6 oz of hops and no flavor...

[THESULLI]

Hi all!

So my latest batch has been sitting in the keg for 2 weeks now. I am not going to lie.... It is very disappointing. It almost reminds me of Pepsi? It is very sweet. My first thought was "well it only fermented down to 1.018 so that would make sense." But considering the fact that it started out at 1.080... Should be sitting at about 8%. The hops are also non existent... 6 oz and there isn't even a hint of them whatsoever. The only thing I can think of here would be that my hops were in the fridge for a maybe 6 months? So freshness is a factor but for 6 oz to not come through at all? What do you guys think?

Here is the recipe:
5 gallon batch
6 lbs - Golden Light DME
2 lbs - Pilsen Light DME
1 lb - Crystal 20L
1 lb - Carapils
2 oz - Nugget at 60 mins
2 oz - Falconers at 30 mins
2 oz - Amarillo at 5 mins
2 packets of US-05, 1 packet was new, the other expired 3 years ago

Since it hurts me to dump anything... This has already turned into a cooking beer. The girlfriend made an AWESOME marinade for some chicken and tuna steaks we grilled up the other day. They both came out amazing.

Anyway, please let me know what you think. Can the freshness of the hops leave them completely useless like this?

 

[rburrelli]

What yeast was used? I believe the sweetness is hiding the hop flavors.

 

[THESULLI]

What yeast was used? I believe the sweetness is hiding the hop flavors.

I updated the recipe to show the yeast. 2 packets of US-05. One packet was brand new and the other expired 3 years ago. It had a very active fermentation for about a week.

 

[rburrelli]

Hmm.. the hops used for aroma and flavor are all pretty fruity. Is it that type of sweetness? Considering the attenuation that you got, I would think it would be pretty dry as well.
Could be as you say. That finishing gravity is gonna be sweet no matter what.

 

[THESULLI]

Hmm.. the hops used for aroma and flavor are all pretty fruity. Is it that type of sweetness? Considering the attenuation that you got, I would think it would be pretty dry as well.
Could be as you say. That finishing gravity is gonna be sweet no matter what.

I wouldn't describe it as a fruity sweetness at all. I would say its more like an artificial sugary flavor. Like coke or pepsi. It does not taste like coke or pepsi but for some reason that is what comes to mind when I take a sip. Just very... artificial sugary?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

please let me know what you think.

How fast did the wort chill to ~170F?

Have you seen Tips & Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers At Home? (When brewing extract+steep above about OG 60, I tend to add sugar rather than DME. partial-mash would also be an option).

 

[madscientist451]

Is this beer kegged or bottled? There may be a chance of saving it if its kegged.....

 

[Rackrunner]

Two things that come to mind for me:
What was your mash temp? May have had a little extra sweetness coming through with a higher mash temp?
Two pounds of cara/crystal malt with such an otherwise light grain bill seems on the high side, and these can add a distinctly sweet flavor. Have you made this recipe before?

 

[THESULLI]

How fast did the wort chill to ~170F?

Have you seen Tips & Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers At Home? (When brewing extract+steep above about OG 60, I tend to add sugar rather than DME. partial-mash would also be an option).

I killed the boil and chilled it down to pitching temp in 4-5 mins with my mantis wort chiller

 

[THESULLI]

Is this beer kegged or bottled? There may be a chance of saving it if its kegged.....

It is kegged. What do you suggest for saving it?

 

[THESULLI]

Two things that come to mind for me:
What was your mash temp? May have had a little extra sweetness coming through with a higher mash temp?
Two pounds of cara/crystal malt with such an otherwise light grain bill seems on the high side, and these can add a distinctly sweet flavor. Have you made this recipe before?

No mash on this one. It was an extract kit from my LHBS that I substituted some DME instead of LME. I have never made this kit before. I also only used half of the DME early in a 3.5 gallon boil and added the rest a couple of mins before flame out. All in an attempt to achieve better hop utilization during the boil... Doesn't seem to have worked haha!

 

[Rackrunner]

No mash on this one

Ahh gotcha, I thought maybe it was a partial mash with just the crystal malts.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I killed the boil and chilled it down to pitching temp in 4-5 mins with my mantis wort chiller

What is the source of the recipe?

Have you seen Tips & Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers At Home? (When brewing extract+steep above about OG 60, I tend to add sugar rather than DME. partial-mash would also be an option).

 

[THESULLI]

Ahh gotcha, I thought maybe it was a partial mash with just the crystal malts.

