A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[ba-brewer]

I don't need to worry about LODO, I live in a big city with poor air quality. I also have a high ruffage diet so I work in a methane rich environment.


I have followed the LODO thread since pretty early on mostly out of curiousity and partially for the drama, but have never tried brewing LODO. I am opened minded that the process produced improvements in the peoples beer. I plan to try it some day but I am nervous the "it" flavor is the same raw grainy flavor I wait to go away before I drink my beer.

 

[bob1852]

How is this so difficult?

Let me add more variables...

Distilled water source, 100% accurate measurements of grains, hops, yeast, water volume, water mineral additons, mash temps, mash pH, mash volume, sparge temp and voume, pre-boil volume, boil off rate, post boil volume, chilling process, fermenter dimensions, post fermentation process, bottling/kegging process, etc., etc...

Sorry, if a recipe and LODO (or no LODO) were the only variables, it would be much easier to clone beers.

Give 10 brewers the same recipe and you'll wind up with 10 different beers...

 

[Sadu]

I thought the brulosophy experiment was well designed and I didn't see any process issues in the experiment, other than the amounts of MBS used. Unfortunately the LODO beer came out sulfury and it turns out that people don't prefer sulfur.
So the experiment while interesting, is not an endorsement of non-lodo being better. It says that sulfur is not desirable in beer which we already know.
It does suggest that making a non-sulfury LODO beer can be a bit of a challenge.
I concur with this, my first LODO batch has mild sulfur on the nose which detracts from an otherwise excellent lager. I think I took it off the yeast too soon, so that is a process thing to work on.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Let me add more variables...

Distilled water source, 100% accurate measurements of grains, hops, yeast, water volume, water mineral additons, mash temps, mash pH, mash volume, sparge temp and voume, pre-boil volume, boil off rate, post boil volume, chilling process, fermenter dimensions, post fermentation process, bottling/kegging process, etc., etc...

So what you're telling me is that there are many variables that effect the beers final taste? What??? Why is it that all these things you list can be accepted as variables that contribute to the final product, but LODO is considered hocus-pocus without any effects? Maybe it isn't until you control all other variables will LODO make any difference? Who knows honestly...

Once again, I don't LODO so I'm not arguing it's efficacy one way or another. Just trying to get some people to open their eyes to the possibility that maybe it does make a difference and they should try it if they are unsure...

Psst. I still perform decoctions on most my lagers, because I like the process and I feel it does make a difference. I can argue that because I've done it both ways, and I prefer decoctions. If I haven't tried both then my argument would be one of ignorance!

 

[bob1852]

So the experiment while interesting, is not an endorsement of non-lodo being better.

There's a common misconception that triangle tests are used to determine which beer (i.e. which variable) is better. That's just not what a triangle test is designed for.

All a sensory triangle test is designed for is to determine if perceivable difference between the samples exists, and to what statistical significance (i.e. are the tasters closer, or further, from random chance in their pick of the different sample).

 

[Sadu]

There's a common misconception that triangle tests are used to determine which beer (i.e. which variable) is better. That's just not what a triangle test is designed for.

All a sensory triangle test is designed for is to determine if perceivable difference between the samples exists, and to what statistical significance (i.e. are the tasters closer, or further, from random chance in their pick of the different sample).

OK sure. So in that case, the notes in the article indicate that tasters were differentiating the beers based on sulfur.

There may or may not have been differences in "fresh malt character" that the test was designed to highlight. the sulfur is an extra unwanted variable clouding things. That's how I understood things anyway.

 

[schematix]

I thought the brulosophy experiment was well designed and I didn't see any process issues in the experiment, other than the amounts of MBS used. Unfortunately the LODO beer came out sulfury and it turns out that people don't prefer sulfur.
So the experiment while interesting, is not an endorsement of non-lodo being better. It says that sulfur is not desirable in beer which we already know.
It does suggest that making a non-sulfury LODO beer can be a bit of a challenge.
I concur with this, my first LODO batch has mild sulfur on the nose which detracts from an otherwise excellent lager. I think I took it off the yeast too soon, so that is a process thing to work on.

