Acidification questions

[Sedge]

Hey guys, I'm a longtime cider drinker about to start experimenting at home.

My favorite cider is Etienne Dupont Organic Bouche Brut. I love the tart and biting mouthfeel, the slightly sweet flavor and the dry finish. I had the good fortune to attend a cider dinner last month with Jerome Dupont of Etienne Dupont and got a lot of great insight into his cider making process. They use a blend of 9 different apples to get the right tart/sweet/bitter combination, and all spontaneous fermentation for that farmhouse flavor.

I would like to replicate the tart aspects of this cider, but don't have access to any tart apple juice like crabapples. I could maybe find some Granny Smith and blend, but I want to start simple. My first trials will be with the three apple blend organic unfiltered juice in the 1 gallon glass carboys from Whole Foods.

So my question is, how can I go about acidifying the juice to achieve the tartness in the finished product? I'm assuming Lactic Acid will be the right tool, but I don't know about quantity. Would the dosing be done pre-fermentation or in the conditioning stage? Also, has anyone tried using one of the commercial sour ale bacteria mixes to finish out a cider? I have a small stockpile of the Organic BB in the fridge but if I recall what Jerome said at the dinner they use the champagne method to remove the yeast. I'm going to drink a bottle tonight to see if there is any residual sediment from the dosage.


I tried searching for some of these things, but everytime I add the word 'tart' or 'sour' into a search with 'cider' all I find are threads about getting rid of the tartness. I have a lot of brewing equipment and a decent amount of fermentation science knowledge so feel free to be as technical as you want in answering.

Thanks

 

[Freezeblade]

Hey guys, I'm a longtime cider drinker about to start experimenting at home.

My favorite cider is Etienne Dupont Organic Bouche Brut. I love the tart and biting mouthfeel, the slightly sweet flavor and the dry finish. I had the good fortune to attend a cider dinner last month with Jerome Dupont of Etienne Dupont and got a lot of great insight into his cider making process. They use a blend of 9 different apples to get the right tart/sweet/bitter combination, and all spontaneous fermentation for that farmhouse flavor.

I would like to replicate the tart aspects of this cider, but don't have access to any tart apple juice like crabapples. I could maybe find some Granny Smith and blend, but I want to start simple. My first trials will be with the three apple blend organic unfiltered juice in the 1 gallon glass carboys from Whole Foods.

So my question is, how can I go about acidifying the juice to achieve the tartness in the finished product? I'm assuming Lactic Acid will be the right tool, but I don't know about quantity. Would the dosing be done pre-fermentation or in the conditioning stage? Also, has anyone tried using one of the commercial sour ale bacteria mixes to finish out a cider? I have a small stockpile of the Organic BB in the fridge but if I recall what Jerome said at the dinner they use the champagne method to remove the yeast. I'm going to drink a bottle tonight to see if there is any residual sediment from the dosage.


I tried searching for some of these things, but everytime I add the word 'tart' or 'sour' into a search with 'cider' all I find are threads about getting rid of the tartness. I have a lot of brewing equipment and a decent amount of fermentation science knowledge so feel free to be as technical as you want in answering.

Thanks

I add tannins/acid in my ciders using black tea and lime juice, although you could do it with acid blend and tannins from the home brew store or buying it from an online brew store.

 

[Sedge]

Do you acidify to taste after fermentation, or before?

 

[Freezeblade]

Do you acidify to taste after fermentation, or before?

Before. the recipe is in my drop-down.

 

[CandleWineProject]

Um, I'm not sure you are going about this the right way, though Freezeblade kinds of pushed you in sort of the right direction.

Cider apples are classified as sweet, bittersweet, sharp, and bittersharp. This is based off of their acid and tannin composition. http://www.cider.org.uk/appledat.htm I can't seem to find it at the moment, but there is kind of a magical formula of what percentage of these 4 to use in a blend. If you scroll down on that link, you will see that Golden Delicious would be a "sweet" apple. Most of the apples you can find in the grocery store, AKA "dessert" apples, are sweets, though a lot of heirloom apples like Golden and Red Delicious make for good cider I hear, and that is in your Whole Foods juice.

