Acetaldehyde Issues

[nitro0292]

This is my second post on this topic and apologies in advance for my noob-paranoia.

In all but my second brew, I have had acetaldehyde issues. Since I wasn't controlling fermentation temperature I assumed that fermentation temperature was the cause - now I am not so sure.

Most recently, I brewed a 3 gallon batch of Pale Ale with an OG of 1.051. Pitched 2 packages of Wy1272 (no starter). Fermented at a controlled 64 degrees for 3 weeks (temp. probe taped to side of carboy). Everything was cleaned w/ OneStep and soaked in a StarSan solution.

Fermentation took off quickly (12 hrs) and within a week I was at FG of 1.012, krausen had fallen and yeast had settled. I went to transfer this weekend (3 weeks to the day), took a gravity reading (still 1.012), but I was hit with a tremendous smell of acetaldehyde (again) from the carboy.

I have taken the 3-gallon carboy out of the fridge and I am leaving it @ room temperature hoping the yeast will start or continue to "clean up" this undesirable odor/taste.

I have a feeling I'm being a bit paranoid, but 3 weeks on the yeast for a beer with this gravity seems like it should be sufficient to ferment and condition - at least to the point where there is not a noticeable smell of apples coming from the fermenter. Especially considering the beer is fairly clear at this point.

I would like to be able to brew a beer without acetaldehyde - the stuff is gross. The beer still on the yeast - will anything help reduce the acetaldehyde? Yeast nutrient? More yeast? More wort?

Time is "supposed" to help (although time has not helped any of my other acetaldehyde-beers yet), but are there other things I can do?

Right now I plan on leaving in primary for another two weeks (5 total) which seems excessive for a 1.051 OG. If I still have acetaldehyde at that point is it likely an infection?

Are there any indicators of an acetobacter?

Getting very discouraged. I don't expect competition beer after 6 batches...but I'd like to able to drink the stuff without it reminding me of foamy apple juice.

 

[MalFet]

If you've got an acetobacter, you'd get sourness and a steadily dropping gravity. Does this current batch taste like acetaldehyde?

 

[nitro0292]

Gravity is not dropping, so I guess that is a good thing.

No noticeable taste of apples at this time, but none of the others tasted or smelled like apples until I started opening bottles. I have about 90 IBUs of bittering hops - could this mask the taste somewhat?

 

[MalFet]

Gravity is not dropping, so I guess that is a good thing.

No noticeable taste of apples at this time, but none of the others tasted or smelled like apples until I started opening bottles. I have about 90 IBUs of bittering hops - could this mask the taste somewhat?

90 IBUs will certainly mask a lot of defects, but that's not necessarily the case here. I understand the fear considering that your last batches had off flavors, but is this the first temperature controlled batch? If you can smell it but can't taste it, my hunch is that it is something other than acetaldehyde, like perhaps you got a big ol' whiff of CO2.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Gravity is not dropping, so I guess that is a good thing.

No noticeable taste of apples at this time, but none of the others tasted or smelled like apples until I started opening bottles. I have about 90 IBUs of bittering hops - could this mask the taste somewhat?

What about finishing hops? Depending on the variety you've used it could very well be a hop aroma mixed with some other fermentation volatiles you're smelling. As an example that is unrelated to acetaldehyde, but related to hop aroma changing from carboy to glass... The last Simcoe IPA I made smelled like straight up cat pi$$ after primary. I thought it was a dumper. After kegging and carbing, each pint I pulled had a wonderful grapefruit/citrus aroma...nothing like what it smelled like after fermentation.

 

[wedge421]

Yeah it would be tough for enough of the acetobacter to develop over 3 weeks. If it starts to get stronger after another month or so that it got infected somewhere along the line. Just call it a Flemish Red

 

[nitro0292]

This is my first temperature controlled batch. I actually smelled the odor while preparing to transfer into secondary - a few minutes after I popped the carboy cap off to take a gravity reading.

In terms of finishing hops, I used cascade, centennial and willamette. I was seeking grapefruit/citrus aroma.

One of the reasons I fear an infection is because when I did the first gravity reading, after 1 week in primary I did not smell apples. Now that I smell them I am worried.

 

[chaydaw]

How about making a starter? Underpitching can lead to a variety of off flavors. You've said you have not used a starter. I think that is something you need to start doing in your next batch.

 

[Revvy]

Are you talking about Acetaldehyde or acetobactor? Does it taste like green apples or vinegar?

