Ok, thanks. Than it will be 0.2g/l gypsum and 0.1g/l calcium chloride. I saw that my cousin level is quite low. What's the effect of sodium in brewing water?
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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Paired with chloride at low levels it sweetens. Try adding a wee bit of table salt to a glass of beer. Obviously at higher levels it starts to taste salty but look at the salt content of some of the carbonated water products sold. It is quite high and there, I believe, to offset the sourness of the carbonic acid.
Ok, could have eplained that to myself actually... Kind of the same thing it does to sweet stuff like cake and so on, a little bit is acting like a flavour enhancer, too much gets salty.
Could someone explain the "add 2% sauermalz to the grist" part of this post? Does that mean I adjust my other malt/grain percentages in a given recipe to account for the 2% sauermalz that I add?
So say I am brewing this recipe for a 5.5 gallon batch:
6 lbs 2 row
2.5lb white wheat
.5lb flaked wheat
.25lb honey malt
How would I adjust that recipe to account for the 2% sauermalz?
So say I am brewing this recipe for a 5.5 gallon batch:
6 lbs 2 row
2.5lb white wheat
.5lb flaked wheat
.25lb honey malt
How would I adjust that recipe to account for the 2% sauermalz?
Just add 2% of the total malt bill as Sauermalz. The way A.J. has explained it in the past, the difference either way is not significant enough to matter a great deal.
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Ah ok that makes sense, thanks for the clarification.
dmcmillen
Well-Known Member
I have read the first few pages of this post, but not all, so I apologize upfront if I am asking what has already been covered; there's a few years of posts here.
1st of all, based on the initial water recommendations, I should be diluting my existing water profile of Alk 98 (Bicarb 119), So4 9, Cl 4, Na 28, Ca 9, and Mg 4 by 2:1 of DI water. Is that correct?
The recommendations of adding CaCl and/or Gypsum to a 5 gal batch for different styles, does that mean I split the addition proportionately between the mash water and the sparge water or is the addition intended for just the mash?
I do have a pH meter (MW102) and can perform a test mash. Before I came across this Primer post, I was planning on making the mash additions based on Bru'n Water recommendations and then adjusting accordingly or would it be better to make these primer additions to the test mash first, or not make any additons. I am assuming that Bru'n Water is pretty accurate at calculating desired mineral additions.
Right now, I'm just trying to figure out my initial starting point/approach to the chemisty will be when I start a new brew. So far my experience without doing a test mash is that I'm not even close to the estimated pH from Bru'n Water. (+- .2 -.3) which I now understand is not unusual at all. I suppose I went into the water chemistry thinking that this was an exact science; just plug the numbers into a spreadsheet of choice, add the recommendations and wallah, you hit your numbers. Well, after being sufficiently humbled, I believe I'm getting a better feel for the "science" and the "art", much of the art being what our individual tastes are. Most of that education I can thank AJ and his tireless devotion to this forum.
Maybe opening up a hornets nest here, but related to the subject of mineral additions, is there any value to targeting a mineral profile for a particular style or specific brew. Bru'n Water has a lot of different mineral profiles and you can find tons of these on the internet. How about the Sulfate to Chloride ratio? How important are the mineral levels compared to getting the pH right?
1st of all, based on the initial water recommendations, I should be diluting my existing water profile of Alk 98 (Bicarb 119), So4 9, Cl 4, Na 28, Ca 9, and Mg 4 by 2:1 of DI water. Is that correct?
The recommendations of adding CaCl and/or Gypsum to a 5 gal batch for different styles, does that mean I split the addition proportionately between the mash water and the sparge water or is the addition intended for just the mash?
I do have a pH meter (MW102) and can perform a test mash. Before I came across this Primer post, I was planning on making the mash additions based on Bru'n Water recommendations and then adjusting accordingly or would it be better to make these primer additions to the test mash first, or not make any additons. I am assuming that Bru'n Water is pretty accurate at calculating desired mineral additions.
