Acidulated malt, looking for info

[Devilsnight]

I'm working my way into building a water profile for a pale ale using distilled water. I'm wondering if 4% of the grain bill is to much for acid malt. Is there another way to get my ph lower? What kind of tastes and such would you get from using to much? I'm finding it hard to find much info in general so, any help much appreciated!

 

[alane1]

have you tried using a water calculator? http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

 

[Devilsnight]

Yup, Im tinkering with that. Just, having a hard time understanding what different components are actually doing. I have calcium chloride, gypsum and acidulated malt on hand so, trying to figure out what I can accomplish with these. How much is to much is part of what i'm wondering.
Say it's estimating my ph at 5.5, If I'm trying to get down to 5.3 how can I do this? Other than adding more acid malt.

 

[helibrewer]

Yup, Im tinkering with that. Just, having a hard time understanding what different components are actually doing. I have calcium chloride, gypsum and acidulated malt on hand so, trying to figure out what I can accomplish with these. How much is to much is part of what i'm wondering.
Say it's estimating my ph at 5.5, If I'm trying to get down to 5.3 how can I do this? Other than adding more acid malt.

I use about 1-2%, usually close to 1/4lb. If you need to use more acid, use lactic (88%) or phosphoric.

 

[Braufessor]

Yeah - I usually keep my acidulated malt about 1-2% (1-4 ounces in a typical 5-6 gallon batch.)

As suggested, phosphoric acid can be used.

I always dilute my tap water with RO water to start. Depending on style, I will use 40-100% RO water. In conjunction with whatever grains I am using, it never takes me more than 3-4 ounces of acidulated to get my pH where it needs to go.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm working my way into building a water profile for a pale ale using distilled water. I'm wondering if 4% of the grain bill is to much for acid malt.

No. Not at all in most peoples' opinion.

Is there another way to get my ph lower?

Yes, absolutely. A kg of Weyemanns sauermalz is capapble of delivering 279 mEq of protons to pH 5.2, 295 to pH 5.3, 311 to pH 5.4, 326 to pH 5.5 and so on (157.7*pH - 541). Any other reasonable acid will do. For example if you wanted to go to pH 5.4 and needed 100 g of this sauermalz to do that you would need 31.1 mEq of protons. 10% phosphoric acid is about 1 N so 31.1 mL of that would also give you the 31.1 mEq as would 31.1/12 mL of 88% lactic acid which is about 12 N.

What kind of tastes and such would you get from using to much? I'm finding it hard to find much info in general so, any help much appreciated!

A lot of people seem to think of sauermalz as lactic acid on rice hulls i.e. they worry about the flavor of the lactic acid and forget that the grain it rides on also contributes flavor. At 4% you should not notice lactic flavor but you might well notice some malty flavors from the grain itself. Some say they don't notice this. Some (including Weyermann) suggest that it adds nuanced flavors to the beer.

 

[Devilsnight]

Thanks Aj, this talk of protons and such is a little over my head. Perhaps I should have paid more attention in science class! I honestly have to do a search every time to figure out what Ca and HCO3 etc.. means. Perhaps 'Water chemistry for dummies' would be in order If such a gifted person had the time, for the weekend warrior types like me!

Anyway, My tap water is very hard and the city doesn't test for anything I need to know. I haven't found anywhere reasonable to get it tested either so.. I've been trying spring water recently but thought, Perhaps I can just build a profile with nuetral water and see if the results are more to my liking.

My basic plan is, Add what I need to distilled water to hit my Ph using brewers friend calculator. Check with test strip to see if im in the proper range. I guess this is about the best I can do right now. Thanks guys!

 

[Devilsnight]

Is there a significant difference then between brands? Such as weyermanns as apposed to the best malz acidulated that I have now? Also, after a little more reading, Is it a bad idea to crush the acidulated malt with the rest of the grain if it was going to sit for a few days? I usually mill a few days early to save time on brew day.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks Aj, this talk of protons and such is a little over my head. Perhaps I should have paid more attention in science class! I honestly have to do a search every time to figure out what Ca and HCO3 etc.. means. Perhaps 'Water chemistry for dummies' would be in order If such a gifted person had the time, for the weekend warrior types like me!

