sacch.

When I mentioned making a starter, I wasn't referring to *just* making a simple starter like you would with a typical Sacch vial. They used to package this strain like other Brett strains with only ~35 billion cells (high estimate) instead of 100 billion cells. I'm not sure if they're still packaging with such a low cell count or not since it's been renamed. If it's still a low cell count, a simple 2L starter won't give you the cell count you need like with most other ale yeasts.

Also, keep in mind that this strain won't attenuate quite the same as Brett strains. I had a pretty simple grain bill in my recipe and it only went from 1.049 down to 1.011 (77% attenuation, which is still pretty good but not out of the ordinary for typical american ale yeasts). Some sugar might dry it out but don't expect Saison-like attenuation out of this yeast.

 

[Rootski]

I did a "farmhouse" with this strain that turned out really well. If I recall it was:
70% 2 row
15% flaked corn
15% wheat

Hopped to about 25 ibu and threw in some Mosaic at the end of the boil.

I co-pitched an active starter of WLP644 with WY3711 (no starter) and I would recommend co-pitching if you want it to be farmhousey.

 

[wmcc75]

I used this yeast once and was very fond of it. I would suggest using some fruity hops as they play well with this yeast. I fermented warm like up into the 80s warm and it was amazing. I don't have my notes with me but I'm pretty sure I used Amarillo hops.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I've used this yeast a bunch of times. Yeah, we used to think it was Brett. It doesn't have any Brett notes, *no* funk, in my experience, but it absolutely has a totally unique fruitiness that plays extremely well with "New World" hops. I've had good success with a variety of grain bills but with many beers I've used a bit of flaked wheat and flaked oats and had a nice, creamy mouthfeel with this yeast.

The yeast is sort of a super attenuator. I would second ditching the sugar. Just not necessary with this yeast and might overly dry and thin the beer out.

I quickly found six beers I made with this yeast and the attenuation percentages were like so: 86%, 84%, 81%, 85%, 90%, 89%.

I've made some nice single hop beers with this yeast with Galaxy and Equinox and have used various blends with Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Chinook, Simcoe, Apollo, El Dorado, Equinox and Citra, all of which play well with this yeast.

I generally pitch it in the mid to upper 60s and let it rise into the upper 60s to very low 70s. Not really necessary to go too hot here, IMHO.

With these, I have left them all in primary for about 7 weeks, then keg or bottle. In bottles, it carbs up quick. At bottling or kegging, it's still milky and doesn't really like to drop out. In the bottle or keg it drops but I haven't gotten a super clear beer with it.

It's fantastic.

I'll be using it yet again this upcoming weekend for a rye IPA. I have used rye with it before, and special B for a hoppy rye amber and that worked great. So now I'll try rye again.

The packaging visually can be seen to still contain a very small amount of yeast, which sort of pisses me off. This is not Brett and White Labs knows it's not Brett and yet they still package it like it's Brett with that different label and basically charge us way too much money for giving us a tiny amount of yeast. It's my experience that most people use this for the primary yeast in a fermentation. They should increase the bloody cell count so we don't have to make a 3 step starter over two weeks. That would rock. I had a new vial for this starter and you can see that there's still only a tiny amount of yeast in there. Oh well. It's still an amazing yeast.

Enjoy fermenting with it! Cheers!

 

[snowveil]

I've used this yeast a bunch of times. Yeah, we used to think it was Brett. It doesn't have any Brett notes, *no* funk, in my experience, but it absolutely has a totally unique fruitiness that plays extremely well with "New World" hops. I've had good success with a variety of grain bills but with many beers I've used a bit of flaked wheat and flaked oats and had a nice, creamy mouthfeel with this yeast.

The yeast is sort of a super attenuator. I would second ditching the sugar. Just not necessary with this yeast and might overly dry and thin the beer out.

I quickly found six beers I made with this yeast and the attenuation percentages were like so: 86%, 84%, 81%, 85%, 90%, 89%.

I've made some nice single hop beers with this yeast with Galaxy and Equinox and have used various blends with Galaxy, Nelson Sauvin, Chinook, Simcoe, Apollo, El Dorado, Equinox and Citra, all of which play well with this yeast.

I generally pitch it in the mid to upper 60s and let it rise into the upper 60s to very low 70s. Not really necessary to go too hot here, IMHO.

With these, I have left them all in primary for about 7 weeks, then keg or bottle. In bottles, it carbs up quick. At bottling or kegging, it's still milky and doesn't really like to drop out. In the bottle or keg it drops but I haven't gotten a super clear beer with it.

It's fantastic.