Right now, I'm just trying to figure out my initial starting point/approach to the chemisty will be when I start a new brew. So far my experience without doing a test mash is that I'm not even close to the estimated pH from Bru'n Water. (+- .2 -.3) which I now understand is not unusual at all. I suppose I went into the water chemistry thinking that this was an exact science; just plug the numbers into a spreadsheet of choice, add the recommendations and wallah, you hit your numbers. Well, after being sufficiently humbled, I believe I'm getting a better feel for the "science" and the "art", much of the art being what our individual tastes are. Most of that education I can thank AJ and his tireless devotion to this forum.
Maybe opening up a hornets nest here, but related to the subject of mineral additions, is there any value to targeting a mineral profile for a particular style or specific brew. Bru'n Water has a lot of different mineral profiles and you can find tons of these on the internet. How about the Sulfate to Chloride ratio? How important are the mineral levels compared to getting the pH right?
Bru’n Water is pretty accurate. If you didn’t even get close something went wrong with either your entries or with your brewing. Double back and review your process to try to figure out what it is.
This thread is often mistaken for a water help thread. You should either choose the detailed route with bru’n water or the simple approach this thread gives you. Both can work.
Errors of ±0.2 - 0.3 are quite common with any of the popular spreadsheets/calculators as their models of the acid/base properties of the malts are primitive. Much of the time, however, they are better than that. At the same time I would not term ±0.2 or even maybe ±0.3 "not even close".
00Seven
All-Terrain Brewing Company
I'm getting more into this. Next batch will start with RO and build up what I want. Question: what do you guys keep on hand as far as salts go? I have Gypsum and calcium chloride and tartaric acid. What else should I order to keep on hand? I don't mind spending 40-50 on salts and stuff if need be. Thanks
Maybe you want to add Epsom salt to it, but that should be about out.
I only have the two that you mentioned and did recently an experiment with the same wort, once with treatment and once without. I am convinced now that treatment somehow brings out positive aspects, at least in the hoppy lager I brewed. I will keep using those two salts with a focus on gypsum to bring the sulfate up to about 200 to 300 for my hoppy beers.
I only have the two that you mentioned and did recently an experiment with the same wort, once with treatment and once without. I am convinced now that treatment somehow brings out positive aspects, at least in the hoppy lager I brewed. I will keep using those two salts with a focus on gypsum to bring the sulfate up to about 200 to 300 for my hoppy beers.
Epsom Salt and non-iodized Calcium Chloride
Also recommend getting those little silica gel packets to keep the salts dry in their containers
In order of liklihood that you will actually use them:
1)Calcium chloride
2)Calcium sulfate
3)Sodium bicarbonate
4)Sodium chloride
5)Magnesium sulfate
6)Calcium hydroxide
7)Sodium hydroxide
8)Potassium hydroxide
9)Sodium sulfate
10)Magnesium chloride
11)Potassium chloride
The first 6 should cover almost everything. The latter 5 would be for those who obsess about getting within a percent ion concentration for a particular profile they have obtained somewhere.
Acids will be needed. In order of liklihood of use
1)Lactic
2)Phosphoric
3)Hydrochloric
3)Sulfuric
3)Blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric (AMS/CRS)
4)Citric
1)Calcium chloride
2)Calcium sulfate
3)Sodium bicarbonate
4)Sodium chloride
5)Magnesium sulfate
6)Calcium hydroxide
7)Sodium hydroxide
8)Potassium hydroxide
9)Sodium sulfate
10)Magnesium chloride
11)Potassium chloride
The first 6 should cover almost everything. The latter 5 would be for those who obsess about getting within a percent ion concentration for a particular profile they have obtained somewhere.
Acids will be needed. In order of liklihood of use
1)Lactic
2)Phosphoric
3)Hydrochloric
3)Sulfuric
3)Blend of hydrochloric and sulfuric (AMS/CRS)
4)Citric
leftcontact
Well-Known Member
Or the DI pH of one or all of the grains have changed.
