$8 for Wyeast Activator pack !!!!!

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Kaiser

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For my next batch I tried to grow yeast from slants that I started to keep for the various yeasts I use. But somewhere along the way I must have cought an infection because the starter tasted sour and its pH was below 4.0 when I checked it. Because I anticipated problems like this I already started the yeast propagation process last week so I have time to get fresh yeast in case I mess up.

Well I had to and was shocked by the recent prices for yeast. My LHBS wanted $8 for one of the large Wyeast packs. They also had the propagator packs, but not for the yeast that I was looking for. Has yeast really gotten that expensive. Looks like the yeast culturing is actually saving money and not only for the geek factor.

Kai
 
Speaking of the propagator...
I have spent about $6 or $7 per liquid yeast packet, but have used a couple multiple times and up to 4 times on one. That one ended up very yeasty on the last batch.

So I ordered 1272 from Williams and it came in this wyeast packet that was half the size I'm used to. I was planning a starter, so didn't worry, but what is up? Is this what propagator means? There wasn't really any explanation on the package, just the pictures explaining how to do the smack.

The stuff is fermenting fine, just curious...

Bummer on the infection you ended up with.
 
knipknup said:
I was planning a starter, so didn't worry, but what is up? Is this what propagator means?

Yes, the activator is designed to be pitchable (for ales at least) and the propagator requires additional propagation.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
Yes, the activator is designed to be pitchable (for ales at least) and the propagator requires additional propagation.

Kai
Even the XL is a bit short, at least for medium strength ales and up when going by the textbook. Having said that, I did pitch an XL directly into a very average stout and didn't see or detect any problems.
 
IIRC the Propagator pack is roughly 25 billion cells. This is opposed to the 125B in the pitchable pack. My LHBS charges $8.75 for a propagator. Which is one of the reasons I buy from AHBS and reuse yeast.
 
Kaiser said:
Well I had to and was shocked by the recent prices for yeast. My LHBS wanted $8 for one of the large Wyeast packs. They also had the propagator packs, but not for the yeast that I was looking for. Has yeast really gotten that expensive. Looks like the yeast culturing is actually saving money and not only for the geek factor.

Kai


I hear ya. That is the main reason I use dry yeast. I can't bring myself to spend that kind of money on the strains. I do use them from time to time, and have saved some WLP550 and some WLP380. Culturing is the next step to get rolling, It is just hard to find the time. I am making some wonderful wild inoculants in the meantime for experimentation.
 
And there is the reason I have been making glycerol freezedowns of every strain I have bought and ones that a buddy has isolated from bottles. I've got about 8 strains now which cover most of the beers I plan on making.
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
And there is the reason I have been making glycerol freezedowns of every strain I have bought and ones that a buddy has isolated from bottles. I've got about 8 strains now which cover most of the beers I plan on making.
Sounds complicated and cool. What's the process, or is there a link to a primer?
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
Sounds complicated and cool. What's the process, or is there a link to a primer?

I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.
 
No, I definitely don't have access to that kind of environment. My sole fringe benefit of work is always having a cool cellphone with the bill paid...it's only useful for brewing in terms of a timer and a camera :eek:
 
Yeast Infection said:
I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.
I'm not the Baron, but I AM a research scientist, with access to all the "toys" implied by such. I've thought about culturing yeast, but I'm not sure that media and storage designed for lab-adapted strains would carry over to brewer's yeasts. Plus, I am not a yeast researcher, so I'd be interested in hearing/reading your procedure if you'd like to share.
 
Yeast Infection said:
I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.

The pan-ultimate beer geekiness - awesome!
 
Yeast Infection said:
I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.

Every waking minute? Yeesh.

Are you guys grad students??

Here are a couple decent articles for working on yeast at home:

http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/Homebrew/Freezing Yeast.htm
 
Finally back to the internet. I am a grad student, but I wouldn't say I spend every waking minute in a lab, just a lot of them. I'll include some instructions for those with a lab, and those without. If you work in a lab, make friends with someone in a yeast lab, it will make life easier. Ok, gonna get my dork on...

Culturing Yeast: I typically walk over to a yeast lab and ask to borrow some YPD (yeast extract, peptone, D-glucose) agar plates. Use a sterile loop (flamed) or pipette to get some of the last bit of a beer that has been poured into a glass and has sediment at the bottom, streak on the plate, grow for a few days at room temp. or at 30*C and you should have colonies. I have no idea how one could do this at home, there has been talk of slants, but that is old school and I have never used them. I do it to remove any possible contaminants (bacteria, etc) so I start from a single yeast colony for my cultures. One could probably just get some yeast from a bottle and put it in a small liquid starter culture of YPD media or DME+Water but your chances of contamination would be minutely higher.

