A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[bob1852]

How many LODO brewers in this thread measure DO at all stages through the process?

 

[arturo7]

Man, you could steal a fireman’s boot from the street corner this Labor Day weekend and ferment in that for all I care! If you say it works for you and you like that crap then...!

[emoji1]

I love boot beer!

I usually use a steel-toed work boot for fermentation, but the idea of a fireman’s boot is intriguing. You could make one helluva rauchbier!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I love boot beer!

I usually use a steel-toed work boot for fermentation, but the idea of a fireman’s boot is intriguing. You could make one helluva rauchbier!

Steal-toe is so much better for LODO! If you use a copper-toe boot it’s frowned upon! [emoji1]

 

[ba-brewer]

Steal-toe is so much better for LODO! If you use a copper-toe boot it’s frowned upon! [emoji1]

Seem like boots are better suited for open fermentation, might just give your lambic or saison a little extra kick.

 

[Bilsch]

Yummy.. firemans boot IPA. I think any one of my local craft breweries could make that and people here would drink it.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

So when people say LODO is required to make great beer, that is plainly false. What they actually mean is you can't emulate certain German breweries without it.

I created a thread it the LODO forum asking which breweries actually have LODO, so I could go and taste on my next visit to Germany which will likely be the Munich area.

No one replied, which suggests no one actually knows, or at least not many people.

Now none of this doesn't mean LODO doesn't produce better beer, rather that is not necessary to produce great beer nor is it indicative of authenticity.

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side. It is is hot side that is more expensive. My distant cousins live in Oberailsfeld and they/we are friends with the brewer in the small town for Held Brau. I have been trying to get in the brewery for a tour but that area has been off limits for four visits now! I would love to see how they are trained and watch their process. The helles they make is quite awesome. It is my assertion that German brewers are trained to do a lot of things as 'standard practice' that might not be in place in other parts of the world.

In general, I would say all of the major Munich breweries have the funds to go big against oxygen. I read somewhere that the entire Augustiner brewing process is under a blanket of nitrogen. Sounds very German to me!

My favorites in the Munich area are Augustiner, Ayinger and Weihenstephaner out towards the airport in Freising.

 

[Queequeg]

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side. It is is hot side that is more expensive. My distant cousins live in Oberailsfeld and they/we are friends with the brewer in the small town for Held Brau. I have been trying to get in the brewery for a tour but that area has been off limits for four visits now! I would love to see how they are trained and watch their process. The helles they make is quite awesome. It is my assertion that German brewers are trained to do a lot of things as 'standard practice' that might not be in place in other parts of the world.

In general, I would say all of the major Munich breweries have the funds to go big against oxygen. I read somewhere that the entire Augustiner brewing process is under a blanket of nitrogen. Sounds very German to me!

My favorites in the Munich area are Augustiner, Ayinger and Weihenstephaner out towards the airport in Freising.

LODO cold side it not really the controversial part though. I think all breweries realise this.

What you say about Munich breweries is probably true, but I when I drink a helles from Fassla in Bamberg I don't think " this is oxidized" and I seriously doubt Fassla is LODO on the hot side.

 

[schematix]

"Oxidized" is a cold side flavor. No matter how the hot side was handled this is an easy flavor to pick up if you know what it is.

In simplified terms, oxidation on the hot side is more easily detected by a lack of certain flavors (fresh grain flavor as others have called them) that leads to an overall dullness.

 

[lump42]

I think about this as well but you can count on all of the breweries in Germany to be LODO on the cold side.

LODO on cold side only is usually referred to as "proper commercial packaging" and the commercial breweries I've toured in the states, big and small, were concerned about that. It's why beer guns and counter pressure fillers are a thing in the homebrew world.

It's the hot side oxidation that is causing the debate now a days.

 

[Bassman2003]

LODO cold side it not really the controversial part though. I think all breweries realise this.

What you say about Munich breweries is probably true, but I when I drink a helles from Fassla in Bamberg I don't think " this is oxidized" and I seriously doubt Fassla is LODO on the hot side.

I will try to contact the brewer at the small brewery and ask him about how they treat their brewing water. Specifically if they try to limit or eliminate oxygen before brewing. He might tell me that! But it will be though translation so we will see what we get.

 

[Bassman2003]

LODO on cold side only is usually referred to as "proper commercial packaging" and the commercial breweries I've toured in the states, big and small, were concerned about that. It's why beer guns and counter pressure fillers are a thing in the homebrew world.

It's the hot side oxidation that is causing the debate now a days.

True but I was referring to the use of Speise and natural carbonation where many other breweries around the world have good packaging practice but with forced, bottled CO2.

 

[Queequeg]

It will be interesting to see

 

[lump42]

True but I was referring to the use of Speise and natural carbonation where many other breweries around the world have good packaging practice but with forced, bottled CO2.

Speisse and natural carbonation is more of a restriction of the revised beer purity laws. They're not allowed to use exogenous CO2, only malt, water, hops, and yeast.

 

[Bilsch]

This is an extremely important point, I think there is this idea that all German breweries are LODO. The reality is LODO is prohibitively expensive on commerical scale for all but the biggest breweries. I suspect of the 300 or so Franconian microbreweries none are LODO.