For the same thing as the other acids which is to neutralize the bases in the malts you use and to convert bicarbonate ion (main source of alkalinity) in your water to CO2 thus neutralizing its alkalnity:
HLac + HCO3- ---> H2O + CO2 + Lac-
H3Cit + 2HCO3- ---> 2H2O + 2CO2 + HCit--
H3PO4 + HCO3- ---> H2O + CO2 + H2PO4-
HCl + HCO3- ---> H2O + CO2 + Cl-
H2SO4 + 2HCO3- ---> 2H2O + 2 CO2 + SO4--
Thus the portion of the acid that goes to neutralizing alkalinity in the water substitutes its anion for the bicarbonate ion. In the case of lactic and citric we recognize that if too much alkalinity needs to be neutralized that we will wind up with lactate or citrate ions above their flavor thresholds and so do not use them for excessively alkaline waters. Phosphate is more flavor neutral so we generally don't worry about how much of it we use unless the water is so hard that precipitation of calcium phosphates is likely. With hydrochloric and sulfuric acids we recognize that the anions are both stylistic ions. Where we need to get rid of alkalinity (from water and/or malt) and, at the same time, want to increase chloride or sulfate content these acids are obvious choices (in places where they can easily be obtained in food grade).
Forgive me if it was stated in one of the 38 pages, but where is the best place to get your water tested to see what amounts of minerals are in it? I have well water with a Gordon Water Filtration system installed and want to find out what's left in my water.
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
I've done 5 batches. First 2 extract partial boil, next one extract partial boil w campden tablets and late extract addition, next one full boil DME, next one grain BIAB. Now I'm diving into water profile and ordered lactic acid and various water additives after playing around with the Bru'n Water and EZ Water spreadsheets. I feel like I'm progressing pretty quickly, if I'm not making top quality beer soon I'll be pissed 
My wife saw me looking at the water spreadsheets last night and asked if I'd made spreadsheets to log my beers. No did that a long time ago, I downloaded these to figure build the optimal salt/mineral profile in my brewing water. She gave me a weird look, not sure if she's impressed or worried
My wife saw me looking at the water spreadsheets last night and asked if I'd made spreadsheets to log my beers. No did that a long time ago, I downloaded these to figure build the optimal salt/mineral profile in my brewing water. She gave me a weird look, not sure if she's impressed or worried
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
double post..
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This is a fantastic thread. I am fighting really hard well water, 402 HCO3 and 331 CaCO3 that is taxing my RO system, but that is a separate thread.
I am going to pilot run a 3711 saison using distilled water. 3 gal batch with 5 gal of strike water for full batch BIAB.
Was going to add 3g of calcium chloride (for the ca and cl accents) and 1.5 g of gypsum (for a touch of sulfate to balance the hops).
Grain bill is:
5.5# Vienna
.5# oats
.5# rice
2.5 oz acid malt (2%)
152F mash in temp
Hopped with williamettes to 23 IBU
Shooting for a crisp, dry clean beer (rice) and using oats for mouthfeel. But also set a baseline for mash ph and what this yeast profile is really like.
Am I getting this right?
Edit: So I mashed this and 20 min in my mash ph was 5.2. Nice.
Edit 2: Wow. My mash efficiency shot up 10 points higher than it's ever been with this setup to 85%. I'm a believer.
I am going to pilot run a 3711 saison using distilled water. 3 gal batch with 5 gal of strike water for full batch BIAB.
Was going to add 3g of calcium chloride (for the ca and cl accents) and 1.5 g of gypsum (for a touch of sulfate to balance the hops).
Grain bill is:
5.5# Vienna
.5# oats
.5# rice
2.5 oz acid malt (2%)
152F mash in temp
Hopped with williamettes to 23 IBU
Shooting for a crisp, dry clean beer (rice) and using oats for mouthfeel. But also set a baseline for mash ph and what this yeast profile is really like.
Am I getting this right?
Edit: So I mashed this and 20 min in my mash ph was 5.2. Nice.
Edit 2: Wow. My mash efficiency shot up 10 points higher than it's ever been with this setup to 85%. I'm a believer.
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What are the necessary mineral additions for RO or distilled water for successful fermentation / taste, regardless of style?