I would not increase the acid, or if you did, get an acid testing kit and see if it is needed (remember, those kits are for 3 acids in grapes, but apples only have 2). As for tannin, just use grape tannin if you are worried.

Also, make a batch where you do nothing to the juice, just as a control for your experiments. Maybe it will be horrible, or maybe you find out that all this hoop jumping really didn't make any difference. Won't know until you try.

Oh, and I've had some very good craft cider made only with Granny Smith out of Mt Vernon, WA, where WSU has a research facility that works with cider.

 

[Sedge]

Thanks. I'll explain a bit more the way I'm going to go about it.

I'm familiar with the types of apples and what they bring to the table in the final mix to be fermented, but I don't have the option of sourcing my apples, pressing them and blending. So unfortunately its jug o'juice for me.

I'm going to do 3 or 4 side by side for starters with nothing at all added (except for maybe some pectic enzyme and yeast nutrient) but using different yeasts. I figured in the mean time I would try to start absorbing all the info I can in this forum and elsewhere. I'm making my way through the plethora of knowledge over at http://cider.org.uk/frameset.htm during my lunch breaks.

I love sour ales and semisweet tart ciders, and I want to get some knowledge of modifying the juices I have at hand in the event I end up with something terrible or overly sweet/dry/vomitastic etc.

 

[benjamin123]

I've used the Whole Foods juice before. I would not add any acid. It ends up much tarter than you think it will.

I do think it needs tannin. I like using tea better than commercial tannin.

Check out the info in the "Results from Juice, yeast and sugar experiments." I've found the yeast recommendations spot on.

 

[Sedge]

I've used the Whole Foods juice before. I would not add any acid. It ends up much tarter than you think it will.

I do think it needs tannin. I like using tea better than commercial tannin.

Check out the info in the "Results from Juice, yeast and sugar experiments." I've found the yeast recommendations spot on.

Nice. I've gotten about a third of the way through that thread and it is very helpful indeed. Lots to absorb though. I've got some Safale US-04 and nutrients in the freezer that I can pitch tonight, but no pectic enzymes. Should I wait until I can get to the LHBS to pick up the enzymes or is it not something to worry about?

Also, I'm unfamiliar with cider pitching rates. Can I split this packet of US-04 across two of the gallon jugs?

I'm enjoying a nice goblet of the Organic Bouche Brut as I type

 

[Edcculus]

Hey, thanks for posting. I'm slowly getting into craft cider making too and am currently doing a batch with the Whole Foods juice and Rogue Pacman. I've done Apfelwein and Graff, but want something I can call a true cider.

For those of you who add tannin with tea, what is your process? Do you boil black tea in a little water to ensure tannin extraction, then add to the cider? How much do you normally add (lets say to a 5 gallon batch).

 

[Freezeblade]

Hey, thanks for posting. I'm slowly getting into craft cider making too and am currently doing a batch with the Whole Foods juice and Rogue Pacman. I've done Apfelwein and Graff, but want something I can call a true cider.

For those of you who add tannin with tea, what is your process? Do you boil black tea in a little water to ensure tannin extraction, then add to the cider? How much do you normally add (lets say to a 5 gallon batch).

I generally steep the tea bags in boiling water that has had lime in it (for acid to make sure that it's steril) and let it steep until the tea temp hits below 100F
Amount is usually 4-5 tea bags per 5 gallon batch, depending how tannic the juice in question is, some brands need more (like kirkland for example)

 

[benjamin123]

Check our Graham's English Cider:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/grahams-english-cider-107152/

I use one bag of PG tips per gallon, and I simmer it. . . but I like a lot of tannin. Others on here have recommended 3 teabags for 5 gallons.

 

[benjamin123]

. . . or listen to Freezeblade above. It's his recipe!

 

[benjamin123]

I think you can use 1 pack of s-04 for up to 5 gallons. I'm never that accurate, so I pitch what I guestimate to be a 5th of the package, and it usually ends up lasting me three batches.

My guestimation is off.

I have always added pectic enzyme. I'm guessing worst case scenario the cider won't clear perfectly without it, but it will still taste the same.