5L flask broke during boil

[Jtvann]

Just as soon as my starter comes to a boil, the entire bottom cracks and falls out of my flask, spilling 3 liters of starter wort.

Aside from the level of suck that come with that, I was planning on brewing a 10 gallon octoberfest next weekend. I had planned a step up starter from 3L then another 4L. Obviously that plan is shot.

I do have 2 smaller 2L flasks. Is it even feasible to do 3 or more stepped up starters 2L at a time?

 

[CodeSection]

Bummer about the flask breaking. Hopefully, you were not boiling the flask directly on a burner and were able to contain the starter. I boil my 5L flask sitting in a very large pot for this very reason.

I would use your 2Ls and do step ups. However, I would strongly recommend you use a defoamer to avoid eruptions. I stopped using Fermcap-S due to the silicone in it and the FDA recommendation that it be filtered out. Instead, I use Patco 376 which is a non-silicone defoamer.

 

[kh54s10]

You certainly can do a step starter in a 2 liter flask. That is all I have and I do stepped starters frequently. You might not even need as much size as you indicate.

I use this: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

If you use a flask on an electric, burner the coil kind, you get uneven heating and the risk of what happened. I boil in a pot. No need for foam control if you watch. Cool by putting the pot in the freezer. Then pour into a sanitized flask for the stirplate.

 

[Jag75]

I was always ify about boiling in the flask even though it says you can. I eventually went to canned starter. Wont go back to boiling DME.

 

[kh54s10]

I was always ify about boiling in the flask even though it says you can. I eventually went to canned starter. Wont go back to boiling DME.

That reminds me. Now that I have my pressure canner out of storage I should make up a batch of starters. I have quart and pint mason jars. Just need to make some time to do the mash and canning.

 

[Jtvann]

Never tried canned starters or done a cost comparison.

Was pretty pissed when I had to snatch my 3 year old daughter up off the floor when boiling wort came splashing down. Lucky she didn't get in any of it.

 

[bracconiere]

could order a new flask with next day shipping.....

 

[Jtvann]

You certainly can do a step starter in a 2 liter flask. That is all I have and I do stepped starters frequently. You might not even need as much size as you indicate.

I use this: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

If you use a flask on an electric, burner the coil kind, you get uneven heating and the risk of what happened. I boil in a pot. No need for foam control if you watch. Cool by putting the pot in the freezer. Then pour into a sanitized flask for the stirplate.

Given my yeast viability, batch size, and being a lager ... it does look like I'll need to do 4 steps.

 

[Jag75]

Never tried canned starters or done a cost comparison.

Was pretty pissed when I had to snatch my 3 year old daughter up off the floor when boiling wort came splashing down. Lucky she didn't get in any of it.

They work great . They are 3 dollars a can I believe . 12 and change for a 4 pack. Glad your little one didnt get burned

 

[Jtvann]

Canned starter is about 3 dollars per liter and dme is about 1 dollar per liter.

Pressure cooker might be a good thing to look into. I'd considered pre made starters a while back but just never did it.

 

[kevink]

Just curious. What kind of burner was the flask on?

 

[Brooothru]

You certainly can do a step starter in a 2 liter flask. That is all I have and I do stepped starters frequently. You might not even need as much size as you indicate.

I use this: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

If you use a flask on an electric, burner the coil kind, you get uneven heating and the risk of what happened. I boil in a pot. No need for foam control if you watch. Cool by putting the pot in the freezer. Then pour into a sanitized flask for the stirplate.

There are also a lot of "academic grade" vessels out there on the web. For heavy-duty heating and cooling you really should have a "laboratory grade" vessel. They can easily cost 2X as much, but they aren't likely to crack and leave a sticky mess on your wife's stove either. If it costs half as much as the other guy's Erlenmeyer flask, you can bet that it has some tiny flaws that will come back to bite you if you use the flask on anything more robust than a simple stir plate. I went the cheap route on my 5L flask, but I only use it for room-temperature processes. Everything else is lab grade Pyrex-type equipment.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

Canned starter is about 3 dollars per liter and dme is about 1 dollar per liter.