You didn't see a difference in process when their 2 batches measured 1.044 OG vs 1.035 OG? How about when their mash was 2 degrees cooler in one sample?

The sulfur issue has long since been understood. You just have to oxygenate enough to get rid of the sulfites and problem solved. If you overdose sulfites and under oxygenate you will have some issues.

 

[Sadu]

You didn't see a difference in process when their 2 batches measured 1.044 OG vs 1.035 OG? How about when their mash was 2 degrees cooler in one sample?

I've experienced much lower efficiency than normal in my LODO batches. So yeah, if you use the same grain bill I'd expect the OG to be different. Would it have been better to account for that in the recipe design and try to get the same OG? Sure.
2 degrees difference in mash temperature happens. To be honest I appreciate their attempt at trying to triangle test this thing and I'm not going to pick at them for minor differences in mash temperature.

The sulfur issue has long since been understood. You just have to oxygenate enough to get rid of the sulfites and problem solved. If you overdose sulfites and under oxygenate you will have some issues.

OK fair enough, this could well explain the issue. I used the recommended starting dose of MBS (30ppm) and aerated very well with an electric drill + egg beater attachment like I always do. I don't have pure O2 available.

Without wanting to hijack the thread, would aerating regularly (with the drill and egg beater method) for the first few hours after pitching be a suitable alternative in your view? I can't justify the spend on an O2 setup at this stage.

 

[schematix]

I've experienced much lower efficiency than normal in my LODO batches. So yeah, if you use the same grain bill I'd expect the OG to be different. Would it have been better to account for that in the recipe design and try to get the same OG? Sure.
2 degrees difference in mash temperature happens. To be honest I appreciate their attempt at trying to triangle test this thing and I'm not going to pick at them for minor differences in mash temperature.

When I first starting doing low oxygen i experienced lower efficiencies due to 2 things.
1. There was initially a recommendation to not stir the mash after underletting. This is absolutely a mistake and the advice has been rescinded for a long time. One good gentle stir is enough if you recirculate. A couple are needed if you don't. Just go easy.

2. The grain that was available on the US market from European sources at the time "LODO" was published had an unusually high gelatinzation temp. Long story short, 145F wasn't warm enough to release the starch into solution. The 2 extra degrees was enough to release a lot more. Typically in good harvest years the gel temp is around 140F, but can sometimes be almost as high as 150F if there are hot and dry conditions.

I step mash and prior to low oxygen i was doing Hockhurz step mashes at 145/158 and didn't have any issues. Around the time i switched i had new grain and the same mash program gave me poor efficiency and really bad attenuation. After a lot of searching and consultation with some really smart people they suggested i monitor the extract during the mash. Sure enough if you're mashing in the 140s you'll see a plateau in your extract. Bumping even a couple degrees can make a huge difference. Single infusion mashing at 150 or above will get you the starches, but the beta amylase is gone by that point and you won't get the attenuation. So i added another mash step a few degrees hotter and all of a sudden both problems were solved. When i get new sacks of grain i monitor mash gravity at each step to determine how much of the extract i've been able to attain. I *always* get 100% conversion because i hit all the temps needed to get it.

OK fair enough, this could well explain the issue. I used the recommended starting dose of MBS (30ppm) and aerated very well with an electric drill + egg beater attachment like I always do. I don't have pure O2 available.

Without wanting to hijack the thread, would aerating regularly (with the drill and egg beater method) for the first few hours after pitching be a suitable alternative in your view? I can't justify the spend on an O2 setup at this stage.

It's very important you have 0 sulfites left when you're done. You don't want to pitch the yeast into them because they will absorb them and then you get the sulfur aroma that no one wants. Another option besides O2 is a small air pump with a filter. They are less than an O2 set up, but will still cost money.

