Adding baking soda at flameout

[ebbelwoi]

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), during the lag phase after pitching, yeast will actively adjust the pH of wort until it reaches a level suitable for that particular strain. I hope I've got that right.

I've got a couple of beers that end up a bit too acidic, mainly because of the yeasts I use (Lallemand Voss and Munich Classic). If possible, I'd like to continue using these yeasts, but I'd like to boost the final pH of the beer slightly.

One method I'm considering is adding baking soda. I've tried mixing a pinch into a glass of beer, and the results have been positive. My next step is to add it to the entire batch. One way to do this would be to add it to a keg. I do closed transfers, so I'm a bit leery of opening a purged keg just to add the baking soda.

Would it be worth a shot to add the baking soda at flameout? My water is very low in sodium and bicarbonate, so I have enough "room" in there. Or would the yeast negate the effect and just take it down to the pH they want?

For what it's worth, I add brewing salts to my mash water, and I know the approximate pH of my tap water, but I don't own a pH meter at this point. For my Voss brews, my estimated mash pH is 5.4, and for my Munich Classic brews, it's around 5.8. The Munich Classic brews come out especially tart.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The consensus among the peer reviewed masters of the brewing art that I've been studying is that heading into fermentation you want the Wort to be at pH 5.1 to 5.2 (as measured at room temperature) so as to assist the yeast, else they may not easily achieve their ideal pH, with some of these masters (albeit lesser in number) saying that pH 5.0 also fits the bill here. Baking soda will most often be heading you in the wrong direction, as it generally requires additional later stage acidification (I.E., additional to that added within the mash step) accomplished pre, during, or post boil whereby to hit 5.1-5.2 pH and have happy yeast.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks for the quick response. It certainly makes sense. I think I can rig up a plastic syringe to a disconnect and add the baking soda that way, before kegging.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks for the quick response. It certainly makes sense. I think I can rig up a plastic syringe to a disconnect and add the baking soda that way, before kegging.

Again, unless you are heading into fermentation at below a pH of 5.0, which is not very likely, baking soda would clearly be heading things in the wrong direction.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. I would be adding the baking soda post-fermentation, prior to kegging. Is that still a problem?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. I would be adding the baking soda post-fermentation, prior to kegging. Is that still a problem?

Yes, as ideally you want your decarbonated beer to be at between 3.9 and 4.3 pH for long term stability.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Bacteria can potentially invade the finished beer if it is at 4.4 pH or higher.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I see. I'm doing small batches (10L) that remain chilled from the time I cold-crash until the keg is empty, about two weeks or so. Is it still a concern?

Alternatively, are there any other safe and easy ways to raise the pH of a finished beer? I'd like to continue using these yeasts if possible.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I see. I'm doing small batches (10L) that remain chilled from the time I cold-crash until the keg is empty, about two weeks or so. Is it still a concern?

Not for 2 weeks of lifespan at cold storage.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The benefit you are seeing may be related to adding sodium, as opposed to modifying the pH. A pinch of baking soda added to a glass is probably adding substantial sodium. You might consider adding 50 to 80 ppm sodium as part of your mineralization routine to see if that gives you a similar perceived benefit.

 

[Bilsch]

The baking soda in the kettle sounds like a bad idea to me. Really the first thing you should do is get yourself a pH meter because without that you are flying blind.

 

[SanPancho]

Theres no issues at all with adding sodium to kettle. But yes you should get some water software so you aren’t just doing this willy nilly.

i guess the bigger question is why you think its the final ph? What exactly is it that you taste/sense? How does the soda change the beer?

im sort of in agreement that it might be less about ph and maybe more like a mineral profile issue. Hard to say without more info

 

[dwhite60]

You can get potassium bicarbonate. I've used it in mead.

It will neutralize the acid but not be salty.