Growing Yeast: I pick one of these colonies with a sterile toothpick or flamed loop and innoculate a small (5mL) volume of YPD (one could also use DME+Water), and grow until dense (overnight usually, gets cloudy, I have no idea what would happen in DME+Water). I then passage the 5mL into 50mL, repeat, then to 1 L. When it is dense, I put it in a centrifuge and spin it down to a pellet, pour off most of the supernatant and resuspend the yeast pellets in a small (50mL) volume of the spent media. This gets dumped into my wort.

Note, for those with lab access, I am not sure if one could even get these things if you weren't (remember to sterilize in an autoclave or by boiling), here is the recipe for YPD Media (yeast media), this is from memory, so I may edit it tomorrow.
10g Yeast Extract
20g yeast peptone
20g Glucose
in 1L water.

The second link up there has good information on media recipes, remember 1% means 1 gram / 100mL, or 10g / 1 L. It also says that laboratory media is bad for propagating yeast for brewing, I haven't done propagating much (read: once for a batch of beer) but a another scientist I know does it for all his beers and it seems to work fine for him.

For freezedowns, that first link up there is spot on, you want 15% glycerol (glycerine...not sure if they are the same) final volume in the frozen culture, this prevents the water crystals from forming and breaking the yeast cell walls. A non-frost free freezer is key if you are planning on keeping them long. One could also just freeze them in small blocks of ice, that should do the trick. I spin a 5mL culture, and resuspend it in a solution of sterile 15% glycerol in water. At home, one could just add glycerol to ~15% to a yeast culture or a settled yeast culture in DME+Water.

Anyone know a microbrewery in CO that needs a biologist/bad brewer/beer drinker? I should be graduating in about 5 months and need a job!

Nerd Off, good night!
 
Hey COXJ13 -- thanks for all the info. That was really helpful.

And yes, glycerol and glycerine are generally the same thing, although I gather there are non-consumable forms of glycerol that one should be aware of.

So I guessed right that you are a grad student, eh? Where at? I did my postdoc at CSU in Fort Collins a number of years ago (wildlife biology, not microbiology). I really miss Colorado, especially all the great microbrews in the Front Range!
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
Sounds complicated and cool. What's the process, or is there a link to a primer?

Check the Wiki BVBG it's in there. BTW if ya dont have acess to a non frost free freezer you can put your yeast into a hollowed out block of styrofoam with a coulple ice packs to help ya avoid the freeze that cycles that will kill your yeasties (I will be using some left over polystyrene from my fermentation chamber instead of styrofoam soon as I get some more empty vials)
 
Thanks for the info ColoradoXJ13,

I started using slants and will hopefully get me some peti dished for plates soon. As media I recommend 2-3% agar in a ~10*P wort. This should work best for brewers yeast since wort is what we want them to live in. Maybe adding some yeast nutrient will work.

As you said, plates make it easier to work from single growth colonies than slants. I always inspect my slants for signs of unusual growth before I use them. This being said, my first attempt of growing from a slant failed. I must have contracted some lacto bazillus during the early steps b/c the starter started to taste sour and had a pH lower then 4.0. Mayby I have to use sterile rather than simply boiled wort for the first step when I wake up the yeast colony in the slant tube.

Once I have success with this method I'll be writing something on the wiki. Not being a microbiologist myself, any input and help would be greatly appreciated.

And yes, I wish I had a lab at my diposal ;)

Kai
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
One could also just freeze them in small blocks of ice, that should do the trick.
Now there's a good idea. I had thought about getting a small -20d lab freezer for this purpose, but I'd rather spend the cash elsewhere.

Now I'm thinking about freezing some slants in those forms you can get to make popsicles. The ice "jacket" would insulate the slants from the freeze/thaw cycle. Then, when thawing for use, it would allow a slow warm up which I understand is also better for yeast survival.

If only I had been doing this when SWMBO was working in a lab with all the goodies.:(
 
Thanks for the process information CoXJ13; I have just a few questions that I'll pose below.

ColoradoXJ13 said:
Finally back to the internet. I am a grad student, but I wouldn't say I spend every waking minute in a lab, just a lot of them.
I know the feeling; I'm about 6 months away from my degree too (hopefully :D ).

I do it to remove any possible contaminants (bacteria, etc) so I start from a single yeast colony for my cultures.
Sounds pretty standard; my question (and not directedly specifically at you) is, are brewers yeast "strains" as sold by WL/WYeast, etc, really pure strains in the scientific sense of the term? I seem to remember reading at WL's site that at least one of the yeast lines they sell is a "blend". I'd just be afraid that purifying and picking colonies from a batch of yeast that started as a blend is not going to givev you the same yeast back that was purchased in the vial. If most/all brewer's yeast strains are pure, this becomes a non-issue though.