I struggle to find a way to make this comprehensible because it is really very simple and you don't need to know any chemistry to understand it. If you think of protons as 'particles of acidity' that should really be all you need to know about them. An acid, clearly, should have lots of particles of acidity in it and, as pH is a measure of acidity (though a confusing one because a more acid thing has a smaller pH number than a less acid thing) it is not surprising that in becoming less acid (higher pH) it must give up acidity particles. At the same time it should be clear that a malt that has a high pH (lower acidity) would become more acid (lower pH) if it absorbed some acidity particles. Thus when we mix a low pH acid with a higher pH malt acidity particles pass from the former to the latter and the pH winds up between the pH's of the two original components. It goes to the value at which the number of particles given up by the acid just equals the number absorbed by the base malt.

Anyway, My tap water is very hard and the city doesn't test for anything I need to know. I haven't found anywhere reasonable to get it tested either so..

Ward Labs does a good job, is reasonable in price and is in your neck of the woods.

 

[ajdelange]

Is there a significant difference then between brands? Such as weyermanns as apposed to the best malz acidulated that I have now?

There could be. I have only measured the Weyermann's. In fact it is certain that there are differences. The question is as to whether the difference is significant.

Also, after a little more reading, Is it a bad idea to crush the acidulated malt with the rest of the grain if it was going to sit for a few days? I usually mill a few days early to save time on brew day.

For a couple of days especially in the winter you should be fine. Malt does take up moisture from the air and become 'slack'. What the consequences of this are, other than to throw the weight measurement off, I don't really know.

 

[Devilsnight]

That makes perfect sense. I'll checkout ward and see what they offer.

 

[burdbrew]

I have had great results lowering Ph using Lactic Acid in moderation (on top of an addition of CaCl or Gypsum, depending on what I'm trying to do). Simple and easy solution.

 

[dfhar]

I used to use acidulated malt, but I've switched to 88% lactic acid because for me it's less fuss and one less kind of malt I need to buy. I dough in, wait a couple minutes, draw a sample and measure it with my pH meter, then do a quick calculation to figure out how much lactic acid I need to add to lower my mash pH to between 5.2-5.5.

Another advantage with using lactic acid is that you can do a second acidification after sparging and immediately before starting the boil. This is nice for some German lager styles, where a pre-boil pH of around 5.4 is desirable because it results in a softer hop bitterness.

 

[riderkb]

I'm working my way into building a water profile for a pale ale using distilled water. I'm wondering if 4% of the grain bill is to much for acid malt. Is there another way to get my ph lower? What kind of tastes and such would you get from using to much? I'm finding it hard to find much info in general so, any help much appreciated!

I like the way my light ales taste with 1.5% acid malt. At 3% it was too tart. With my medium hardness well water, 1.5% puts the mash pH at 5.4. To be honest, though, I only fool with the pH because the experts say you are supposed to. The effect on the final product is pretty subtle. It is a little clearer and the flavor is "brighter" but there are more important things to worry about.

 

[Devilsnight]

I used to use acidulated malt, but I've switched to 88% lactic acid because for me it's less fuss and one less kind of malt I need to buy. I dough in, wait a couple minutes, draw a sample and measure it with my pH meter, then do a quick calculation to figure out how much lactic acid I need to add to lower my mash pH to between 5.2-5.5.

Another advantage with using lactic acid is that you can do a second acidification after sparging and immediately before starting the boil. This is nice for some German lager styles, where a pre-boil pH of around 5.4 is desirable because it results in a softer hop bitterness.

This would be ideal for me if i had a good meter, I guess i'm trying to avoid that cost right now but am probly headed that way in the future. Little bit at a time, I have other hobbies that come before beer

Thanks everyone, I think I have a better idea of what I'm going to do now.