I see what you were saying now. I just steeped the crystal and carapils for 30 mins. I have been doing this same thing with all of my beers so far and they turned out pretty good.

 

[THESULLI]

What is the source of the recipe?

Have you seen Tips & Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers At Home? (When brewing extract+steep above about OG 60, I tend to add sugar rather than DME. partial-mash would also be an option).

The recipe came from my LHBS. I tweaked it by using more DME since I wasnt able to get LME. I used an online calculator to determine how much to use. It came out to a little under 6 lbs so I just used the entire 6 lbs.

I have not seen that but I will read through it now. Thanks!

 

[stickyfinger]

is it an ipa? if so, i'd use way more hops. you didn't dry hop? that's most important if you want hop flavor.

 

[THESULLI]

is it an ipa? if so, i'd use way more hops. you didn't dry hop? that's most important if you want hop flavor.

Sorry I should clarify... By no flavor, I mean literally nothing. No bittering, no aroma, no flavor. It's as if I didn't use hops at all.

 

[IslandLizard]

How were those hops bought and packaged?
Wherefrom?
If sealed, were they opened before?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Boil up some hops and add the hop tea to the keg. Calculate how many IBUs you want to add and boil them for an hour. You can also make late additions to boost hop flavor and aroma along with adding bitterness. You're lucky you kegged it because it will be pretty easy to fix.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I also only used half of the DME early in a 3.5 gallon boil and added the rest a couple of mins before flame out. All in an attempt to achieve better hop utilization during the boil... Doesn't seem to have worked haha!

With a partial boil, adding the "top off" water at the end of the boil will dilute the IBUs (recipe software can account for this when estimating IBUs if it is configured properly). There is also an upper limit to the amount of IBUs (around 100?) that can be added to a volume of work (not sure if recipe software can be configured to account for this). So if your hops were estimated at more than 100 IBUs (in 3.5 gallons), you may have got only 50-60 IBUs due to dilution and the upper limit of IBUs.

The overall recipe may be a factor as well. The recipe looks like a classic IPA, so it's not going to have a lot of hop flavor / aroma (like a 'modern' APA / IPA or a NEIPA).

Hops at 60 / 30 / 5 is reasonable for a classic IPA. Nugget is a good bittering hop, Falconers at 30 would yield mostly bittering (maybe some flavor / aroma), Amarillo at 5 (with a quick cool-down) should retain some hop flavor / aroma.

The high amount of DME is going to result in sweeter beer (as you saw with the higher FG). Crystal 20 seems appropriate for a classic IPA. Some carapils in an all-grain classic IPA is not unreasonable - but, personally, I don't use it carapils in extract+steep recipes.

 

[madscientist451]

It is kegged. What do you suggest for saving it?

Let the pressure off the keg, let it get to room temp, open it up and add about a teaspoon of glucoamalyse:
https://www.homebrewing.org/FermFast-Glucoamylase-Enzyme_p_6324.html
Put the lid back on and add 1-2 PSI to seal the lid then leave the keg at ambient temp for about a week, maybe let the pressure off, a few times, maybe not, then hook up a draft line and pull a gravity sample. The Glucoamalyse enzyme will help any yeast left in the beer get active again, if not, add some more yeast. The idea is to chew through that residual sugar. Note that the beer will go all the way dry, but that's better than a beer that tastes like Pepsi. When its done, you could add some dry hops to the keg.

 

[dnr]

I've seen some people using repurposed Corny Kegs that haven't been cleaned properly. Any chance of this? Maybe it was a diet cola?
Just a possibility?

 

[Deadalus]

It seems like a lot of carapils, a whole pound? Maybe it was supposed to be a different Cara-something? Or you missed the divisor /4.

 

[THESULLI]

I finally figured out how to multi quote! Haha might sound lame but for some reason that always confused me... Let's give this a try...

How were those hops bought and packaged?
Wherefrom?
If sealed, were they opened before?

The hops were purchased from My LHBS. He stores all of his hops in a very large walk in freezer/fridge? All I know is that it is really cold in there. Perhaps I should inquire on my next trip. All hops are sealed in mylar bags. They were still sealed and never opened before they were used. I had them in my fridge and forgot about them for probably 6ish months. I can say that I usually shove my face into the hops after opening them. They all smelled, earthy? Certainly not fruity as was previously discussed in the thread.

Boil up some hops and add the hop tea to the keg. Calculate how many IBUs you want to add and boil them for an hour. You can also make late additions to boost hop flavor and aroma along with adding bitterness. You're lucky you kegged it because it will be pretty easy to fix.