What inside information do you have to make that assertion? I've been going to Germany for the last 20 years and my experience is that some do and some don't and it's easy to taste.

As for being prohibitively expensive that's also just your unsubstantiated opinion. Column degassers and vormashers are not terribly expensive and the rest depends on the setup of the brewery in question. Protecting the beer from hotside oxidation is not new technology or controversial especially in Germany.

 

[hopjuice_71]

What inside information do you have to make that assertion? I've been going to Germany for the last 20 years and my experience is that some do and some don't and It's easy to taste.

As for being prohibitively expensive that's also just your unsubstantiated opinion. Column degassers and vormashers are not terribly expensive and the rest is depends on the setup of the brewery in question. Protecting the beer from hotside oxygenation is not new technology or controversial especially in Germany.

Vormasher.. ..now what sounds like an awesome piece of equipment that we all need. Does it kill zombies as well?

Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[passedpawn]

Vormasher.. ..now what sounds like an awesome piece of equipment that we all need. Does it kill zombies as well?

Sorry, couldn't help it.

No idea what that is, but here's the fermentors from one of my trips to Dusseldorf. Altbier! Low tech, and not so much lodo...

 

[arturo7]

Vormasher

good name for a metal band

 

[Bilsch]

Vormasher

good name for a metal band

Definitely.

What it does is mix the milled grain with water while excluding air and then drop that slurry to the mashtun.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

When I was in my early twenties I used to love watching the 2 woodworking shows that were on PBS on Saturday or Sunday, I can’t remember which day. There was The Woodwrights Shop and The New Yankee Workshop. I really enjoyed them both. Norm had every power wood working tool imaginable and made exquisitely precise furniture. Real quality and beauty. Conversely, Roy Underhill had every woodworking hand tool known to man and while his work was not even close in it’s precision, it was elegant in a way that I found to rival Norm’s stuff in beauty. So one day Roy made a crack at Norm’s shop, mocking “the most important safety item, safety glasses”. So the next week on New Yankee, Norm was visibly upset and had a special little talk before his show on safety and how it’s not a joke. Consequently, and I’m not sure it was a coincidence, The Woodwrights Shop was off the air for at least a couple weeks.

So what does this have to do with LODO? LODO appears to have have the backing of science and industry as well as an air of the future of home brewing. Conversely, bottling beer, open transferring and not considering HSA seem to me more like the old way. Like Roy, I think it’s funny the extent people go to to make commercial grade Norm Abrahms beer in their garage, when I think that my Roy Underhill beer is a superior product if only because it is more like the old ways.

Also, like the little spat that I perceived Norm and Roy had, I think that the homebrew community acknowledges that LODO at least sounds good and elitists have a way of being really loud and convincing. Personally, I’d be more likely convinced to try lambic open fermentation then to do LODO. Roy beer is just better beer than Norm beer and I fully expect to have my broadcast shut down for saying so.

 

[pvpeacock]

What does Lodo and the Lord of the Rings have to do with beer?

 

[lump42]

When I was in my early twenties I used to love watching the 2 woodworking shows that were on PBS on Saturday or Sunday, I can’t remember which day. There was The Woodwrights Shop and The New Yankee Workshop. I really enjoyed them both. Norm had every power wood working tool imaginable and made exquisitely precise furniture. Real quality and beauty. Conversely, Roy Underhill had every woodworking hand tool known to man and while his work was not even close in it’s precision, it was elegant in a way that I found to rival Norm’s stuff in beauty. So one day Roy made a crack at Norm’s shop, mocking “the most important safety item, safety glasses”. So the next week on New Yankee, Norm was visibly upset and had a special little talk before his show on safety and how it’s not a joke. Consequently, and I’m not sure it was a coincidence, The Woodwrights Shop was off the air for at least a couple weeks.

So what does this have to do with LODO? LODO appears to have have the backing of science and industry as well as an air of the future of home brewing. Conversely, bottling beer, open transferring and not considering HSA seem to me more like the old way. Like Roy, I think it’s funny the extent people go to to make commercial grade Norm Abrahms beer in their garage, when I think that my Roy Underhill beer is a superior product if only because it is more like the old ways.

Also, like the little spat that I perceived Norm and Roy had, I think that the homebrew community acknowledges that LODO at least sounds good and elitists have a way of being really loud and convincing. Personally, I’d be more likely convinced to try lambic open fermentation then to do LODO. Roy beer is just better beer than Norm beer and I fully expect to have my broadcast shut down for saying so.

This reminds me of what I keep reminding myself to keep from getting to serious and stay fun. If monks in the 9th century could brew beer worth selling, then I should have no problems with my meger setup.

I like my woodwright beer too.

RDWHAHB

 

[RPh_Guy]

What does Lodo and the Lord of the Rings have to do with beer?

Lodo Baggins enjoys a fine ale from time to time.

I don't have an opinion either way on LODO brewing since I'm not sure whether I've had a LODO beer.

My brews are superior to available commercial examples and I enjoy making them. As a side benefit I also save huge sums of money.
That's what matters to me!