Also 30ppm is on the higher end of the recommended spectrum. I have a pretty tight system and run 10 ppm, although i could do less. I can still smell the residual sulfites at the end of the boil but not after i oxygenate. Doesn't matter how much you use though, aside from the added sodium and sulfates, if you consume them all prior to pitching.

 

[Sadu]

It's very important you have 0 sulfites left when you're done. You don't want to pitch the yeast into them because they will absorb them and then you get the sulfur aroma that no one wants.
Also 30ppm is on the higher end of the recommended spectrum.

Thanks, that's actually really helpful. I think with all the required reading and new processes to learn I missed the part where an important purpose (primary purpose?) of aeration at pitching in a LODO brew was to remove the surplus sulfites. I just assumed that aeration was important, as it always has been, for healthy fermentation.

OK. So it sounds like my system has leftover sulfites at pitching time. Can I take this as an endorsement that my mash and boil procedures are pretty good for the amount of sulfites used? Put another way, if everything was getting splashed around and using up all the sulfites then I wouldn't be getting sulfur bombs right? So I'm thinking I should try next time with reduced sulfites (say 20ppm instead of 30ppm) and make sure that it gets a really decent aeration at pitching. I'll look into an air pump with filter, for now an extra hit with the drill might have to suffice.

 

[schematix]

OK. So it sounds like my system has leftover sulfites at pitching time. Can I take this as an endorsement that my mash and boil procedures are pretty good for the amount of sulfites used? Put another way, if everything was getting splashed around and using up all the sulfites then I wouldn't be getting sulfur bombs right? So I'm thinking I should try next time with reduced sulfites (say 20ppm instead of 30ppm) and make sure that it gets a really decent aeration at pitching. I'll look into an air pump with filter, for now an extra hit with the drill might have to suffice.

It's possible. The other sign of excess sulfites is sluggish fermentation. The best method is to get the sulfite test strips and make a pale beer. For now i'd say yah just aerate the best you can once the wort is chilled.

If you've made sure all of your fittings are leak proof and you used a mash cap then 10 ppm is more than enough.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Not trying something doesn’t make someone ignorant. There are other better ways to gather knowledge than trying it yourself. Though it seems counterintuitive, I can know that David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear. With the sensory information that I have available to me, I have to conclude that David Copperfield is a great magician which he is in the figurative sense, but everyone knows that it’s a trick and if I read accounts of people that were there and looked at unofficial photos of the scene, I would know exactly how the trick works. So getting the secondhand information is actually of more value than the first hand information. I believe that to be the case with LODO.

While I’m sure that Mongoose33 and Morrey both brew great beer, using their experience of LODO as a benchmark is faulted. Based on the exchange that they had, I would say they have positive feelings about each others brewing. Their feelings about each other would bias them. Even if they hated each other and thought they were terrible brewers, the expectation of getting pig swill and then having something drinkable could create a false positive. The only true testament would be a world class beer judge who had a perfect record proven palate that agrees with other world class beer judges in blind tests, but that’s not really realistic. So we have what we got and I think consensus is as good as anything else, so that’s why I started this, though I never thought we’d reach consensus, the discussion has helped me. Like passedpawn, the extra time, money and effort is not worth it to me at the moment. As far as does LODO make better beer all things considered, I can only know what I know and I don’t know.

 

[Pkrd]

Can you please keep your well informed opinions and useful practical advice to yourselves.

This is the Drunken Ramblings forums and we have standards to uphold!

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Brett can be as simple as pouring Orval dregs in the bottleing bucket. (Borrowing from BLAM).

The reason I’ve stayed away from brett is that I’ve heard it is hard to get out of your equipment and even then can sneak back in from hanging around in the fermentation chamber etc. and that even small amounts missed can bloom and take a conventional beer into brett land.