 

[Bilsch]

To be clear my apprehension with the bicarbonate in the kettle was not because of the sodium load. As was already mentioned, it is advantageous to lower the knockout pH to assist the yeast reducing the wort pH, which it must do, before the ferment can begin. By raising the pH you are just increasing the lag time, creating a worse environment for the yeast.

 

[SanPancho]

Also forgot to note that a tastier way to up the ph is to dry hop.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Theres no issues at all with adding sodium to kettle. But yes you should get some water software so you aren’t just doing this willy nilly.

i guess the bigger question is why you think its the final ph? What exactly is it that you taste/sense? How does the soda change the beer?

im sort of in agreement that it might be less about ph and maybe more like a mineral profile issue. Hard to say without more info

I don't have the sense that I'm doing this willy-nilly or flying blind. I have a reasonably complete water profile and make adjustments to my water chemistry on a per-recipe basis using brewing software. I have very soft water to start with, FWIW.

My hefeweizens always come out more tart than I'd like. I'd like to reduce that tartness. My thinking was that the tartness was a result of a pH that was too low. Adding a tiny bit of baking soda reduces the tartness. I assume that it's raising the pH, and I'm aware of the sodium content as well. WLP300 and Munich Classic create a bigger pH drop than, say, WLP351, but due to price, availability, etc. I'd like to be able to use Munich Classic without the tartness. I also use Voss, which creates a bit of tartness, albeit to a lesser extent.

Dry-hopping isn't an option for hefeweizen, and my Voss recipes (APA, Amber, Porter) don't require it, either.

I'll look into potassium bicarbonate. Thanks, @dwhite60! And thanks to everyone else for the input.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't have the sense that I'm doing this willy-nilly or flying blind. I have a reasonably complete water profile and make adjustments to my water chemistry on a per-recipe basis using brewing software. I have very soft water to start with, FWIW.

If you knew how far off those water reports can be and the variability of the source you'd think twice about the pH meter. Not to mention the water calculators can also be off because there are just so many variables.

You mention having very soft water and so that makes me think that your water has low buffering capacity which means the yeast can more easily take the pH low. I'd look at increasing the mineralization of the mash before adding carbonates to the boil.

 

[ebbelwoi]

If you knew how far off those water reports can be and the variability of the source you'd think twice about the pH meter. Not to mention the water calculators can also be off because there are just so many variables.

You mention having very soft water and so that makes me think that your water has low buffering capacity which means the yeast can more easily take the pH low. I'd look at increasing the mineralization of the mash before adding carbonates to the boil.

I believe you when you say there are many variables, but to my palate, there's not much variation in from batch to batch in terms of acidity/tartness.

I think I understand the concept of buffering. I'm assuming that my brewing software (Brewfather in this case) will account for it, but that may not be the case, for all I know.

I'm having problems connecting A to B here. I already add minerals to the mash to reach my target levels of Ca, Na, Cl and SO4. For something like a pilsner, I add a bit of lactic acid. For hefeweizen, I only add calcium chloride and table salt. What changes can I make to my mineralization that will lead to less tartness in my final product, keeping in mind that I am already at my target ion levels?

 

[Stonehenge360]

+1 on the buffering idea. Adding a buffer will keep you a lot more stable than adding a base. If your water is soft, it has low buffering capacity, and ph will change much more for quickly from any additions. I believe you can add the buffer pre mash also, so no worries about oxygenating the keg, and brewing buffers are designed to keep the PH in the correct mashing range

trying to remember back to high school chem lab...I’m pretty sure the final PH is related to, but not directly correlated with your ion levels. You can have the proper ions but still have too much H+ or OH- in the water pushing it above or below your target PH level

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks. How do I add a buffer?

Of the two yeasts I mentioned, the one that most concerns/confounds me is Munich Classic, which is said to be similar or equivalent to WLP300/WY3067/Weihenstephan 68. The famous article in Brau! magazine says that this yeast creates a 1.0 pH drop. Basically, I'd like to know whether there's anything that I can do to counter this. I understand that being able to measure my pH accurately is important, but once I've done that, and if I've determined that my final pH is indeed lower than desired, what can I do about it, besides choosing a different yeast?