I just noticed something, that maybe noone else did, you're diagnosing your beer while it's still in the fermenter, NOT when it's in the bottle and not green anymore.

If you're tasting an off flavor (not vinegar/sour) while the beer is NOT carbed and conditioned more than likely are tasting green beer, and NOT a anything wrong. Additionally sometimes new brewers thing their beer is sour/vinegared when what they are REALLY tasting/smelling is CO2, which mimics to the inexperienced sourness/vinegar.

You wouldn't believe the number of new brewer panic threads we get on here where folks SWEAR their beer is vinegarry when they just got a whiff of co2...

But the biggest thing is that you are trying to diagnose your beer as having a problem when it is still early on the journey....And not even in the bottles yet.)

I see this all the time, new nervous brewers panicking and self diagnosing their beer WAY TOO EARLY ON THE JOURNEY....

Read this;

Singljohn hit the nail on the head...The only problem is that you aren't seeing the beer through it's complete process BEFORE calling what is probably just green beer, an off flavor.

It sounds like you are tasting it in the fermenter? If that is the case, do nothing. Because nothing is wrong.

It really is hard to judge a beer until it's been about 6 weeks in the bottle. Just because you taste (or smell) something in primary or secondary DOESN'T mean it will be there when the beer is fully conditioned (that's also the case with kegging too.)

The thing to remember though is that if you are smelling or tasting this during fermentation not to worry. During fermentation all manner of stinky stuff is given off (ask lager brewers about rotten egg/sulphur smells, or Apfelwein makers about "rhino farts,") like we often say, fermentation is often ugly AND stinky and PERFECTLY NORMAL.

It's really only down the line, AFTER the beer has been fermented (and often after it has bottle conditioned even,) that you concern yourself with any flavor issues if they are still there.

I think too many new brewers focus to much on this stuff too early in the beer's journey. And they panic unnecessarily.

A lot of the stuff you smell/taste initially more than likely ends up disappearing either during a long primary/primary & secondary combo, Diacetyl rests and even during bottle conditioning.

If I find a flavor/smell, I usually wait til it's been in the bottle 6 weeks before I try to "diagnose" what went wrong, that way I am sure the beer has passed any window of greenness.

Lagering is a prime example of this. Lager yeast are prone to the production of a lot of byproducts, the most familiar one is sulphur compounds (rhino farts) but in the dark cold of the lagering process, which is at the minimum of a month (I think many homebrewers don't lager long enough) the yeast slowly consumes all those compounds which results in extremely clean tasting beers if done skillfully.

Ales have their own version of this, but it's all the same. Time is your friend.

If you are sampling your beer before you have passed a 'window of greeness" which my experience is about 3-6 weeks in the bottle, then you are more than likely just experiencing an "off flavor" due to the presence of those byproducts (that's what we mean when we say the beer is "green" it's still young and unconditioned.) but once the process is done, over 90% of the time the flavors/smells are gone.

Of the remaining 10%, half of those may still be salvageable through the long time storage that I mention in the Never dump your beer!!! Patience IS a virtue!!! Time heals all things, even beer:

And the remaining 50% of the last 10% are where these tables and lists come into play. To understand what you did wrong, so you can avoid it in the future.

Long story short....I betcha that smell/flavor will be long gone when the beer is carbed and conditioned.

In other words, relax, your beer will be just fine, like 99.5%.

You can find more info on that in here;

Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

Just remember it will not be the same beer it is now, and you shouldn't stress what you are tasting right now.

Our beer is more resilient then most new brewers realize, and time can be a big healer. Just read the stories in this thread of mine, and see how many times a beer that someone thought was bad, turned out to be fine weeks later.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/ne...virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

I would just relax, get the beer carbed and conditioned, and then see if you truly have an issue.

I bet after it's been in the bottle or keg 4 weeks, you'll come back like 99% of the other guys who start threads like this, and report that the beer is great.

Just like this guy who swore he had a problem with his beer, when it was early.

Just wanted to update, the beer is extremely pleasant now. The diacetyl is barely noticable now. It's not completely crisp, but still very good. It actually tastes a lot like Stella, though maybe that's just because I used Belgian pilsner malt.

I'm gonna bet you DON'T have Acetaldehyde or acetobactor issues with your beer- Rather you have newbitus compounded with impatience.....

 

[nitro0292]

Thanks Revvy, I hope that is the case. Trying to lose the newbitus!