Advice for tweaking my NEIPA grist

[TravelingLight]

After my first attempt at an NEIPA was solid but not exactly what I wanted, I'm giving it another shot trying to dial it in and need a recipe critique. My last one was lacking in head retention and was a tad darker than I wanted. I've got my hop schedule pretty much dialed in, so I just need a grist check. Here's what I am looking at right now...

10# 2-Row (67%)
2.5# Flaked Wheat (17%)
1.5# Flaked Oats (10%)
1# White Wheat (6%)

 

[DaWhip]

Playing with the BF calculator on this recipe, it looks like it would be tough to get it much lighter colored with that grain bill unless you drop in OG too. Maybe replace some oats for more wheat? May not be noticeable with color, but may help with the head a touch? From what I have read, but not tried personally yet, maybe drop a little of the oats and replace with a little barley (<5%) to help the head. That being said, I'd try a little higher mash temp before messing with the grain bill if you like the flavor you have.

I'm really speaking from little experience in this regard, just playing with the recipe builder as I am trying to achieve some similar changes myself for a brew. Hopefully that kickstarts the thread for you at least, I'm interested to see other's input.

 

[cegan09]

In my recipes i usually use a mix of flaked oats and flaked barely, never flaked wheat. However I'll use normal wheat malt. I also like the suggestion from other threads about 2% honey malt. My base grain is usually a between a 60:40, or 50:50 split of 2-row and either marris otter or golden promise.

The color is likely oxidation. I've had a few batches go dark/brown on me thanks to not being as careful as I could. For whatever reason these styles are super picky about it.

 

[TravelingLight]

Playing with the BF calculator on this recipe, it looks like it would be tough to get it much lighter colored with that grain bill unless you drop in OG too. Maybe replace some oats for more wheat? May not be noticeable with color, but may help with the head a touch? From what I have read, but not tried personally yet, maybe drop a little of the oats and replace with a little barley (<5%) to help the head. That being said, I'd try a little higher mash temp before messing with the grain bill if you like the flavor you have.

I'm really speaking from little experience in this regard, just playing with the recipe builder as I am trying to achieve some similar changes myself for a brew. Hopefully that kickstarts the thread for you at least, I'm interested to see other's input.

Thanks for the advice. The first one was mashed at 152. I'm planning on mashing this at 154. I considered possibly flip flopping the amounts of flaked wheat and flaked oats. Hadn't thought about barley though. Good idea.

In my recipes i usually use a mix of flaked oats and flaked barely, never flaked wheat. However I'll use normal wheat malt. I also like the suggestion from other threads about 2% honey malt. My base grain is usually a between a 60:40, or 50:50 split of 2-row and either marris otter or golden promise.

The color is likely oxidation. I've had a few batches go dark/brown on me thanks to not being as careful as I could. For whatever reason these styles are super picky about it.

Side bar (and stupid question): when you say "wheat malt," are you referring to white wheat? The last one had a half pound of honey malt and I'm convinced that's what made it darker than I wanted. I highly doubt it's oxidation as I try my damndest to prevent that (closed pressure transfers, CO2 purges, etc.). But I suppose anything is possible. Do you use those base grains (and ratios) for NEIPAs?

Finally, FWIW, I didn't do any water adjustments on the last one. But this next one I'm building up RO water and should have that dialed in so that will help some as well. Thanks y'all.

 

[Johow]

What is your batch size? As a 5.5 gallons this is a bit higher than 8%. I agree with reducing the abv to get a little lighter color and an easier drinking beer...ymmv.

 

[cegan09]

Side bar (and stupid question): when you say "wheat malt," are you referring to white wheat? The last one had a half pound of honey malt and I'm convinced that's what made it darker than I wanted. I highly doubt it's oxidation as I try my damndest to prevent that (closed pressure transfers, CO2 purges, etc.). But I suppose anything is possible. Do you use those base grains (and ratios) for NEIPAs?

Finally, FWIW, I didn't do any water adjustments on the last one. But this next one I'm building up RO water and should have that dialed in so that will help some as well. Thanks y'all.

Yes, I meant white wheat. Sometimes I derp.

My batches fairly closely follow braufessor's from his north east IPA thread.
44% 2-row
37% golden promise
5.6% flaked barley
5.6% flaked oats
3.7% honey malt
3.7% white wheat

I scaled some things which is why those percents are a little weird. next time I make one I plan on upping the flaked grains to 20% total.

I build my water from distilled. I aim for his suggestions of
Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 128
Bicarbonate = 70

 

[Yooper]

My last NE APA (but hopped like an IPA) was 13.5% flaked oats, and the rest pale malt. I'm drinking it right now, as a matter of fact. I've got nice head retention and lacing. The SRM according to Beersmith is 3.6, and it seems about right. The OG is 1.053, and the IBUs are 65, so it could be the hops oils helping the head retention as well.