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Lot of good info here. I would just split a batch add the your bicarbonate to the fermenter of one batch, then taste the two. Then report back what you think

 

[Bilsch]

Germans are known to avoid soft low carbonate water for making Hefeweizen for just this reason. They will get the mash pH right with sauergut creating lactate buffers in the process. This water chemistry is then more resistive to pH changes therefore the yeast can’t take it so low.

 

[SanPancho]

I don't have the sense that I'm doing this willy-nilly or flying blind. I have a reasonably complete water profile and make adjustments to my water chemistry on a per-recipe basis using brewing software. I have very soft water to start with, FWIW.

My hefeweizens always come out more tart than I'd like. I'd like to reduce that tartness. My thinking was that the tartness was a result of a pH that was too low. Adding a tiny bit of baking soda reduces the tartness. I assume that it's raising the pH, and I'm aware of the sodium content as well. WLP300 and Munich Classic create a bigger pH drop than, say, WLP351, but due to price, availability, etc. I'd like to be able to use Munich Classic without the tartness. I also use Voss, which creates a bit of tartness, albeit to a lesser extent.

Dry-hopping isn't an option for hefeweizen, and my Voss recipes (APA, Amber, Porter) don't require it, either.

I'll look into potassium bicarbonate. Thanks, @dwhite60! And thanks to everyone else for the input.

my bad, i thought you were only checking ph, and not minerals.

well as noted below, natural/active acidification is much better at providing buffering. the other thing is to play with fermenation parameters like temp and pitch rate. that also can help alter the course of the final ph.

lastly, try a similar yeast from a different lab.

the only changes you can make to add buffering in terms of salts is stuff that doenst make too much sense, like adding alkalines such as soda and other carbonates, but then you have to add more acids to keep the ph where you want it. it just compilcates things, in my opinion.

ive never done it, but i think sauergut isnt too hard to make. just takes some planning in advance.

 

[Bilsch]

The famous article in Brau! magazine says that this yeast creates a 1.0 pH drop. Basically, I'd like to know whether there's anything that I can do to counter this. I understand that being able to measure my pH accurately is important, but once I've done that, and if I've determined that my final pH is indeed lower than desired, what can I do about it, besides choosing a different yeast?

Here is another piece to the puzzle. In a good German Hefeweizen the final pH should be right around 4 and the drop from kettle pH mostly comes from yeast derived biological acids or a mix of that and any knockout acid addition to the boil kettle. But here is the thing, not all acids taste the same regardless of the final beer pH. Good Weissbier brewers know that the acidity from sauergut is more pleasing to the palate then is the yeast derived acid and therefore use a good deal of it to lower the wort pH at the end of the boil. Not only does this improve said flavors it also saves the yeast time trying to alter the wort pH before the ferment can begin, thus reducing the lag time and speeding up the consumption of dissolved oxygen added to the chilled wort, all of which results in cleaner fresher tasting, more storage stable beer.

"Top-fermenting yeasts are not as sensitive as are lager yeasts to wort pH, and the pH of a top fermenting beer will plummet to 4.0 to 4.1 regardless of the pH of the cast out wort"
(Warner, 1992, p. 56)

Lets circle back around to the original idea of adding carbonates to the boil. This will not stop the yeast from dropping the pH, only delay them and extend the lag time. They will simply need to absorb more bases and excrete more acids to get the job done. My contention is by adding your base to the boil you will actually be accomplishing the opposite of what you intended, resulting in a beer that tastes even more harshly acidic. You may indeed be amazed to discover that if you take the opposite approach and acidify your wort prior to knockout the end result will be a lower yeast derived biological acid content and, while still at same low pH, will taste less acidic. Personally I'd use lactic if I didn't have sauergut. But before doing any of that, I would first purchase a pH meter to know my mash was in the 5.5-5.7 range which is considered perfect for wheat beer mash. Then at 10 minutes before boil end bring down the kettle pH to around 5.2 for the knockout.