The reason I’m interested is a brewer here in Phoenix called Dubina had an all brett beer at Brewers Bowl a couple years ago and that beer is in the top 5 most delicious and memorable beers I’ve had.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Can you please keep your well informed opinions and useful practical advice to yourselves.

This is the Drunken Ramblings forums and we have standards to uphold!

Sorry, about that. I looooooove yooooouu man!!!

 

[Pkrd]

I love you too man. I love you as much as beer loves being oxygen free. Which is quite a lot really, or maybe nothing at all.

 

[murphyslaw]

It's very important you have 0 sulfites left when you're done. You don't want to pitch the yeast into them because they will absorb them and then you get the sulfur aroma that no one wants. Another option besides O2 is a small air pump with a filter. They are less than an O2 set up, but will still cost money.

I thought you are supposed to pitch, then aerate?

 

[mongoose33]

I thought you are supposed to pitch, then aerate?

I took an off-flavor workshop in July. We had a local professional brewer there, and I asked him about this. His answer? Pitch WHILE you aerate. His reasoning is it will help mix up the yeast in the wort.

So the consensus is, there's no consensus.

 

[schematix]

I took an off-flavor workshop in July. We had a local professional brewer there, and I asked him about this. His answer? Pitch WHILE you aerate. His reasoning is it will help mix up the yeast in the wort.

So the consensus is, there's no consensus.

1. Professional not likely using sulfites I would assume.

2. In larger tanks I could see this being advantageous.

Both are issues of scale. What works for 1G doesn’t always work for 5G doesn’t always work for 10G, 1 BBL, 100 hL, etc.

The key takeaway is don’t expose yeast to sulfites, even for a moment.

 

[mongoose33]

1. Professional not likely using sulfites I would assume.

2. In larger tanks I could see this being advantageous.

Both are issues of scale. What works for 1G doesn’t always work for 5G doesn’t always work for 10G, 1 BBL, 100 hL, etc.

The key takeaway is don’t expose yeast to sulfites, even for a moment.

Hmmm....I'm using Campden Tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) as part of the strike water to act as an oxygen scavenger. I've been doing that for....well, the last 10 batches or so. I don't see any negatives as to my yeast, so I'm not clear on what you're referring to. I have funny holes in my knowledge; would you elaborate?

 

[bob1852]

For discussing LODO, there's an awful lot of aeration/oxygenation talk going on.

 

[Bassman2003]

Usually, the homebrewing community embraces new approaches or finding out the real, best way to do things. I have been brewing for over 15 years and am interested in learning more all of the time. Somehow, some folks must have become offended along the way to be anti-LODO.

But let me step back and address the OP's first post. To me, LODO is about German beer. Plain and simple. If you like helles, hefeweizen, dunkle or pils, then LODO is the style of brewing. I think it is odd for somebody who has never been to Germany to comment on these things. The German brewing tradition has always been about finding out the absolute best methods to make the best beer. One of the times at Oktoberfest, we were at the Augustiner tent and the locals at our table were telling us that all workers at the brewery have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to not divulge any information about the brewery or techniques. For me, it is plain as day, LODO is the main secret to German beer. These four styles just taste so much better in Germany. (they get killed a bit coming across the ocean though).

So I would say open your mind a bit more. If you brew IPAs the LODO will probably not make that big of a difference. If you want to have Augustiner Brau at home, then it is probably the way to go imho.

 

[Bilsch]

Yea I don't get the hate either. Brewing low oxygen is another valuble asset in the brewers tool box as are sanitation, yeast management, water chemistry, temperature control, good cold side practices etc. None of these skills are innate but must be learned and practiced if you want to make the best beer possible. On the other hand none of them are strictly required if your goal is fizzy alcohol hop water.

 

[schematix]

So I would say open your mind a bit more. If you brew IPAs the LODO will probably not make that big of a difference. If you want to have Augustiner Brau at home, then it is probably the way to go imho.

Actually IPAs are dramaticaly improved. I've had kegs last 5 months and the last pours were still 90% fresh going into the last pours. Look around here and you'll see a lot of people asking why their IPAs are dead after a couple weeks. Hint: it's oxidation.