Sorry for the sideways photo- I updated my phone's iOS and can't seem to get it to work right now. Darn!

Anyway, I'd increase the oats if anything, and reduce or eliminate the flaked wheat. With the wheat malt and hops, you should have crazy good head retention. What was the original recipe you are modifying?

 

[TravelingLight]

What is your batch size? As a 5.5 gallons this is a bit higher than 8%. I agree with reducing the abv to get a little lighter color and an easier drinking beer...ymmv.

Typically, I shoot for ~7.5 gal. pre-boil volume, with ~6 gal. going into the carboy. At least this is my usual practice with hoppy beers when I know I'm going to lose some volume to trub/hops.

Yes, I meant white wheat. Sometimes I derp.

My batches fairly closely follow braufessor's from his north east IPA thread.
44% 2-row
37% golden promise
5.6% flaked barley
5.6% flaked oats
3.7% honey malt
3.7% white wheat

I scaled some things which is why those percents are a little weird. next time I make one I plan on upping the flaked grains to 20% total.

I build my water from distilled. I aim for his suggestions of
Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 128
Bicarbonate = 70

That's pretty much the same water profile I'm going with. I'm building up from RO water since I don't have a current/accurate water report. Just picked up my gypsum, lactic, and CaCl yesterday.

My last NE APA (but hopped like an IPA) was 13.5% flaked oats, and the rest pale malt. I'm drinking it right now, as a matter of fact. I've got nice head retention and lacing. The SRM according to Beersmith is 3.6, and it seems about right. The OG is 1.053, and the IBUs are 65, so it could be the hops oils helping the head retention as well.

Anyway, I'd increase the oats if anything, and reduce or eliminate the flaked wheat. With the wheat malt and hops, you should have crazy good head retention. What was the original recipe you are modifying?

I've gotten similar advice from some other people. So I'm strongly considering upping the flaked oats, dropping the flaked wheat, and keeping the wheat malt. I just can't decide if I should basically flip flop the flaked oats and flaked wheat, or drop the flaked wheat entirely?

 

[Yooper]

I've gotten similar advice from some other people. So I'm strongly considering upping the flaked oats, dropping the flaked wheat, and keeping the wheat malt. I just can't decide if I should basically flip flop the flaked oats and flaked wheat, or drop the flaked wheat entirely?

I'd probably drop the flaked wheat- it's not "doing" anything for you that the wheat malt won't. You could increase the wheat malt, and up the oats, and that would be great.

I was just drinking a Treehouse Julius last week, and think there is some cara- malt in there, but not honey malt. My preference is a bit "cleaner", and I didn't add any caramalts in my grist. I like simplicity in these style beers, as then the juicy/citrusy/fruity hops really shine.

 

[philipCT]

...and where does a person living in Michigan get a Julius?

 

[TravelingLight]

I'd probably drop the flaked wheat- it's not "doing" anything for you that the wheat malt won't. You could increase the wheat malt, and up the oats, and that would be great.

I was just drinking a Treehouse Julius last week, and think there is some cara- malt in there, but not honey malt. My preference is a bit "cleaner", and I didn't add any caramalts in my grist. I like simplicity in these style beers, as then the juicy/citrusy/fruity hops really shine.

Thanks, Yoop. I think I'll do just that. Now I need to go in and change my water additions and such. I feel so stupid trying to work the Bru'n Water spreadsheet.

ETA: Tweaking some and now looking at...
11# 76% 2-Row (76%)
2# 14% Flaked Oats (14%)
1.5# White Wheat (10%)

Thoughts?

 

[Yooper]

...and where does a person living in Michigan get a Julius?

I happened to be at a Homebrewtalk get-together in Boston, and a good friend from this forum brought one to drink there and one to bring home to share with Bob. In other words, I know people.

Thanks, Yoop. I think I'll do just that. Now I need to go in and change my water additions and such. I feel so stupid trying to work the Bru'n Water spreadsheet.

The bru'nwater sheet does have a learning curve- but you'll get it once you use it a few times.

I'd go with a mash pH of 5.2- 5.3 for this beer, to enhance the "brightness" of the flavor, if that makes sense. Increase the chloride, as above, and you should be on your way.

 

[CatalinaWineMixer]

My NEIPA is super simple. The goal, IMHO, is use the grist for sugar and mouthfeel. It shouldn't be too complex to muddle what needs to shine...the yeast and hops.

Here's my grist:

8# 2-row (pale)
4# oat malt

I add 10oz table sugar to dry it out, but that's it! I've done them with flaked oats (up to 20%) and flaked wheat...not with both. I would go with one or the other. But my vote is on the oat malt over anything flaked.
Keep the grist simple, over pitch and add 90% of you hops in whirlpool and dry hop.