I just brewed my first batch with 100% RO water (the RO system I used is quite good I believe, at over 99% rejection rate), which was pale ale, 8 gallon. I added 9 and 2 g gypsum CaCl respectively, into the mash. The yeast was 1272 pitched from a decanted starter made from my moderately hard tap water. Ignoring style, was this enough minerals in general for yeast health, process, taste, etc.? I completely managed to forget about yeast nutrient, though it seems fermentation was fine, but it's still too early to know what the final product will taste like.
I just brewed my first batch with 100% RO water (the RO system I used is quite good I believe, at over 99% rejection rate), which was pale ale, 8 gallon. I added 9 and 2 g gypsum CaCl respectively, into the mash. The yeast was 1272 pitched from a decanted starter made from my moderately hard tap water. Ignoring style, was this enough minerals in general for yeast health, process, taste, etc.? I completely managed to forget about yeast nutrient, though it seems fermentation was fine, but it's still too early to know what the final product will taste like.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
@Andre3000 , with regard to flavor ions, there is no clear way to look at this from the perspective of "regardless of style".
The two most essential minerals are the two that you added.
For ales and many lagers it is generally recognized that roughly 50 ppm of calcium ions is beneficial from a process perspective, and 100 ppm is generally presumed to be closing in on the upper limit, after which your beer may begin to taste minerally (wherein there are admittedly some some who actually like more minerally tasting beers). Chloride and sulfate are the primary flavor ions. Chloride is added in the hope of accentuating maltiness, and sulfate is added in the hope of accentuating dryness and hoppiness. Sodium ions in moderation can lend smoothness without lending saltiness. Magnesium is not necessary, but if kept below about 20-30 ppm will not likely be noticed. For many beers the range of 40 ppm to 100 ppm is probably good for chloride, though some may go as high as ~125 ppm. Ditto for sulfate, though many beer styles (generally lagers) will taste just fine without any sulfate at all.
A very small amount of zinc is a necessary fermentation nutrient for yeast and some claim that it reduces harshness.
Depending upon its size, and how many gallons of water your pale ale recipe required overall, 9 grams of gypsum could be just fine or it could be quite excessive. Sulfate for specifically pale ales is generally targeted at about 125-150 ppm, though some prefer 200 ppm or a bit higher.
There are no hard and fast rules, and most of this comes down to personal preference.
The two most essential minerals are the two that you added.
For ales and many lagers it is generally recognized that roughly 50 ppm of calcium ions is beneficial from a process perspective, and 100 ppm is generally presumed to be closing in on the upper limit, after which your beer may begin to taste minerally (wherein there are admittedly some some who actually like more minerally tasting beers). Chloride and sulfate are the primary flavor ions. Chloride is added in the hope of accentuating maltiness, and sulfate is added in the hope of accentuating dryness and hoppiness. Sodium ions in moderation can lend smoothness without lending saltiness. Magnesium is not necessary, but if kept below about 20-30 ppm will not likely be noticed. For many beers the range of 40 ppm to 100 ppm is probably good for chloride, though some may go as high as ~125 ppm. Ditto for sulfate, though many beer styles (generally lagers) will taste just fine without any sulfate at all.
A very small amount of zinc is a necessary fermentation nutrient for yeast and some claim that it reduces harshness.
Depending upon its size, and how many gallons of water your pale ale recipe required overall, 9 grams of gypsum could be just fine or it could be quite excessive. Sulfate for specifically pale ales is generally targeted at about 125-150 ppm, though some prefer 200 ppm or a bit higher.
There are no hard and fast rules, and most of this comes down to personal preference.
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This is essentially what I was getting at, I just saw a thread that talked about zinc, and how it's essential to yeast health and I thought to myself, "I wonder what other essential minerals/additions I'm leaving out with the new RO system".
Does yeast nutrient provide zinc?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
BeerSavesLives
Active Member
I'm having an issue with this one.
I have been making a recipe for my first all-grain with BeerSmith.