 

[day_trippr]

Hmmm....I'm using Campden Tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) as part of the strike water to act as an oxygen scavenger. I've been doing that for....well, the last 10 batches or so. I don't see any negatives as to my yeast, so I'm not clear on what you're referring to. [...]?

It comes down to minimizing residual sulfites - ideally to zero ppb - prior to pitching. As he mentioned a few posts back one way to do that is through oxygenation of the cooled, pre-pitched wort, presumably to a sufficient level to have burned up all the Na/K-meta...

Cheers!

 

[Iseneye]

Actually IPAs are dramaticaly improved. I've had kegs last 5 months and the last pours were still 90% fresh going into the last pours. Look around here and you'll see a lot of people asking why their IPAs are dead after a couple weeks. Hint: it's oxidation.

A friend and I brewed the same hoppy pale ale recipe but he brewed non-LODO (same grain bill, same OG, same yeast, same hops from same brewstore, same pH, same water chemistry). Three of us did a triangle test and were able to pick up the odd one out. My LODO beer was hoppier and had a stronger nose. Almost like smelling and drinking tropical fruit juice. His beer was muted and had less hop character. So yes, IMHO and experience LODO is great for pale ales.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Usually, the homebrewing community embraces new approaches or finding out the real, best way to do things. I have been brewing for over 15 years and am interested in learning more all of the time. Somehow, some folks must have become offended along the way to be anti-LODO.

But let me step back and address the OP's first post. To me, LODO is about German beer. Plain and simple. If you like helles, hefeweizen, dunkle or pils, then LODO is the style of brewing. I think it is odd for somebody who has never been to Germany to comment on these things. The German brewing tradition has always been about finding out the absolute best methods to make the best beer. One of the times at Oktoberfest, we were at the Augustiner tent and the locals at our table were telling us that all workers at the brewery have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to not divulge any information about the brewery or techniques. For me, it is plain as day, LODO is the main secret to German beer. These four styles just taste so much better in Germany. (they get killed a bit coming across the ocean though).

So I would say open your mind a bit more. If you brew IPAs the LODO will probably not make that big of a difference. If you want to have Augustiner Brau at home, then it is probably the way to go imho.

It’s exactly this that gives me that gut feeling that LODO isn’t the next breakthrough.

I’d love to go to Germany and enjoy German beer in an Oktoberfest tent, but not having been doesn’t necessarily make me ignorant.

I have had a Trumer Pils in the View Lounge atop the San Francisco Marriot Marquis. Trumer uses prime Austrian ingredients, and is overseen by Lars Larson who trained to brew Germany. I’m sure it is a great example of German beer brewed right here in America, but the bottle I had tasted a lot like a skunks ass. Trumer comes in a green bottle and my bottle had certainly been light struck. Meanwhile at the table next to us there’s a guy swilling bottle after bottle of skunk ass beer telling his table about this marvelous beer that might as well have teleported directly from Germany. So you’ll excuse me if I don’t trust someone’s experience saying because they’ve been there they know.

You may be a certified cicerone and I’m sure you had great beer at Oktoberfest in Germany, but also you are as susceptible to bias as anyone else. To not acknowledge that fact and take your own experience with a grain of salt is to be the ignorant one.

 

[aeviaanah]

You can do the cold side processes without the hot. You'll still see an improvement in the flavor stability of your beers.

^this +1

 

[bob1852]

A friend and I brewed the same hoppy pale ale recipe but he brewed non-LODO (same grain bill, same OG, same yeast, same hops from same brewstore, same pH, same water chemistry). Three of us did a triangle test and were able to pick up the odd one out. My LODO beer was hoppier and had a stronger nose. Almost like smelling and drinking tropical fruit juice. His beer was muted and had less hop character. So yes, IMHO and experience LODO is great for pale ales.

