6th batch completed! now questions

[p_p]

Hi all, I've completed my 6th batch now and would like to ask a few questions to the community.
Apologies for the long email, there is one question/topic per paragraph. I've added titles so you can pick and choose


Oxygenation method:
I improved the method for wort aeration, from splashing to aquarium air pump, in-line 0.2um filter and 2um stone.
To help reduce brew-day time, I started aerating whilst chilling the wort. In this brew, my pitching target temp was 63.5F (17.5C) and I started aerating when I was at about 77F (25C). I appreciate that the cooler the wort, the easier it is for oxygen to get into solution however ...
Questions are: Is this an acceptable practice? What is the temperature threshold above which I would be oxidizing the wort instead of oxygenating it?

Oxygen during dry hopping:
The beer will be dry hopped (first time doing so), hops will be bagged and sunk in primary (bucket) once the beer reaches (or is very close to) final gravity. Question is: Given my set-up (on primary, bucket, with yeast cake at the bottom), what can I do to minimize the amount of oxygen I will introduce in the process?

Hops quality and freshness:
In this beer I used three hops I've never used before. I do not know if my HBS freezes the hops, but they are packed very tight in thick oxygen barrier bag. The all-American hops used were Crystal (2014), Centennial (2014) and Simcoe (2013). I did a rub/smell test on all of them and noticed that the Simcoe and Centennial smelled great, the latter felt very resiny. The Crystal however smelled a bit subdue and dull compared to the other. Questions are: Is this characteristic of the Crystal variety or I got bad hops? Should I consider updating my dry hop schedule and reduce the amount of Crystal I planned (1/2oz Simcoe, 1/2oz Centennial, 1oz Crystal)?

Brew-house efficiency:
In my system I am doing a single step infusion mash followed by two loads of batch sparge (at pH 5.5). From day one my overall efficiency, calculated as potential extract vs obtained extract in FV prior pitching has been ~80% and during last brew it was ~85%. Grains are delivered to me pre-crushed. I drain the grains well (no squeezing) and have managed to reduced dead spaces to a bare minimum. I do not leave much behind in the kettle either. I use a digital scale and potential extract obtained from tables online. I do measure gravity using a BRIX refractometer which I calibrate with water on brew day and have only checked against a hydrometer once some time ago. Is 80-85% efficiency unrealistically high given my process?

Hops utilization:
I do have a problem here so I am looking for some ideas. So far I've done FWH only followed by 5 and 0 additions (sometimes only 0 min). Whole dry hops are bagged (not tight!). My boil s rather feeble, but rolls. I calculate IBUs using Tinseth formula although admittedly, estimating IBUs from late additions+steeping is a finger-in-the-air thing. The resulting beer does is perceived as less better when comparing to commercial examples where IBUs are declared in the label. I do not mind keep tweaking my numbers to match my system, but I do think that I am also experiencing some inconsistency, unfortunately. Could you offer some advice on how to improve please?


Thanks in advance!
pp

 

[bmbigda]

Brew-house efficiency:

In my system I am doing a single step infusion mash followed by two loads of batch sparge (at pH 5.5). From day one my overall efficiency, calculated as potential extract vs obtained extract in FV prior pitching has been ~80% and during last brew it was ~85%. Grains are delivered to me pre-crushed. I drain the grains well (no squeezing) and have managed to reduced dead spaces to a bare minimum. I do not leave much behind in the kettle either. I use a digital scale and potential extract obtained from tables online. I do measure gravity using a BRIX refractometer which I calibrate with water on brew day and have only checked against a hydrometer once some time ago. Is 80-85% efficiency unrealistically high given my process?





pp

All that matters is that your able to predict your efficiency. If that's what you're getting consistently after 6 brews then go with it. I will say as a fellow 2x batch sparger I never even get into the 80s for brew house efficiency. but if corse there are many differentiating factors at play here.

According to brewersfriend.com calculator I got 63% when I brewed yesterday. I typically aim for about 65.

 

[p_p]

All that matters is that your able to predict your efficiency. If that's what you're getting consistently after 6 brews then go with it. I will say as a fellow 2x batch sparger I never even get into the 80s for brew house efficiency. but if corse there are many differentiating factors at play here.