Grain bill
6# Maris Otter
3# 6 Row
1.5# Crystal 60L
1# Flaked Oats
12oz Chocolate
8 oz Roasted Barley
12# 12oz Total
Mash Vol: 4.08 Gal Sparge Vol: 4.27 Gal
BeerSmith is giving me a an Unadjusted Mash pH of 5.44, which is nice (I think haha). 5.36 Mash pH after the Calcium Chloride addition mentioned in the post.
However, Bru'n Water, which I've been reading is more accurate in general, is giving me a crazy low unadjusted Mash pH of 4.91. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what there is such a large disparity. I have ensured my unit is set to gallons. My grain bill is correct. My water volumes are correct. And I have dilution set to 100% distilled. I can't figure out how to make it add Calcium Chloride only to the mash without it also suggesting it in the sparge but even so, if I'm starting at 4.91, adding that is just going to drop me further.
So my question is, do I go with bru'n and just boost up my water from the get go to combat the low mash pH. Or do I just go with this post's suggestion and hope that Bru'n is wrong?
Thank you for your time and help! =)
I have been making a recipe for my first all-grain with BeerSmith.
Grain bill
6# Maris Otter
3# 6 Row
1.5# Crystal 60L
1# Flaked Oats
12oz Chocolate
8 oz Roasted Barley
12# 12oz Total
Mash Vol: 4.08 Gal Sparge Vol: 4.27 Gal
BeerSmith is giving me a an Unadjusted Mash pH of 5.44, which is nice (I think haha). 5.36 Mash pH after the Calcium Chloride addition mentioned in the post.
However, Bru'n Water, which I've been reading is more accurate in general, is giving me a crazy low unadjusted Mash pH of 4.91. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what there is such a large disparity. I have ensured my unit is set to gallons. My grain bill is correct. My water volumes are correct. And I have dilution set to 100% distilled. I can't figure out how to make it add Calcium Chloride only to the mash without it also suggesting it in the sparge but even so, if I'm starting at 4.91, adding that is just going to drop me further.
So my question is, do I go with bru'n and just boost up my water from the get go to combat the low mash pH. Or do I just go with this post's suggestion and hope that Bru'n is wrong?
Thank you for your time and help! =)
Wouldnt you be more interested in knowing the predicted mash pH value based on recommended additions instead?
BeerSavesLives
Active Member
I mean, yes I would. However, with the giant disparity between the two calculations based on the same criteria, which program do I go off of? If I were to go off of recommended additions according to the program (which is the recommendations I assume you're talking about, and not the recommendations in the original post of this thread) BeerSmith would require small corrections to get a specific profile only as the pH is fine. Whereas, Bru'n water would require me to add some pickling lime or baking soda to boost my pH. Either way, I have to pick one and go with it. I was just wondering if someone had some insight as to why one is predicting way low while the other is predicting within a good range and how to deal with it.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
You didn't specify your calcium chloride addition quantity, but for a moderate CaCl2 addition, I'm going to call this one as mashing at ~5.2 pH. I can't imagine it coming in at 4.91 pH. I'd believe 5.36 before I'd believe 4.91.
At ~5.2 mash pH you shouldn't necessarily need to do any pH related treatment, unless you specifically desire the mash pH to be a bit higher intentionally.
PS: I'm willing to guess that up to 95+% of mash pH software assistant users don't check their mash pH because they (just as for you) have read that 'software product XXX' is always right under all circumstances. And then they go on to further perpetuate the myth since, hey, this is the internet, and whatever they say and we subsequently read on it is 100% guaranteed to be right. And as for those who do pH check, many take readings too early, say at 10-15 minutes into the mash (instead of the more appropriate 30 to 60 minute mark), and I believe that reading early often results in false low mash pH readings. Or worse yet, they use inadequate $10 class pH meters, or heaven forbid, pH paper. Or they apply a healthy dose of "confirmation bias".
PPS: Mineral additions to sparge water will not lower mash pH, since the mash is completed by that juncture.
At ~5.2 mash pH you shouldn't necessarily need to do any pH related treatment, unless you specifically desire the mash pH to be a bit higher intentionally.