So you administered the triangle test to yourselves while knowing the variable?

Also, out of curiosity, what were both of your post fermentation processes? Dry hopping? If so, headspace? Kegs or bottles? Conditioning temp/time? Chilling before serving? Serving temp?

ALL of these things can have perceptible influences on beer.....along with oxidation, regardless of LODO techniques or not....

 

[schematix]

there are just some things that are so blatantly obvious one does not need a triangle, or any other test besides your own senses to tell you something big has happened.

low oxygen executed correctly is so blatantly obvious of a difference that its pointless to do a triangle test.

 

[Bilsch]

I have had a Trumer Pils in the View Lounge atop the San Francisco Marriot Marquis. Trumer uses prime Austrian ingredients, and is overseen by Lars Larson who trained to brew Germany. I’m sure it is a great example of German beer brewed right here in America, but the bottle I had tasted a lot like a skunks ass. Trumer comes in a green bottle and my bottle had certainly been light struck. Meanwhile at the table next to us there’s a guy swilling bottle after bottle of skunk ass beer telling his table about this marvelous beer that might as well have teleported directly from Germany. So you’ll excuse me if I don’t trust someone’s experience saying because they’ve been there they know.

Definitely with you on the Trumer thing. I've had it several times in the bay area and it always was disappointing. I have been to Germany many times and know a good lodo beer when I taste (smell) it and sadly this wasn't it. If you want to get a good example of what low oxygen flavors are, try to find a reasonably fresh Bitburger or Radeberger in a can. I get a feeling though that you really don't want to know what lodo is but instead rather sit at your keyboard and snipe.

 

[schematix]

try to find a reasonably fresh Bitburger or Radeberger in a can.

I am going to attempt to take this thread off topic.

I won't buy beer in bottles anymore because of light and cap oxygen ingress, unless there is a clear date stamp on the bottle and it's less than a month old. In practice this means i almost never buy bottled beer.

Bottled beer is potentially a very inferior if its handled less than perfectly. All beer should be canned. Bottles are for liquor.

Discuss.

 

[Bassman2003]

It’s exactly this that gives me that gut feeling that LODO isn’t the next breakthrough.

I’d love to go to Germany and enjoy German beer in an Oktoberfest tent, but not having been doesn’t necessarily make me ignorant.

I have had a Trumer Pils in the View Lounge atop the San Francisco Marriot Marquis. Trumer uses prime Austrian ingredients, and is overseen by Lars Larson who trained to brew Germany. I’m sure it is a great example of German beer brewed right here in America, but the bottle I had tasted a lot like a skunks ass. Trumer comes in a green bottle and my bottle had certainly been light struck. Meanwhile at the table next to us there’s a guy swilling bottle after bottle of skunk ass beer telling his table about this marvelous beer that might as well have teleported directly from Germany. So you’ll excuse me if I don’t trust someone’s experience saying because they’ve been there they know.

You may be a certified cicerone and I’m sure you had great beer at Oktoberfest in Germany, but also you are as susceptible to bias as anyone else. To not acknowledge that fact and take your own experience with a grain of salt is to be the ignorant one.

I thought this thread was a little off, but your reply makes me sure you just want to tangle with people. Sir, you are ignorant about German beer if you have never been to Germany. The term "Ignorant" is not necessarily negative. It just means you do not know something. We are all ignorant about many things. It is when we speak on topics of which we are ignorant when the problems arise...

So you do not trust other's opinions'. That is fine. Just do not try to discredit others just because you are uncomfortable.

I do not see the reasoning for your use of the term bias. Bias as in convincing oneself that a certain beer has to be better than another? It just does not fit here. I am fortunate to have travelled a lot in my life and have been sampling as many beers as possible along the way. I see it as exposure to many different styles and brands. Certainly that would help one make a more informed decision or judgement about a beer wouldn't it? As opposed to never being exposed and making a judgement, right?