I'll be using it yet again this upcoming weekend for a rye IPA. I have used rye with it before, and special B for a hoppy rye amber and that worked great. So now I'll try rye again.

The packaging visually can be seen to still contain a very small amount of yeast, which sort of pisses me off. This is not Brett and White Labs knows it's not Brett and yet they still package it like it's Brett with that different label and basically charge us way too much money for giving us a tiny amount of yeast. It's my experience that most people use this for the primary yeast in a fermentation. They should increase the bloody cell count so we don't have to make a 3 step starter over two weeks. That would rock. I had a new vial for this starter and you can see that there's still only a tiny amount of yeast in there. Oh well. It's still an amazing yeast.

Enjoy fermenting with it! Cheers!

Excellent write up, thanks!

Do you rinse this yeast when you use it? I'm considering bringing it back into rotation with my IPA recipes instead of sticking with WLP001 all of the time. It'd also be interesting to experiment with yeast in some more fruity/earthy saison blends as well.

Have you experienced a quick drop off with the fruity flavors like I did, or could have that just been my isolated case? My beer didn't go "bad" or anything, but the first week out of the fermenter the beer just punched you in the nose with fruit...and 3 weeks later it dulled down a lot.

Thanks!

 

[emsroth]

The two times I brewed with it was for a party so the keg kicked quickly. I have settled on it for my house IPA and I have a keg going on for a week or two now. I've actually found it has livened up after some cold conditioning.

I had an old can of Imperial A20 (citrus) so for the starter I threw it into some extra Saison Wort. It is definitely a boring yeast without a heavy dose of hops. It had a nice taste like a brewpub blonde, but just boring.

I found this thread because I'm curious about using it in dark beers. Perhaps an amber, brown, or stout? I have a CDA/Black IPA in about a month, so I'll probably split the batch between Imperial A20 and Imperial A31 (WLP028). Mash at 150 and see where it goes.

 

[bolus14]

Little bit of a thread revival. I've been looking for a blueberry ale, whether saison, wheat, pale, really doesn't matter much to me but haven't had much luck finding a promising recipe. Now stumbling on this I'm wondering if going with a straight forward saison recipe, then use a good amount of Motueka hops at flameout and whirlpool and then secondary on blueberry puree and some motueka dry hops.

If the yeast acts like i'd want it would give some tartness to help the blueberry come out and the Motueka would give lemon/lime citrus to hopefully be like a lemon blueberry ale...

Any thoughts?

 

[emsroth]

The yeast is kind of boring, but also quite characterful. Almost like a guitar virtuoso: it needs the band to back it up.

The yeast finishes clean almost like an American ale yeast, but with some dry 85% AA) and fruity notes. Think of it less like a saison and more like a mild Belgian yeast. So depending on what you want out of the beer it might not be a good option

White labs WLP585 plays very will with both fruit and hops. It would make a great tart blueberry beer

 

[bolus14]

I'll look into 585. The beer I'm thinking of is more for the wife and a couple friends who aren't real affocianados, so it doesn't need to be complex. They steer away from bitter and like fruity light beers and sweet chocolatey stouts and porters.

The mild Belgian description seems in my wheelhouse though. Might have to use it for a saison or tripel shortly.

 

[emsroth]

It gets 80-85% AA reliably, and even higher with simple sugar additions. Ferment it warm 75-80 F

 

[brewmeister13]

I found this thread because I'm curious about using it in dark beers. Perhaps an amber, brown, or stout? I have a CDA/Black IPA in about a month, so I'll probably split the batch between Imperial A20 and Imperial A31 (WLP028). Mash at 150 and see where it goes.

I haven't gone too dark with it, but in a hoppy amber or red IPA I brewed, I didn't care for it. Perhaps it will work better with a touch of roasted malt, but it put me off trying it on darker beers.

The yeast finishes clean almost like an American ale yeast, but with some dry 85% AA) and fruity notes.

This is completely dependent on fermentation temperatures. Fermented at ale temps it tends to be really clean, like you describe, but as you push it a bit higher the tropical fruit really comes out. I get loads of pineapple and mango from mine fermented in the upper 70's. I also add 1mL of lactic acid per gal at the end of the boil. I'm not sure if it actually metabolizes lactic acid into ethyl lactate like many brett strains do or not, but my results have been stellar with it. My controlled experiment to verify the usage of lactic had some issues and I found it easier to just add lactic to batches than go through another batch spilt 3 ways to see for sure.