You might look here for more information on how buffering effects final beer pH.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1976.tb03739.x

 

[ebbelwoi]

Here is another piece to the puzzle. In a good German Hefeweizen the final pH should be right around 4 and the drop from kettle pH mostly comes from yeast derived biological acids or a mix of that and any knockout acid addition to the boil kettle. But here is the thing, not all acids taste the same regardless of the final beer pH. Good Weissbier brewers know that the acidity from sauergut is more pleasing to the palate then is the yeast derived acid and therefore use a good deal of it to lower the wort pH at the end of the boil. Not only does this improve said flavors it also saves the yeast time trying to alter the wort pH before the ferment can begin, thus reducing the lag time and speeding up the consumption of dissolved oxygen added to the chilled wort, all of which results in cleaner fresher tasting, more storage stable beer.

"Top-fermenting yeasts are not as sensitive as are lager yeasts to wort pH, and the pH of a top fermenting beer will plummet to 4.0 to 4.1 regardless of the pH of the cast out wort"
(Warner, 1992, p. 56)

Lets circle back around to the original idea of adding carbonates to the boil. This will not stop the yeast from dropping the pH, only delay them and extend the lag time. They will simply need to absorb more bases and excrete more acids to get the job done. My contention is by adding your base to the boil you will actually be accomplishing the opposite of what you intended, resulting in a beer that tastes even more harshly acidic. You may indeed be amazed to discover that if you take the opposite approach and acidify your wort prior to knockout the end result will be a lower yeast derived biological acid content and, while still at same low pH, will taste less acidic. Personally I'd use lactic if I didn't have sauergut. But before doing any of that, I would first purchase a pH meter to know my mash was in the 5.5-5.7 range which is considered perfect for wheat beer mash. Then at 10 minutes before boil end bring down the kettle pH to around 5.2 for the knockout.

You might look here for more information on how buffering effects final beer pH.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1976.tb03739.x

Lots to digest here. Thanks for all of this! I hope to get to it over the next day or two.

I'm going to look especially closely at this:

You may indeed be amazed to discover that if you take the opposite approach and acidify your wort prior to knockout the end result will be a lower yeast derived biological acid content and, while still at same low pH, will taste less acidic.

Cheers!

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, a post-fermentation addition of an alkaline salt can be used to reduce the pH and acidity of a finished beer. Baking soda is an option, but in a finished beer, chalk is also an option. Chalk doesn't dissolve very well in water, but there are enough stronger acids in beer that can dissolve the chalk.

Don't bother with a brewing water calculator when dealing with beer pH adjustment. The buffering system and response is quite different than for wort. I suggest setting up a trial with a pint of the beer and add known quantities of your alkaline salt and then taste. Start with a small addition and check the effect with subsequent additions until you find that its where you want the taste to be. Scale up the total salt additions from the pint into the batch volume and add that to the batch.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Just wanted to follow up with an update.

On my next hefeweizen, I acidified the wort after the ferulic acid rest, and again with about 10 minutes remaining in the boil, to an estimated 5.1 final pH into the kettle. It made a significant difference in the final flavor, and I feel like I've turned a corner on my hefeweizens.

Thanks to everyone who contributed (so patiently) to this thread. Broschd!

 

[Miraculix]

Just wanted to follow up with an update.

On my next hefeweizen, I acidified the wort after the ferulic acid rest, and again with about 10 minutes remaining in the boil, to an estimated 5.1 final pH into the kettle. It made a significant difference in the final flavor, and I feel like I've turned a corner on my hefeweizens.

Thanks to everyone who contributed (so patiently) to this thread. Broschd!

View attachment 706038 View attachment 706039

Prost.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Sorry for posting one more, but I realized that the earlier bottle was primed with table sugar. This one was dextrose, which usually seems to give me a nice creamy snowball. Feinporig, as the Germans would say.