According to brewersfriend.com calculator I got 63% when I brewed yesterday. I typically aim for about 65.

mmm, are you leaving behind a lot of wort in the tun and in the kettle? I moved my efficiency from low 70s to 80s by making sure i don not have dead spaces in the tun and getting a bit extra from the kettle (I inevitably get some turb accross to FV but it does not seem to affect flavour or even clarity).

I punched the numbers in brewers friend and showed me 85 which is the exact same number my spreadsheet gave me, I just thought it was a bit too high. I will double check I weight the grains correctly and use both hydrometer & refractometer next time ... the two possible culprits in my opinion.

 

[bmbigda]

yea there's a few factors that get me to 65. I leave some in the kettle especially with hoppy beers. not that it would negatively affect the beer I just use buckets with spigots and toomuch trub and yeast cake will block that.

I also could increase it by being more patient with my first runnings. if I really let it trickle out for another 10 min I'd collect another half gallon of first runnings. instead i wait until the end of sparging to collect the trickle.

and lastly my LHBS grain mill is probably not set to an ideal gap for efficiency. or it's worn out, or both.

but all of this just equates to a few more dollars in grain and I still get the gravity and volume I desire into the FV

 

[ram5ey]

As far as hop utilization, just use the same formula and you will be able to gauge what works on your system. I always use rager so that I know what to expect initially. I also don't account for whirlpool hops in terms of bitterness as a matter of personal preference.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Hi all, I've completed my 6th batch now and would like to ask a few questions to the community.
Apologies for the long email, there is one question/topic per paragraph. I've added titles so you can pick and choose


Oxygenation method:
I improved the method for wort aeration, from splashing to aquarium air pump, in-line 0.2um filter and 2um stone.
To help reduce brew-day time, I started aerating whilst chilling the wort. In this brew, my pitching target temp was 63.5F (17.5C) and I started aerating when I was at about 77F (25C). I appreciate that the cooler the wort, the easier it is for oxygen to get into solution however ...
Questions are: Is this an acceptable practice? What is the temperature threshold above which I would be oxidizing the wort instead of oxygenating it?

At that temp, hot side aeration will not be a problem, so in that sense it should be fine. Be advised that using atmospheric air there's a limit to how much O2 can be dissolved, and that using an air pump will actually dissolve about the same amount as shaking will (given enough shaking), and will actually take longer. It's also a lot safer and easier than shaking though.

It'll work fine for average gravity beers, but for high gravity beers you may want to invest in a pure O2 set up. You can usually use the same tubing/filter/stone you already have, the regulator may set you back a little but (but usually not much more than the pump you already got), and you can get disposable oxygen tanks from the hardware store (designed for handheld cutting torches) for only a few bucks each, and at proper flow rate (ie not needlessly wasting it) you can get 10-15 batches per tank.

Oxygen during dry hopping:
The beer will be dry hopped (first time doing so), hops will be bagged and sunk in primary (bucket) once the beer reaches (or is very close to) final gravity. Question is: Given my set-up (on primary, bucket, with yeast cake at the bottom), what can I do to minimize the amount of oxygen I will introduce in the process?

If you keg, you can purge your fermenter with CO2 prior to sealing it back up. That'll be your best option. If not, just open it as few times as possible.

Hops quality and freshness:
In this beer I used three hops I've never used before. I do not know if my HBS freezes the hops, but they are packed very tight in thick oxygen barrier bag. The all-American hops used were Crystal (2014), Centennial (2014) and Simcoe (2013). I did a rub/smell test on all of them and noticed that the Simcoe and Centennial smelled great, the latter felt very resiny. The Crystal however smelled a bit subdue and dull compared to the other. Questions are: Is this characteristic of the Crystal variety or I got bad hops? Should I consider updating my dry hop schedule and reduce the amount of Crystal I planned (1/2oz Simcoe, 1/2oz Centennial, 1oz Crystal)?

Crystal is a noble-type hop and is FAR more subtle than Centennial and Simcoe. Couldn't tell you for sure without looking/smelling at your hops, but it doesn't sound like there should be an issue if they're properly stored.

Brew-house efficiency:
In my system I am doing a single step infusion mash followed by two loads of batch sparge (at pH 5.5). From day one my overall efficiency, calculated as potential extract vs obtained extract in FV prior pitching has been ~80% and during last brew it was ~85%. Grains are delivered to me pre-crushed. I drain the grains well (no squeezing) and have managed to reduced dead spaces to a bare minimum. I do not leave much behind in the kettle either. I use a digital scale and potential extract obtained from tables online. I do measure gravity using a BRIX refractometer which I calibrate with water on brew day and have only checked against a hydrometer once some time ago. Is 80-85% efficiency unrealistically high given my process?