 

[Bilsch]

If Roy cut himself in the wood shop, did he just rub a little dirt in the wound.. or make a poultice if it got infected? You know, the the old ways?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

If Roy cut himself in the wood shop, did he just rub a little dirt in the wound.. or make a poultice if it got infected? You know, the the old ways?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to technology. Maltsers, yeast manufacturers and chemical companies like Starsan have made it much easier to consistently make good beer. That is where the real science has come to homebrewers.

If you read A Treatise On The Brewing of Beer, you will be hard pressed to find bad advice from E. Hughes. He wrote it in 1796. I’m not sure what science he was privy to, but after having read it 3 or 4 times and considering his recommendations, the only real fault I can find in it are his recommendations for making small beer better. He says, and I’m paraphrasing, “if you make the small beer better, your farm hands will treat it with more care and drink it slower.” Everyone knows the better the beer, the faster it kicks. I think that it just pained Mr. Hughes to see bad beer get made.

It is a real pitfall these days to think that because it has been measured with a scientific instrument that we have moved beyond superstition.

 

[Bilsch]

I think that it just pained Mr. Hughes to see bad beer get made.

Me too brother. Me too.

I must say, that was an enjoyable read.

"I do not presume to dictate to those who are proficients; but it must be acknowleged that good malt is frequently marred in brewing by persons who have very little or no knowlege of brewing, and I flatter myself that by a perusal of this treatise it will enable them to be more competent in making the best of the malt intrusted to their care, to the greater satisfaction and benefit of their employers."

 

[divrack]

I've made a proposal to the international space station for an opportunity to brew in space. It's the only way we'll settle this business.

 

[Bilsch]

How many LODO brewers in this thread measure DO at all stages through the process?

I have a DO meter and right after the purchase I used it a lot. Now that all the leaks and bad process have been eliminated and I'm comfortable with my system, it rarely comes out of the cabinet anymore.

 

[bob1852]

I have a DO meter and right after the purchase I used it a lot. Now that all the leaks and bad process have been eliminated and I'm comfortable with my system, it rarely comes out of the cabinet anymore.

What processes resulted in your biggest DO reductions on hot side and cold side?

DO is such a pesky thing....if you reduce it, it wants to get right back in.

 

[Bilsch]

What processes resulted in your biggest DO reductions on hot side and cold side?

DO is such a pesky thing....if you reduce it, it wants to get right back in.

That's an easy one to answer. On the hot side, preboiling the strike water and using an active scavenger. On the cold side, without a doubt, spunding.

 

[wiggybrewer]

I would eagerly jump on the LODO bandwagon if someone with credibility published a book explaining how and why it is worth the time, money, and effort. Credibility in this case, to me, means a high-profile expert in homebrewing, who would be able to articulate the improvements in beer quality beyond this "it" factor nonsense.

Until that day comes, its all horsehockey and I'll continue to kick LODO sandcastles when someone just starting out comes here looking for advice and is told to focus on this superstitious nonsense instead of looking at other obvious areas. I guess its the blind faith part that drives me up the wall; the same reason I won't willingly set foot in a church.

Amen!

 

[Bilsch]

When the information is contradictory, what should you believe.. accredited brewing science or homebrew experts?

 

[bob1852]

When the information is contradictory, what should you believe.. accredited brewing science or homebrew experts?

I'll continue to believe that taste is highly subjective.

And I'll continue to believe the MANY pro brewers that I've talked to that don't worry about DO on the hot side....

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Kunze needs to shut the up and stop being a pain in my ass.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I never use oxygen in my brewing, so I'd say my brewing process is ultra low oxygen. Produces very excellent results. Count me on board!

I also don't use any CO2, so it's LODO AND LODCO!

 

[Bilsch]

I'll continue to believe that taste is highly subjective.

And I'll continue to believe the MANY pro brewers that I've talked to that don't worry about DO on the hot side....

I dont think any lodo advocates, myself included, would disagree with these statements.

 

[radwizard]

There is a fine line between LODO and True Beer.

 

[Murphys_Law]

There is a fine line between LODO and True Beer.

There is True Beer and then everything else!

Nothing approaches the awesomeness of True Beer!

 

[aeviaanah]

Bump

 

[ba-brewer]

If you want to get a good example of what low oxygen flavors are, try to find a reasonably fresh Bitburger or Radeberger in a can.

Found a can of Bitburger, with a date code of 2018 03 22 and second 2019 03 22. Does this qualify as reasonably fresh?

edit: drank the beer, first sip had a slight sherry like flavor, a few more sips maybe a honey like flavor and aroma. The beer does seem a bit sweet and not as bitter as the pilsners I brew. Guessing this one is past it's prime or was poorly stored.

 

[Bilsch]

I guess that depends on the definition of reasonably.
So this was made about 6 months ago and stored in the hottest months of the year. Could be good or maybe not depending on how it was cared for. More often then not though the Bit I get is good. Your nose should tell you pretty quickly if you got a good one. Should smell like fresh noble hops and ripe grain fields after a light rain. That's the best way I can describe it.