I then passage the 5mL into 50mL, repeat, then to 1 L. When it is dense, I put it in a centrifuge and spin it down to a pellet, pour off most of the supernatant and resuspend the yeast pellets in a small (50mL) volume of the spent media. This gets dumped into my wort.
No off-flavors in the beer from the spent laboratory media? That's good to know, that wass my biggest concern about growing the yeast up in lab and then bringing it home to pitch.

beer4breakfast said:
Thanks for the process information, ColoradoXJ13. I suspect the only thing a home yeast grower would not normally have access to is a centrifuge. Everything else you mentioned is readily available.
One other thing: sterilization.
Kaiser said:
This being said, my first attempt of growing from a slant failed. I must have contracted some lacto bazillus during the early steps b/c the starter started to taste sour and had a pH lower then 4.0. Mayby I have to use sterile rather than simply boiled wort for the first step when I wake up the yeast colony in the slant tube.
If you're going to be storing yeast cultures over the long term or propagating, I think you really need to make sure your media/equipment is sterile; not just sanitized. If you don't have access to an autoclave, that's going to be a challenge, but you might be able to make due with a pressure cooker; regular boiling isn't really enough though.
 
Yeast Infection said:
...we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment...If you have access to a lab...let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.

I have a side-by-side freezer. Does that work? :D
 
New Brew said:
really pure strains in the scientific sense of the term? I seem to remember reading at WL's site that at least one of the yeast lines they sell is a "blend".

I believe they are. Except for the ones specifically listed as a blend. The reuse of blends is generally difficult since both strains will grow at different rates thus shifting their balance.

If you're going to be storing yeast cultures over the long term or propagating, I think you really need to make sure your media/equipment is sterile; not just sanitized. If you don't have access to an autoclave, that's going to be a challenge, but you might be able to make due with a pressure cooker; regular boiling isn't really enough though.

Make sure you get a pressure cooker/canner. They run at or above 15 psi and will sterilize food and equipment.

Kai
 
FlyGuy said:
So I guessed right that you are a grad student, eh? Where at? I did my postdoc at CSU in Fort Collins a number of years ago (wildlife biology, not microbiology). I really miss Colorado, especially all the great microbrews in the Front Range!

Yep, CU, Boulder. MCD Biology. Love the microbrews too, too often...

trinitone said:
Now I'm thinking about freezing some slants in those forms you can get to make popsicles. The ice "jacket" would insulate the slants from the freeze/thaw cycle. Then, when thawing for use, it would allow a slow warm up which I understand is also better for yeast survival.

You don't want to freeze slants, you need to have glycerol/glycerine in a liquid yeast stock to freeze it. You will kill the yeast by freezing them without.

New Brew said:
If most/all brewer's yeast strains are pure, this becomes a non-issue though.
You said it.

New Brew said:
No off-flavors in the beer from the spent laboratory media? That's good to know, that wass my biggest concern about growing the yeast up in lab and then bringing it home to pitch.
50mL of media in 5 gallons is nothing, don't worry about it.
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
You don't want to freeze slants, you need to have glycerol/glycerine in a liquid yeast stock to freeze it. You will kill the yeast by freezing them without.
Yeah... bad choice of word "slant". I just meant whatever tube I put the glycerine/yeast suspension in.

New Brew said:
Sounds pretty standard; my question (and not directedly specifically at you) is, are brewers yeast "strains" as sold by WL/WYeast, etc, really pure strains in the scientific sense of the term? I seem to remember reading at WL's site that at least one of the yeast lines they sell is a "blend". I'd just be afraid that purifying and picking colonies from a batch of yeast that started as a blend is not going to givev you the same yeast back that was purchased in the vial. If most/all brewer's yeast strains are pure, this becomes a non-issue though.
Wyeast, when talking about their Roeselare Blend states that they don't even recommend starters because of the organisms' different growth rates. I inquired about purchasing their pitchable 1L size but haven't gotten a response from them.
 
This stuff sounds really interesting, but I think I'm going to have to keep paying $7/vial for the time being. :eek:
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
10g Yeast Extract
20g yeast peptone
20g Glucose
in 1L water.

Since this yeast media is glucose based, is there a concern that the yeast may get lazy and loose the ability to ferment maltose?

Kai
 
I've always made a massive starter and split it 4 ways. 3 get bottled and stored in the fridge for later and the 4 get some time on the stir plate.

I have 22 oz. Corona bottles in the fridge with my Kolsch and Weihenstephan yeasts so far. Works for me.