My understanding was that hop tea was great for boosting flavor and aroma but not so much for bittering. Something about Isomerization for wort vs water? However what I just read suggests that when making a hop tea, it has more to do with the temperature of the water while steeping than it does with wort vs water. This is definitely a valuable lesson in how to move forward with a beer that did not turn out as expected. This seems like a pretty easy fix. Which means that this is most likely the direction I will take.

With a partial boil, adding the "top off" water at the end of the boil will dilute the IBUs (recipe software can account for this when estimating IBUs if it is configured properly). There is also an upper limit to the amount of IBUs (around 100?) that can be added to a volume of work (not sure if recipe software can be configured to account for this). So if your hops were estimated at more than 100 IBUs (in 3.5 gallons), you may have got only 50-60 IBUs due to dilution and the upper limit of IBUs.

The overall recipe may be a factor as well. The recipe looks like a classic IPA, so it's not going to have a lot of hop flavor / aroma (like a 'modern' APA / IPA or a NEIPA).

Hops at 60 / 30 / 5 is reasonable for a classic IPA. Nugget is a good bittering hop, Falconers at 30 would yield mostly bittering (maybe some flavor / aroma), Amarillo at 5 (with a quick cool-down) should retain some hop flavor / aroma.

The high amount of DME is going to result in sweeter beer (as you saw with the higher FG). Crystal 20 seems appropriate for a classic IPA. Some carapils in an all-grain classic IPA is not unreasonable - but, personally, I don't use it carapils in extract+steep recipes.

Your first thought makes perfect sense. However I have made a few batches using this same exact method which utilized less hops that retained wayyy more bittering, flavor, and aroma than this beer. As far as the recipe goes, the only change that was made compared to my usual process was DME vs LME. I agree with you and I am starting to think that this may be a major contributing factor.

Let the pressure off the keg, let it get to room temp, open it up and add about a teaspoon of glucoamalyse:
https://www.homebrewing.org/FermFast-Glucoamylase-Enzyme_p_6324.html
Put the lid back on and add 1-2 PSI to seal the lid then leave the keg at ambient temp for about a week, maybe let the pressure off, a few times, maybe not, then hook up a draft line and pull a gravity sample. The Glucoamalyse enzyme will help any yeast left in the beer get active again, if not, add some more yeast. The idea is to chew through that residual sugar. Note that the beer will go all the way dry, but that's better than a beer that tastes like Pepsi. When its done, you could add some dry hops to the keg.

This is a very interesting solution. The fact that it only fermented down to 1.018 means there are still unfermented sugars. I just assumed this was do to it being a much higher starting gravity than I usually get and just ran with it. Looking back, that may have been 1 of several culprits in my final outcome. The ability to get things moving again well after the fact seems like it would be very valuable.

I've seen some people using repurposed Corny Kegs that haven't been cleaned properly. Any chance of this? Maybe it was a diet cola?
Just a possibility?

I have heard this as well and I do have some used Corny kegs that were used to dispense soft drinks for many years, but the keg I used for this beer was brand spanking new. It got a wash, pbw soak, a series of rinses, then a starsan wash before anything was transferred into it. I would fully expect this in my old kegs that I have not personally used yet, but not so much in a brand new keg.

 

[THESULLI]

It seems like a lot of carapils, a whole pound? Maybe it was supposed to be a different Cara-something? Or you missed the divisor /4.

The recipe called for 1lb and the bag they came in specifically stated 1lb of carapils... I have no idea though. The ins and outs of each type of grain is something I am currently learning as previously I would just combine what I was given and make beer without much thought to how/why to use certain ingredients. I am starting to pick it all up though. I will get there slowly but surely. Every beer I make, I learn 10 new things and level up as a brewer.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Haha I'm still getting the hang of quoting multiple posts.

You mentioned pitching a fresh yeast and an old yeast, did you rehydrate it first? This is kind of a big beer. Also, did you oxygenate the wort? Could be that lazy yeast AND bogus hops conspired to ruin your pepsi, erm, beer.

 

[dnr]

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[thehaze]

Old hops can turn cheesy and would lose a lot of their bittering and aroma/flavour. So if you don't know how old they are... Also, you said nothing about water and how did you treat it. Soft water will make a beer taste and feeel bland. But I am more intrigued about why would you expect a lot of aroma and flavour with only 6 oz for 5 gallons? In a 8% beer, with no dry hopping... The only hops that would add something would be the 5 minutes addition. The fact that you cannot taste bittering, it can be tied to so many things, but it's obvious whatever hops you used, were not fresh.