Unlike other farmhouse blends, you want to keep this one under 75F for the duration of its fermentation. Brett does some weird stuff around 80, producing bubblegum and solventy flavors, and theres no guess as to whether it will clean up after itself.

As touched on earlier, I would consider this as one of those "your milage may vary" things. I've had good results letting this one get a little warmer, especially at the end of fermentation. Plus, here is a blog post from one of my friends who told a silver medal last year at NHC with a beer he fermented at 80F http://brewingadobe.blogspot.com/2016/08/

 

[Gustatorian]

Bit of a thread revival.

I'm using 644 in a pale double dry-hopped with citra and galaxy. I usually double dry-hop my pales/IPAs on day 3 and day 7 when fermenting with Wyeast 1318 (really based on gravity readings- attempt to hop charge when fermentation is about half way through and do a final charge with 1-2 points left before FG).

I already did one dry hop charge about 30 hours after pitching the yeast bc my gravity is already at approximately 1.026 (from 1.052). Any suggestions for the final dry-hop? Does this yeast drag out those final few points or should I go ahead and do the final dry-hop within the next couple days?

 

[emsroth]

This yeast is pretty standard in time frames. I pitched Monday afternoon and Friday afternoon I was one point above final gravity. This afternoon (Saturday) the beer started to taste like beer.

This is a delicious yeast it it NEEDS dry hops to taste good. I tried to make a heavily hopped blond ale, and it fell flat. Dry hopped it and it popped. Even only 2 ounces added a lot.

 

[Gustatorian]

This yeast is pretty standard in time frames. I pitched Monday afternoon and Friday afternoon I was one point above final gravity. This afternoon (Saturday) the beer started to taste like beer.

This is a delicious yeast it it NEEDS dry hops to taste good. I tried to make a heavily hopped blond ale, and it fell flat. Dry hopped it and it popped. Even only 2 ounces added a lot.

Sounds awesome! Care to share the recipe? What day(s) do you usually dry hop?

 

[emsroth]

House IPA - I'm planning on playing now with an addition of Willamette late in the boil
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/425074/homestead

Blonde ale - I had to add dry hops to bring out the flavor
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/477124/verne

But really, any NEIPA recipe with dry hops works well.

This yeast also tastes better in suspension. When the beer clears it tastes almost like the Anchor yeast (WLP051, etc), but that takes a month of settling or more.

 

[emsroth]

I'm not a hop head or hop fiend, so dry hop timing means less to me than others. I dry hop when it is close to finished fermentation to ensure oxygen is scrubbed. Then it sits for 3-10 days depending on when I get around to kegging. Always closed loop transfer into purged keg.

 

[Juno_Malone]

So, I'm a little unclear here...is WLP644 "safe" to use with plastic equipment (carboy/siphon/lines/bottling bucket) without fear of contaminating future batches, as it's 100% Sacc(?)?

 

[brewmeister13]

There is a brewery local to myself that has no problem using that strain on their clean equipment, but would never use Brett on it. The real question is, can a small population of 644 lend a noticeable effect on another beer? So far, I haven't noticed it.

 

[Hopping4Hops]

I have a Neipa fermenting with WLP644 and WY1318. I'm worried about bottle bombs, because of the glucoamylase enzyme and dextrins being eaten during bottle conditioning. Does it eat out dextrins fast during primary fermentation, does it take its time to finish the primary leaving nothing behind, does it eat dextrins slowly over time (which could cause bottle bombs), or does it just eat a few and shy away from the rest?

 

[emsroth]

I have a Neipa fermenting with WLP644 and WY1318. I'm worried about bottle bombs, because of the glucoamylase enzyme and dextrins being eaten during bottle conditioning. Does it eat out dextrins fast during primary fermentation, does it take its time to finish the primary leaving nothing behind, does it eat dextrins slowly over time (which could cause bottle bombs), or does it just eat a few and shy away from the rest?

I have never bottle conditioned with this yeast, but the yeast reaches 85%+ attenuation within 7 days.

You can do as always do, split the bottles into low, medium, and high carbonation amounts.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I have never bottle conditioned with this yeast, but the yeast reaches 85%+ attenuation within 7 days.

You can do as always do, split the bottles into low, medium, and high carbonation amounts.

My current batch in primary still hasn’t hit FG in 14 days so I must disagree with your 7 day window.

This yeast won’t create bottle bombs if you allow it to ferment out to completion.

 

[emsroth]

I guess I should clarify I use the Imperial Yeast/Omega Yeast equivalent, and I pitch like an ale and use extra oxygen. Aim for 1.0 M/mL/P for up to 1.060 OG, 1.5 M/mL/P for 1.060+