I look at the work involved compared to the 7 bucks saved, but I also compare the time needed to order or drive to AHS to pick it up. It works out for me.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
Sounds complicated and cool. What's the process, or is there a link to a primer?
You would be suprized how easy it is!!! The best primer out there is First Steps in Yeast Culture by Pierre Rajotte it walks you though all the steps. It's very easy you'll think the yeast companys have been (ripping you off) unfairly taking your money!!!
 
Yeast Infection said:
I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.
I've done this for years in my kitchen!!!!! read First Steps In Yeast Culture by Pierre Rajotte it's exceptionally easy !!!!!!The process when first done is a little akward but when you do it once it becomes easy. EVEN YOU CAN DO IT.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
No, I definitely don't have access to that kind of environment. My sole fringe benefit of work is always having a cool cellphone with the bill paid...it's only useful for brewing in terms of a timer and a camera :eek:
I garantee you, you don't need a lab. Just a reasonably clean area.
 
beer4breakfast said:
Thanks for the process information, ColoradoXJ13. I suspect the only thing a home yeast grower would not normally have access to is a centrifuge. Everything else you mentioned is readily available.
The process is easy once done, This is not brain surgery!! Read First Steps In Yeast Culture by Pierre Rajotte its very, very easy!!!!!
 
Beer Weevel said:
You would be suprized how easy it is!!! The best primer out there is First Steps in Yeast Culture by Pierre Rajotte it walks you though all the steps. It's very easy you'll think the yeast companys have been ripping you off!!!


Watch out ! A self styled speech policeman will take offense at your use of the R word for an over priced retail transaction.

He jumped all over me for it. In you defense encarta defines Rip Off as:

1. An unfairly priced item 2. dishonest treatment 3. a cheap copy

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861702922


I agree it is easy and at $8 a pop someone somewhere is being gouged.

It happens everyday at the gas pump though.
 
abracadabra said:
Watch out ! A self styled speech policeman will take offense at your use of the R word for an over priced retail transaction.

He jumped all over me for it. In you defense encarta defines Rip Off as:

1. An unfairly priced item 2. dishonest treatment 3. a cheap copy

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861702922


I agree it is easy and at $8 a pop someone somewhere is being gouged.

It happens everyday at the gas pump though.
I stand corrected it should read (unfairly ripping you off!!!!!)
 
Here's a pic of my yeast stock.

4569-Yeast.jpg


It's time to step up the Weihenstephan, brew a batch and save 3 more bottles. The bottle on the left is first generation. It makes a fine brew!

Brewhead gave me this idea and it works great if you are crazy about sanitation!
 
I wouldn't say that Wyeast or WL charging $8 for a vial of yeast is unfair, I have no doubt that between materials and time, I am spending way more then the equivalent of $8 to grow up my yeast, its just that I don't have to spend the money ever.

Kaiser said:
Since this yeast media is glucose based, is there a concern that the yeast may get lazy and loose the ability to ferment maltose?

Kai

no, thats not the way evolution and the yeast life cycle works. The yeast still have the genes to make the enzymes that break down maltose, they just have to be turned back on when the yeast encounters another carbon source.
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
I wouldn't say that Wyeast or WL charging $8 for a vial of yeast is unfair, I have no doubt that between materials and time, I am spending way more then the equivalent of $8 to grow up my yeast, its just that I don't have to spend the money ever.

I agree that we have a semi free market where most retailers and manufactors are free to charge whatever the market will bear. And I was happy to pay $6 for my first packet of yeast. But now I could give the stuff away for free and never be in danger of running out.

But the cost to me is a few pennies and a little bit of time.
 
Yeast Infection said:
I am ColoradoXJ13's brew buddy, we are both research scientist, so we have access to the equipment. You wouldn't be able to do it properly if you did not have access to a lab, as we do since we spend about every waking minute in one. If you do have access to a lab though, let us know, and we will give you the low down on the freeze down.


I am definately wrong about this...sorry....i should have done my homework befor I opened my mouth.
 
ColoradoXJ13 said:
no, thats not the way evolution and the yeast life cycle works. The yeast still have the genes to make the enzymes that break down maltose, they just have to be turned back on when the yeast encounters another carbon source.

Don't get me wrong when I keep discussing this subject, but it's not all the time that we have a microbiologist here to ask :)

Plamer and others note that the glucose content in wort shoul be lower than 50% otherwise you might get a stuck fermentation because the yeast gets to "used" to gulcose that it doesn't bother anymore to ferment maltose and higher sugars. What is happening here. Does the yeast really stop using maltose when there is to much glucose available?

Kai
 
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