I've used 3 years old hops that packed a punch, but came from a shop, that always flushes hops with nitrogen, they state AA, crop year, etc. etc. Normally I buy the latest crop, just to make sure. But leaving freshness aside, I think your expectations are high. I would never ever expect hop character from a beer that used 6 oz ( that's like 160 gr ) of hops, of which 2/3rds were added early in the boil. I use more for stouts. Simple non dry hopped Bitters/Pale Ales get 10-12 oz ( 2019 crop ) in the kettle, with 80-85% of these in the whirlpool.

You could dry hop in the keg, if you are not afraid of clogging.

 

[THESULLI]

Haha I'm still getting the hang of quoting multiple posts.

You mentioned pitching a fresh yeast and an old yeast, did you rehydrate it first? This is kind of a big beer. Also, did you oxygenate the wort? Could be that lazy yeast AND bogus hops conspired to ruin your pepsi, erm, beer.

I did not rehydrate. My research on this lead me to believe that it isn't entirely necessary. The jury is still out on this one though. It seems like some swear by it and others find it a waste of time. The only way to get to the bottom of it is for me to experiment both ways myself and go from there. If I use dry yeast in my next batch, I will rehydrate it.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Thanks! Will do. At the very least, I have a good cooking beer haha!

 

[dnr]

Try using it as a base for a soup/chili/roast in a crockpot! Beer and hot peppers are my thing.

I'll be growing hops and Trinidad Scorpions.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I did not rehydrate. My research on this lead me to believe that it isn't entirely necessary. The jury is still out on this one though. It seems like some swear by it and others find it a waste of time. The only way to get to the bottom of it is for me to experiment both ways myself and go from there. If I use dry yeast in my next batch, I will rehydrate it.

The bigger the beer, the more critical it is to pitch a sufficient quantity of active, healthy yeast. Rehydrating dry yeast allows the cells to plump back up and prepares them to endure the osmotic shock of being pitched into high gravity wort. Rehydrating takes 20 minutes tops and costs nothing, why risk all the work, money and time you invest in brewing a batch?

 

[THESULLI]

Old hops can turn cheesy and would lose a lot of their bittering and aroma/flavour. So if you don't know how old they are... Also, you said nothing about water and how did you treat it. Soft water will make a beer taste and feeel bland. But I am more intrigued about why would you expect a lot of aroma and flavour with only 6 oz for 5 gallons? In a 8% beer, with no dry hopping... The only hops that would add something would be the 5 minutes addition. The fact that you cannot taste bittering, it can be tied to so many things, but it's obvious whatever hops you used, were not fresh.

I've used 3 years old hops that packed a punch, but came from a shop, that always flushes hops with nitrogen, they state AA, crop year, etc. etc. Normally I buy the latest crop, just to make sure. But leaving freshness aside, I think your expectations are high. I would never ever expect hop character from a beer that used 6 oz ( that's like 160 gr ) of hops, of which 2/3rds were added early in the boil. I use more for stouts. Simple non dry hopped Bitters/Pale Ales get 10-12 oz ( 2019 crop ) in the kettle, with 80-85% of these in the whirlpool.

You could dry hop in the keg, if you are not afraid of clogging.

I have not yet dipped my toes into the water chemistry pool... I have always used filtered water from the fridge and it has made awesome beers in the past. As far as me expecting too much out of this beer, maybe I am... But at the very least I would expect something out of 6 oz no matter how small of a contribution it made considering the fact that I have made several beers with less hops and way more bitterness and flavor. What I have, as far as I can tell, is absolutely nothing where hops are concerned. It punches me in the teeth with how sweet it is. Again, maybe I am expecting too much... I am just the new guy after all. But I would still expect something noticeable. No matter how small.

 

[THESULLI]

Try using it as a base for a soup/chili/roast in a crockpot! Beer and hot peppers are my thing.

I'll be growing hops and Trinidad Scorpions.

I need to go eat something now. That instantly made me hungry... The girlfriend mad an awesome marinade with it the other day. I have never done Trinidad Scorpians but we did do Ghost peppers last year. Not as hot but still a punch to the face. This years garden will be more focused on usable high production vs 1 or 2 plants that are fun to grow but hurt my insides when I eat them haha.

The bigger the beer, the more critical it is to pitch a sufficient quantity of active, healthy yeast. Rehydrating dry yeast allows the cells to plump back up and prepares them to endure the osmotic shock of being pitched into high gravity wort. Rehydrating takes 20 minutes tops and costs nothing, why risk all the work, money and time you invest in brewing a batch?