PS: I'm willing to guess that up to 95+% of mash pH software assistant users don't check their mash pH because they (just as for you) have read that 'software product XXX' is always right under all circumstances. And then they go on to further perpetuate the myth since, hey, this is the internet, and whatever they say and we subsequently read on it is 100% guaranteed to be right. And as for those who do pH check, many take readings too early, say at 10-15 minutes into the mash (instead of the more appropriate 30 to 60 minute mark), and I believe that reading early often results in false low mash pH readings. Or worse yet, they use inadequate $10 class pH meters, or heaven forbid, pH paper. Or they apply a healthy dose of "confirmation bias".
PPS: Mineral additions to sparge water will not lower mash pH, since the mash is completed by that juncture.
BeerSavesLives
Active Member
The calcium chloride addition is simply what the original post in this thread said to get a base line, 1 tsp. Didn't add the saur as that's what it said for dark beers. As I said in my first post, this will be my first all-grain so water is not something I previously had to really worry about. I've been reading a bit to at least give myself some base knowledge. I have seen a lot of people in these forums suggest that Bru'n Water is the best calculator as it has very low margins of error when they actually take their pH readings. I, as you have said, have a hard time believing that my mash pH would drop down so low especially since my grain bill is not heavy on the roast grain side (from my short readings I believe that roasts add more acidity).
I don't want to completely rely on these calculator programs I was just hoping to get at least a jumping off point or general ballpark as the process of changing pH during a mash seems a little daunting. Check within 10-15 mins like you stated, and then try to correct it from there. But by the time you've made additions and check the ph level again half of the mash is over for a single step mash. I just don't want to spend all of the money and have my first beer turn into garbage because I wasn't prepared you know?
I don't want to completely rely on these calculator programs I was just hoping to get at least a jumping off point or general ballpark as the process of changing pH during a mash seems a little daunting. Check within 10-15 mins like you stated, and then try to correct it from there. But by the time you've made additions and check the ph level again half of the mash is over for a single step mash. I just don't want to spend all of the money and have my first beer turn into garbage because I wasn't prepared you know?
What color in Lovibond are you entering for the Roasted Barley and the Chocolate malt? Knowing that would be helpful.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
There is no use trying to check what will almost inevitably be an incorrect pH early on (at ~10-15 minutes in) and then trying to correct the pH from there. The mash is most likely nearly done (if not fully done) by about 20 minutes, and almost certainly (except for recipes with borderline diastatic enzyme power) done at 30 minutes (thus the sound reason to check for a valid mash pH only at or post 30 minutes). If the mash is done by the time you get the 10 minute sample cooled to room temperature and get a "stable" pH reading (which may require leaving the pH probe in the sample for a few minutes) there is no changing what enzymatic action has already taken place within the mash environment of an off kilter pH by post mash adjustment of the pH. And at the 10 minute mark you will have no means of knowing if your samples pH is truly off kilter or not, but odd are good that it will be. So as a consequence if your 10 minute pH reading is wrong, how can that become a reliable baseline for correction? You have to know where you are at in order to get where you want to be. Best to learn something "valid" by sampling mash pH much later, and save the adjustment for the next batch, where it can properly be done up front, and not via chasing a still moving target.
The irony in this is that if BW consistently tosses up lower than mainstream pH readings and false low pH readings are very likely the inherent outcome of sampling at 10 minutes, lo and behold, BW may come closer than the other software solutions. But closer to a likely false pH doesn't necessarily win the reality race, only the illogical "Hey, I always check at 10 minutes, and at 10 minutes BW is closer than all of the others (which all read higher), so that makes BW correct and all of the others junk" race.
For example, my last robust stout (more robust than yours) measured a stable 5.14 pH at 30 minutes, and a stable 5.22 mash pH at 60 minutes into the mash. Extending this backwards it very well may have come in at or below 5 pH at the 10 minute mark. But if I had reacted to a 5 pH at 10 minutes and tossed in a ton of baking soda, by 60 minutes it would potentially be above 5.6 pH and out of the mash pH ballpark on the high side.
