60 Minute mashing unnecessary....

[SpanishCastleAle]

but just merely suggesting that I think it is possible to achieve the same results we always have without the need to mash for a full hour or longer.

Well, I think we've been shown that if you have a good crush and are mashing high then letting it sit for an hour or more is often just wasting time. The question seems to be how quickly can we mash when we are mashing at a lower temp or with a coarse crush. But mashing a little too long is better than mashing too short. FWIW, I never plan my sacc rest for longer than 45 minutes anymore but the time from dough-in to wort-in-kettle is much longer than that between heating it up to mash-out temp, vorlauf, sparge, etc.

 

[RighteousFire]

Ask Flying Dog how much time elapses between mash in and the first runnings hitting the kettle. I bet you it is over an hour.

We can't mimic Flying Dog's sacch rest time and get the same result if the rest of our process is different.

That's what I had said before:*

The way I see it is that once you hit conversion at say the 25 minutes, its still going to take you some time to do a vorlauf, drain the 1st runnings, sparge (batch or fly will take some time either way), so by the end of it all it has sat in the mash tun for longer and you have gotten all of the fermentable and dextrinous sugars possible.*

I'm not implying that we can mimic exactly what big breweries do, but just merely suggesting that I think it is possible to achieve the same results we always have without the need to mash for a full hour or longer.

Not trying to change minds, just questionig "authority".

 

[earlytimes]

This may be slightly off topic, but I'm planning on brewing an oatmeal stout from Brewing Classic Styles tomorrow. In the book, Jamil says you may need to lengthen the mash time to 90 minutes to fully convert the flaked oats. Hmmm... Might 90 minutes actaully be necessary in this situation where you have grains with little to no diastatic power?

I was also wondering if instead of the iodine test if you could take samples periodically and measure the gravity. Once the gravity levels out, it would seem to me that conversion is now complete. I think Kai may mentioned this in a previous post. I may try that this weekend.

 

[Denny]

Remember, we're not JUST looking for starch conversion. A longer mash will allow some of the longer-chained, unfermentable sugars to be broken down into more-fermentable sugars. That's why for a particularly dry beer, you'll occassionally see a 90-minute mash recommended even though the actual *conversion* is long done by then.

BINGO! I know for a fact that when I do a 90 min. mash I get a more fermentable wort than when I do a shorter mash. You mainly hear the virtues of a short mash extolled by commercial brewers. But even though they may do a short mash, by the time they finish sparging and lautering, the grain has been at mash temps for at least an hour or more. So, it's not truly a short mash.

 

[Denny]

T Not trying to change minds, just questionig "authority".

Nothing wrong with questioning authority, but let your own experience make your mind up. That's what I did, and I'll stick with 60+ min. mashes.

 

[RighteousFire]

I'm just down for trying new things, or making things that are usually accepted work even when people say it can't be done.

I love a good challenge.

 

[bob1852]

Remember, we're not JUST looking for starch conversion. A longer mash will allow some of the longer-chained, unfermentable sugars to be broken down into more-fermentable sugars. That's why for a particularly dry beer, you'll occassionally see a 90-minute mash recommended even though the actual *conversion* is long done by then.

and, those longer-chained sugars (oligosacchrides) are what causes farts from homebrew....

your stomach can't digest them, so the bacteria in your lower GI tract do the job.

my theory: shorter mash = more farts

(okay, not as scientific as Kai's work, but it's my theory)

 

[lamarguy]

my theory: shorter mash = more farts

Ha, you should perform an experiment to test your hypothesis. Seriously.

You'll need a few volunteers that are willing to maintain a consistent diet for a few days and track their flatulence "events" after drinking a control (60 minute mash beer) and a variable (30 minute mash beer).

 

[bob1852]

Ha, you should perform an experiment to test your hypothesis. Seriously.

You'll need a few volunteers that are willing to maintain a consistent diet for a few days and track their flatulence "events" after drinking a control (60 minute mash beer) and a variable (30 minute mash beer).

Well I'm already convinced that a short primary fermentation leads to the same thing.....gotta give those oligosacchrides time!

are you volunteering?

 

[lamarguy]

are you volunteering?

I would, but I'm a poor candidate since us folks in South Texas eat a lot of TexMex. Which, of course, is full of oligosaccharides. Yum!

 

[malkore]

My two cents: I've had full conversion at 45 minutes with Briess domestic 2-row, and good attenuation.

My efficiency is in the low 70's but I am pretty certain that's my crush. my beers don't turn out too malty or too dry.


I think one could define their 'house beers' by playing with the temp and times like Kaiser speaks of...kind of like how your water profile also characterizes the final product and makes it 'unique' to your brewery (assuming you're not using RO water and creating a specific profile per the recipe)

 

[RighteousFire]

Since my water smells like a swimming pool out of the tap and I don't have a filter I usually use RO or distiller water and add salts. I'm thinking of creating a water profile that I will use the same ppm for every brew. Unless I do a pilsner than I would make it very soft.

 

[Noleafclover]

I think this question really depends on the particular setup/practices that the particular homebrewer goes through.

It sounds like a shorter mash doesn't hurt. We KNOW a 60 minute mash doesn't for most beers. I usually use the 60 minute mash time to prepare sparge water, ensure everything I need to sanitize is in process, and acknowledge the wife's existence.
So the first two things could be done prior to the 30 minute mash time purposed... but I don't think I can fit all three in.

 

[RighteousFire]

Wait, you actually find time to hang out with the SWMBO while brewing?

Kidding, if I'm doing it while the baby is asleep she usually just hangs out and drinks with me. She wants to get started on it herself but really would like to learn it on her own.

 

[chefmike]

Fascinating thread.

Thanks for everyone sharing experience (and flatulence!)

I really appreciate the experience and insight that I have access to on this site in threads like this!

 

[rico567]

I think I can understand the main motive for wanting to do a shorter mash- less time spent brewing! However, I've yet to see in this thread any kind of data with different kinds of grain at various temperatures, etc., showing consistent, repeatable times for full conversion. Guess I'll order out some iodine and start doing test at various times during a mash, then keep the records in my "notes" section of the software. Maybe in a couple of years, I'll have something to report. Until then it's 60 minutes....unless it's 90.

 

[chefmike]

showing consistent, repeatable times for full conversion. Guess I'll order out some iodine and start doing test at various times during a mash, .

I am not sure if I was reading between the lines of what Denny, Kai and AZ wrote, but what I took away from the thread was that an iodine test can indicate conversion from starch to sigar, but does not take into account the nuances of fermentability of several types of sugars (olgiosaccarides were mentioned).

So, if I understood it correctly, there is no concrete data that can be collected from an iodine test. It would need to be paired with mash temperature, attenuation, and perception of the final product.

Perhaps taking gravity readins at various points during the mash would be more conclusive?

 

[Saccharomyces]

I think I see a mash time vs attenuation experiment coming...

 

[chefmike]

1

2

3

Not It....

 

[Kaiser]

Chefmike, to say it in other words, a negative iodine test is necessary for good beer but not sufficient.

Kai

 

[RBlagojevich]

good thread... thanks for all the info, kaiser!

 

[oldschool]

most of the stone vertical epic recipes they have online recomend a 60 minute mash.

 

[armstpe]

At my age (70) I really appreciate a 60 min mash (rest) time. In fact I have been considering going to a standard 90 min mash and maybe getting in a little nap.

Paul