That was my understanding. I came across a youtube video a month or so back that did an experiment on this. The guy is apparently a scientist and busted of some equipment to measure yeast viability for ryhydrated vs dry. He came to conclude that it was not necessary. Which is why I decided against it. It seems like wayyy more people think it is the way to go though. So I will give it a shot and see how it goes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's be careful with 'water chemistry' - this is an extract+steep recipe.

I have not yet dipped my toes into the water chemistry pool... I have always used filtered water from the fridge and it has made awesome beers in the past.

With extract+steep recipes, there are two parts: 1) good source water, and 2) 'season to taste' with small amounts of CaCl or CaS)4. More information in "How to Brew" (4e) chapters 1 and 8.

Good source water: RO, distilled, or low in minerals; treat to remove water treatment plant chemicals.

'Season to taste': malty beer? add a small amount of CaCl; hoppy beer? add a small amount of CaSO4. Starting out, use 1/4 gram per gallon for 'small amount'.

Assume that the mineral composition of the DME/LME is different based on the brand.

 

[TheMadKing]

Sorry I should clarify... By no flavor, I mean literally nothing. No bittering, no aroma, no flavor. It's as if I didn't use hops at all.

So in a big sweet beer, bitterness is harder to pick out and with that recipe, you're not going to get much hop flavor at all, just bitterness.

I suspect that this is just too little bitterness in too much sugar to really have it pop.

If your hops were oxidized that would make the problem worse. And if you got oxygen in the beer on the cold side that will also make it worse. So this might just be a combination of issues working together

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Which is why I decided against it. It seems like wayyy more people think it is the way to go though. So I will give it a shot and see how it goes.

Definitely give rehydration a try. It's always good to be willing to experiment.

Just don't assume that the number of people writing strongly in favor of something is an indicator of how many people actually do it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@THESULLI : I see you're going all grain shortly.

This might sound weird but... I stopped [brewing with extract] tomorrow. That is when my Brewzilla v3.1 arrives!

 

[Deadalus]

Your attenuation was 77.5%. When I looked up that yeast, SafAle US-05, the attenuation is supposed to be 78-82%. Call it 80% and you may have missed dropping 2 points, on the high end (82%) ~4. Any idea of the temperature while fermenting and how long it went before you kegged it?

Nugget hops 12.5-14.5% AA ; Falconers 9.5 -12% AA. If fresh, you would have gotten a good amount of bitterness from these. I ran just some average numbers for you in the hop age tool of Beersmith3. You said refrigerator so I set the temp in the tool for 40F, and guessed maybe these were 2018 hops because you did have an issue, so I put 18 months. The AA dropped about 3% for both and based on the new AA values you lost about 30 IBUs. So perhaps a little bit of sweetness and a loss of bitterness. Then a five minute addition, depending on how you chilled it, you might have lost the aroma there. Sometimes I am a little slow getting my plate chiller ready and those extra minutes do count. Hops are sitting in near boiling wort.

Also it was a kit right? I'm not saying this happened but if the LHBS assembles it they might be putting that together to sell some things that might not sell well on their own...

So if you don't fix it and run out of ideas of what to do with it, beer kills slugs. Put a couple of bowls out in your garden if you have one, the slugs are starting to come out.

 

[jrgtr42]

This is an odd one - allother things notwithstanding, coming down from 1.080 to 1.018 is pretty good attenuations (I don't have my seat of the pants with me ,so I can't do that math...)
Edit: Deadalus did that math - with extract, that's a pretty good result - I've always ended up with less attenuation with extract than all-grain.
Certainly 2 oz of nugget at 60 should have gotten you bitterness, and 2 of Amarillo at 5 should have gotten at least some aroma. It's that 30 minute that throws me - Personally, I would move that to 10, or that to 5 and the4 Amarillo to flame out next time - 30 is sort of a no-mans land where a lot of flavor and aroma are blown off, and bitterness isn't as developed (so I've read...)
Silly question - you've tried this several times, no? Have you had anyting to drink before?
Also, what is the aroma of the beer? Is there anything there or is there something - Amarillo gives a citrus / piney aroma,IIRC.

 

[VikeMan]

Your attenuation was 77.5%. When I looked up that yeast, SafAle US-05, the attenuation is supposed to be 78-82%. Call it 80% and you may have missed dropping 2 points, on the high end (82%) ~4.

Published yeast attenuation ranges are fairly useless, IMO. The fermentability of the wort is important, sometimes more important, than the yeast strain.