The irony in this is that if BW consistently tosses up lower than mainstream pH readings and false low pH readings are very likely the inherent outcome of sampling at 10 minutes, lo and behold, BW may come closer than the other software solutions. But closer to a likely false pH doesn't necessarily win the reality race, only the illogical "Hey, I always check at 10 minutes, and at 10 minutes BW is closer than all of the others (which all read higher), so that makes BW correct and all of the others junk" race.
For example, my last robust stout (more robust than yours) measured a stable 5.14 pH at 30 minutes, and a stable 5.22 mash pH at 60 minutes into the mash. Extending this backwards it very well may have come in at or below 5 pH at the 10 minute mark. But if I had reacted to a 5 pH at 10 minutes and tossed in a ton of baking soda, by 60 minutes it would potentially be above 5.6 pH and out of the mash pH ballpark on the high side.
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cheesebach
Well-Known Member
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I'll admit that I'm in the camp who takes the pH reading at 10-15 minutes into the mash. Why do I do this? Because someone on the interwebs once told me that the first 15 minutes of the mash is where most of the conversion happens. So I figure that's the most critical time for the pH to be in the target range. Plus, I can feel like I may have "saved it" if it is more than +/- 0.10 off from my target pH and I quickly add some additional acid or pickling lime to bring it back to target. (Yes, it can and does happen in my experience that mash pH is off by 0.10 or more from what Bru'n Water or other tools predict, despite what the forums sometimes say).
So my question then, is whether there is some reason that the pH reading at the end of the mash is more or less important than the pH at 10-15 minutes in? To put it another way, if my target pH is 5.40 the first time I'm trying a recipe and I get 5.45 at 10 minutes in and 5.50 at the end of the mash, which number should I be using to adjust my water to be closer to 5.40 the next time I brew that recipe?
I and others have come to the conclusion that 30 minutes is the 'sweet spot' for mash pH readings for all combination of mashed grains. This topic was covered here in great depth and detail last month as being generally the best time. In the hope of standardizing the way, we record and report mash pH measurements.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
@cheesebach, I was adding the last 2 paragraphs to my post above while you were typing your post above screwy's. Go back and read the added last paragraph in particular please.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Another way to look at this is that until the mash pH is stable, which can only logically happen after mashing is assured to be complete, what is present as pH within the liquid wort phase is not necessarily reflective of what is going on at the pH level inside the cracked kernels, which is the region in which the still active enzymatic starch to sugar saccharification is actually taking place.
Thus my vote is for the 60 minute sample to be the most likely to be a reliable reflection of the mash pH environment.
Thus my vote is for the 60 minute sample to be the most likely to be a reliable reflection of the mash pH environment.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
The real question to be answered here is of course: Will this recipe mash at pH of 4.91 to begin with, and as such, should a ton of baking soda be pre-mixed into the mash water in advance (where it can be most efficacious to the peak of enzyme activity)?
4.91 pH must call for some serious baking soda grams, and I have my doubts about it. A little yes, but a lot, no.
4.91 pH must call for some serious baking soda grams, and I have my doubts about it. A little yes, but a lot, no.
And if a serious amount of baking soda make the beer taste too salty?
That particular recipe does include a substantial percentage of crystal and roast and I wouldn't be too surprised if the pH could fall that low without sufficient alkalinity in the mashing water. The good thing is that alkalinity is only needed in your mashing water and the amount of alkalyzing mineral that you're adding is diluted by the sparging water addition. In the case of baking soda, the resulting sodium content is far lower than what is needed to make your beer taste 'salty'.
This reminds me of a scare tactic that some use to get brewers to avoid adding baking soda. If you add a teaspoon of baking soda to a glass of water and taste it...it will taste salty and terrible. That's what happens when you produce a solution with 100's of ppm of sodium. However if you were to dose a glass of water with the proper amount of baking soda to produce the needed mashing alkalinity, you probably wouldn't taste much of anything. Concentration does make a difference.
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