They all have their place. West coast IPAs to dunkles weissbeir in Stuttgart. You can trust me to say, they all taste better at the source. There is something special about Belgium and Germany though. The beer is so much better over there than when they come here.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Definitely with you on the Trumer thing. I've had it several times in the bay area and it always was disappointing. I have been to Germany many times and know a good lodo beer when I taste (smell) it and sadly this wasn't it. If you want to get a good example of what low oxygen flavors are, try to find a reasonably fresh Bitburger or Radeberger in a can. I get a feeling though that you really don't want to know what lodo is but instead rather sit at your keyboard and snipe.

We have a great little restaurant here in Scottsdale called Brat Haus. I’ve had Bitburger there and thought it was quite good. It was on tap. I’ve had several German beers there and enjoyed them all very much.

I wouldn’t mind becoming aquatinted with LODO and be able to recognize it, if that is in fact possible. The way it’s talked about though... If it tastes so different then there should be people who have been to Germany, tried several examples of LODO and don’t like it for exactly the same reasons that LODO fans purport liking it. I may love Metallica because it has a gritty modal sound and my neighbor might hate Metallica because of its gritty modal sound.

To compare apples to apples. NEIPA is a huge fad and has certain prescribed processes that are suggested to get that perfect juicy mouthfeel and big pronounced hop character. I’ve had a Treehouse Orange Julius and I believe that it delivers. I’m not sure you have to use barbarian and put in the hops at high krausen to get the bio transformation, but there are few that have tried a well made NEIPA that wouldn’t agree that it delivers what it promises. Further, I have seen posts on here where real beer guys say they don’t like NEIPA. My wife’s an IPA person and is unimpressed by NEIPA.

LODO on the other hand only has promoters. This suggests to me that, the LODO difference if any is negligible AND the process has created its own buzz through community and the need for us as people to belong and feel cool.

Having said that now, I fully expect to see a post or two in the near future that says, “I’ve tried LODO, there’s definitely a difference, but I didn’t really like it much.”

In fairness, on this thread there was one guy who said something to that effect earlier, but he admitted that he didn’t know if what displeased him was the “it” factor that people are talking about.

 

[Bilsch]

I wonder if right now there are a Germans in a forum called something like 'American Beer Flavor' arguing the existence of "juicy hop it" taste in NEIPA's they have had on trips to the states. That would be some cool alternate universe stuff.

 

[schematix]

LODO on the other hand only has promoters. This suggests to me that, the LODO difference if any is negligible AND the process has created its own buzz through community and the need for us as people to belong and feel cool.

The reality is that the large commercial brewers all over the world we all know and love to hate because they are large have a low oxygen process. They don't do it because they think they are part of a cool club. They do it because it makes a better product. The don't call it LODO or anything else. They just know oxygen is detrimental to beer and they design their breweries to exclude it. It's just another line item on a specification of many things that need to be done to make a cleaner tasting beverage.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I thought this thread was a little off, but your reply makes me sure you just want to tangle with people. Sir, you are ignorant about German beer if you have never been to Germany. The term "Ignorant" is not necessarily negative. It just means you do not know something. We are all ignorant about many things. It is when we speak on topics of which we are ignorant when the problems arise...

So you do not trust other's opinions'. That is fine. Just do not try to discredit others just because you are uncomfortable.

I do not see the reasoning for your use of the term bias. Bias as in convincing oneself that a certain beer has to be better than another? It just does not fit here. I am fortunate to have travelled a lot in my life and have been sampling as many beers as possible along the way. I see it as exposure to many different styles and brands. Certainly that would help one make a more informed decision or judgement about a beer wouldn't it? As opposed to never being exposed and making a judgement, right?

They all have their place. West coast IPAs to dunkles weissbeir in Stuttgart. You can trust me to say, they all taste better at the source. There is something special about Belgium and Germany though. The beer is so much better over there than when they come here.

I’m not here to tangle. I have no problem with any process that brewers use to make better beer. You called me ignorant and so I called you ignorant back. I think we are both right in that regard.