Not at all. Sounds like you're getting your system dialed in well, that's all. If you hit that range consistently and aren't oversparging, you're doing very well. With a combo of proper conversion and proper sparging getting good efficiency is easy. I double batch sparge and get 85-88% efficiency. If I fly sparge I get 87-90% efficiency. I could go higher were I to tighten my mill gap anyway, but I'm usually getting onto the border of oversparging territory with my 2nd batch sparge/end of fly sparge as it is.

Hops utilization:
I do have a problem here so I am looking for some ideas. So far I've done FWH only followed by 5 and 0 additions (sometimes only 0 min). Whole dry hops are bagged (not tight!). My boil s rather feeble, but rolls. I calculate IBUs using Tinseth formula although admittedly, estimating IBUs from late additions+steeping is a finger-in-the-air thing. The resulting beer does is perceived as less better when comparing to commercial examples where IBUs are declared in the label. I do not mind keep tweaking my numbers to match my system, but I do think that I am also experiencing some inconsistency, unfortunately. Could you offer some advice on how to improve please?

The formulas out there are all approximations, and no one has nailed it down. Your best bet is to stick with one formula and one calculator so that there's consistency in the approximation, and then just adjust based on experience. If beers don't seem bitter enough you, simply increase the bitterness on future batches.

However, IBUs are not the only factor influencing bitterness. The balance of the beer overall beer is more important. If you're using a higher percentage of crystal malts, or getting lower attenuation, or starting at a higher gravity, or a number of other factors outside of the hops/IBUs themselves, the beer may be perceived as less bitter.

Hope that helps.

 

[p_p]

yea there's a few factors that get me to 65. I leave some in the kettle especially with hoppy beers. not that it would negatively affect the beer I just use buckets with spigots and too
much trub and yeast cake will block that.

I also could increase it by being more patient with my first runnings. if I really that it tricky out for another 10 min I'd collect another half gallon if first runnings. instead i wait until the end of sparging to collect the trickle.

and lastly my LHBS grain mill is probably not set to an ideal gap for efficiency. or it's worn out, or both.

but all of this just equates to a few more dollars in grain and I still get the gravity and volume I desire into the FV

Talking this through I think I know where the increased efficiency over my average 80% comes from. For the first time I used 5% sugar in my recipe!

 

[p_p]

At that temp, hot side aeration will not be a problem, so in that sense it should be fine. Be advised that using atmospheric air there's a limit to how much O2 can be dissolved, and that using an air pump will actually dissolve about the same amount as shaking will (given enough shaking), and will actually take longer. It's also a lot safer and easier than shaking though.

It'll work fine for average gravity beers, but for high gravity beers you may want to invest in a pure O2 set up. You can usually use the same tubing/filter/stone you already have, the regulator may set you back a little but (but usually not much more than the pump you already got), and you can get disposable oxygen tanks from the hardware store (designed for handheld cutting torches) for only a few bucks each, and at proper flow rate (ie not needlessly wasting it) you can get 10-15 batches per tank.

Thanks for all your answers, very useful.
May I follow up on some of your comments?

Roughly at which temperature is the point dividing hot and cold side?
With my air-pump setup, what would you say is the maximum beer gravity I can still aerate sufficiently to get healthy fermentation? Can I somehow compensate by over-pitching slightly?

Finally, out of curiosity how much you guys pay for oxygen tanks and how many liters you get? I've checked the stores and here (UK) you get a 1ltr tank for 35 USD + shipping. The regulator will set me back ~45 USD. I fear 20 seconds at 1ltr/min would only give me 3 batches and add $12 per batch ..

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks for all your answers, very useful.
May I follow up on some of your comments?

Roughly at which temperature is the point dividing hot and cold side?
With my air-pump setup, what would you say is the maximum beer gravity I can still aerate sufficiently to get healthy fermentation? Can I somehow compensate by over-pitching slightly?

Finally, out of curiosity how much you guys pay for oxygen tanks and how many liters you get? I've checked the stores and here (UK) you get a 1ltr tank for 35 USD + shipping. The regulator will set me back ~45 USD. I fear 20 seconds at 1ltr/min would only give me 3 batches and add $12 per batch ..