Most people, I’m sure would agree that going to Germany and drinking a lot of German beer is a good way to gain knowledge of that product. Where I took issue was having that fact on your side, you purport yourself an authority or expert. It has been my experience that experts in contradiction with the definition of the word have the most flawed knowledge of anyone knowing anything about something.

We are in agreement though that beer often tastes better at its source.

 

[Bilsch]

We have a great little restaurant here in Scottsdale called Brat Haus. I’ve had Bitburger there and thought it was quite good. It was on tap. I’ve had several German beers there and enjoyed them all very much.

I grew up near Milwaukee and so had many a memorable trip to the German restaurants and experiences with the beer and food in my formative years. It was exactly these things that drove my foray into homebrewing in the mid 80's. If you can't always can get them, you can just brew them yourself.. right? The sobering reality is it's damn difficult if not impossible to do with the information that's normally available to homebrewers. I mean you read all the time, on this forum and others, where some new brewer pops in and wants to make a Budweiser clone. Should be simple right? Whats the advice generally given?
Isn't it just possible that for certain beer styles you need to up your game, switch it up, do something different, break out your copy of Kunze, you know.. try to reduce oxygen exposure on the hot side?
Anyway for me it was the only thing in 30 years of trying that produced the results I was looking for and I'm so glad that the Beerery kicked the door open and tossed the lodo grenade up in here. (maybe it was AHA forum)

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I grew up near Milwaukee and so had many a memorable trip to the German restaurants and experiences with the beer and food in my formative years. It was exactly these things that drove my foray into homebrewing in the mid 80's. If you can't always can get them, you can just brew them yourself.. right? The sobering reality is it's damn difficult if not impossible to do with the information that's normally available to homebrewers. I mean you read all the time, on this forum and others, where some new brewer pops in and wants to make a Budweiser clone. Should be simple right? Whats the advice generally given?
Isn't it just possible that for certain beer styles you need to up your game, switch it up, do something different, break out your copy of Kunze, you know.. try to reduce oxygen exposure on the hot side?
Anyway for me it was the only thing in 30 years of trying that produced the results I was looking for and I'm so glad that the Beerery kicked the door open and tossed the lodo grenade up in here. (maybe it was AHA forum)

I was at an airport in Taiwan, sitting at a bar and a German guy sat down a few seats from me and ordered regular bud. I was talking to him and he said that he prefers Budweiser over German beers. I thought it was funny like, “Who likes Budweiser over German beers?” Well, that guy I guess.

In all seriousness, I’m glad you were finally able to recreate those beers of your youth.

 

[Iseneye]

So you administered the triangle test to yourselves while knowing the variable?

Also, out of curiosity, what were both of your post fermentation processes? Dry hopping? If so, headspace? Kegs or bottles? Conditioning temp/time? Chilling before serving? Serving temp?

ALL of these things can have perceptible influences on beer.....along with oxidation, regardless of LODO techniques or not....

Post-fermentation - both dry hopping.
Headspace - we both brewed the same volume of beer and we both kegged.
Conditioning temp - we brewed a week apart and then had them in kegerators from then on.
Chilling before serving - They were both served at same temperature.

We weren't doing a full on rigorous scientific test as it was for fun and not a brewers journal. One person served the other two beers blind and we then swapped servers several times. I'm more than happy to accept criticism but the basis of it was for fun.

I understand the resistance to LODO. I was in that camp when reading about it thinking what a load of crap and hard work for something that probably doesn't make a difference. Also the initial proponents of it were rather blunt in discussing non-LODO beers which put me off. I then tried it myself and what do you know it made a difference. Once you taste the difference you can easily pick it up in non LODO beers.

Out of interest what did we all argue about before LODO? Secondary or not to secondary? Decoctions? 5.2 stabilizer? Bottling vs Kegging? There's always going to be a contentious topic and LODO is flavour of the month.