I've taken both my experience and Charlie Bamforth's word that hot side aeration is more of a boogeyman than anything else (other factors will oxidize much more rapidly, factors that can't really be eliminated on the homebrew scale without very fancy equipment), so I don't pay much attention to it. I would assume the risk line is somewhere in the 120F range, but that's a blatant stab in the dark. I'd have to peruse through my bookshelf for a better answer, but like I said I wouldn't be too worried about it.

As far as the gravity, again I'd have to pull down a book for more precise figures, but I'd say once you get above 1.060-1.070, you'll be better served by pure O2, and definitely when you get 1.080 or above (and higher than that it's actually helpful to give another blast of oxygen 12 hours or so after pitching). That's not to say that you'll necessarily have problems without it, but your odds of proper attenuation will be better, it'll get there faster, and more cleanly with less intermediaries formed/to clean up/remaining in the beer, and less potential for off-flavors. And yes, increasing the pitching rate slightly would help counter that.

That's about right for the regulator. Oxygen tanks I get are 40 grams of oxygen, appears to be about a liter or so by volume but it's listed by weight. $20 USD for the tank listed online at Home Depot (but I remember them being half that in store, of course my memory could be incorrect). I don't measure actual flow rate, but I submerse the stone, crank on the oxygen up until it starts to bubble, then dial it back until there's only minor surface disruption/light bubbling. If it's bubbling violently all those bubbles are just oxygen blowing off ie wasted oxygen. I then do 60 seconds for the average ale, or 90 seconds for high gravity ales, lagers, or hybrids. At that rate, I get about 10-15 batches per tank. I buy them in pairs so that when one kicks, I have another ready to go.

 

[p_p]

I've taken both my experience and Charlie Bamforth's word that hot side aeration is more of a boogeyman than anything else (other factors will oxidize much more rapidly, factors that can't really be eliminated on the homebrew scale without very fancy equipment), so I don't pay much attention to it. I would assume the risk line is somewhere in the 120F range, but that's a blatant stab in the dark. I'd have to peruse through my bookshelf for a better answer, but like I said I wouldn't be too worried about it.

As far as the gravity, again I'd have to pull down a book for more precise figures, but I'd say once you get above 1.060-1.070, you'll be better served by pure O2, and definitely when you get 1.080 or above (and higher than that it's actually helpful to give another blast of oxygen 12 hours or so after pitching). That's not to say that you'll necessarily have problems without it, but your odds of proper attenuation will be better, it'll get there faster, and more cleanly with less intermediaries formed/to clean up/remaining in the beer, and less potential for off-flavors. And yes, increasing the pitching rate slightly would help counter that.

That's about right for the regulator. Oxygen tanks I get are 40 grams of oxygen, appears to be about a liter or so by volume but it's listed by weight. $20 USD for the tank listed online at Home Depot (but I remember them being half that in store, of course my memory could be incorrect). I don't measure actual flow rate, but I submerse the stone, crank on the oxygen up until it starts to bubble, then dial it back until there's only minor surface disruption/light bubbling. If it's bubbling violently all those bubbles are just oxygen blowing off ie wasted oxygen. I then do 60 seconds for the average ale, or 90 seconds for high gravity ales, lagers, or hybrids. At that rate, I get about 10-15 batches per tank. I buy them in pairs so that when one kicks, I have another ready to go.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

In relation to dry hopping, which is something I have no experience with, I just finished reviewing some literature and listening to a pod-cast.

It was mentioned that wet-hops should not be used for dry hopping as they will be covered with wild yeast and other microbes.
I plan to dry hop using commercial dried whole hops. Are these microbe free? I know pellets see quite some heat in the manufacturing process but I don't know if that is also the case for dry whole hops (sold to me vacuum packed in oxygen barrier bags).

I also heard in the pod-cast that yeast interferes with the dry hopping process. The oils will coat the yeast cells and just drop along and be lost.
My dry hopping needs to be done in primary (yeast cake in the bucket) and I was planning to roughly follow the schedule shown below (now in the third day). Should I wait a bit longer before I drop the hops in order to avoid loosing too many oils to the yeast that is currently in suspension? Or should I carry as is? Or should I cold crash, then rise the temp and dry hop?

Thanks again.

(the horizontal axis is number of days from pitching)