Pressure cooker might be a good thing to look into. I'd considered pre made starters a while back but just never did it.

That's what I do. Once a year I do a dozen 1 quart Mason jars of home made starter. 3# bag of extra light DME and 3 gals. water, boiled, then poured hot into sanitized jars. The jars go into a pressure cooker set to 2 bar (~15 psi) where it achieves >250F to kill any botulism spores. Allow the jars to cool and seal. Voila! A case of 1.030-1.040 starter wort that lasts for 12 brew sessions, shelf stable for at least a year or two. If I need more or run out, there's always the LHBS for a can of the store-bought variety.

Brooo Brother

 

[yourlastchance89]

How long have you had it? I routinely use my lower quality Chinese 5L on an induction stovetop. I always slowly and gradually raise the heat to max. That's always been a big fear of mine.

 

[Pkrd]

You don't really need a flask for a starter (though it does make my family think I'm doing science which adds legitimacy to this degenerate hobby). Just use a pot.

 

[Brooothru]

How long have you had it? I routinely use my lower quality Chinese 5L on an induction stovetop. I always slowly and gradually raise the heat to max. That's always been a big fear of mine.

My fear has always been using a conductive mat on an induction surface. Not all of the heat gets directed upward to the flask (or non-conductive pot or pan). That which radiates downward (onto the induction stove top) can/will overheat the induction surface and damage it. Replacement cost is astronomical. SWMBO would not be amused. Sleeping on the couch is not comfortable.

Sudden heating or cooling is what causes a less expensive piece of equipment to fail, but they can/will fail even if the increase or decrease in temperature is gradual. It all depends on the internal flaws in the cheaper product. Often the flaws can be seen as small bubbles or visually distorted internal ripples in the glass. Some are nearly invisible. Any can cause instant and catastrophic failure. You get what you pay for.

Caveat emptor.

Brooo Brother

 

[Jtvann]

Just curious. What kind of burner was the flask on?

My flask was bought from morebeer.com. it was a student grade 40 dollar flask. I was using it on top of my electric spiral element stove top similar to one that someone mentioned above.

I've been making starters that way for years and never had a problem. I guess everybody says the same thing .... until they do have a problem. Could very well fit along with one of those carboy horror stories. Anytime you're using glass, you're risking an accident

 

[Jtvann]

My fear has always been using a conductive mat on an induction surface. Not all of the heat gets directed upward to the flask (or non-conductive pot or pan). That which radiates downward (onto the induction stove top) can/will overheat the induction surface and damage it. Replacement cost is astronomical. SWMBO would not be amused. Sleeping on the couch is not comfortable.

Sudden heating or cooling is what causes a less expensive piece of equipment to fail, but they can/will fail even if the increase or decrease in temperature is gradual. It all depends on the internal flaws in the cheaper product. Often the flaws can be seen as small bubbles or visually distorted internal ripples in the glass. Some are nearly invisible. Any can cause instant and catastrophic failure. You get what you pay for.

Caveat emptor.

Brooo Brother

I absolutely had a cheaper grade flask. There were a few visable bubbles. I knew it could be a possibility, but honestly I've taken the same flask from boiling to ice water dozens of times without issue. After stressing it as much as I did, I wouldn't have figured a simple boil would kill it.

 

[Robert65]

I've got one of those $40 5L jobs from MoreBeer, or maybe it was NB, don't recall. Goes from gas range (not isolated in any way) to ice bath no problem. But I've read a couple of online reviews from people who've had those fail the first time. Guess if it doesn't fail first time out, it's good. Until it's not. That's life.

As to the question of doing 2L steps: Assuming you're starting with a standard White Labs or Wyeast pack, I'd limit it to 2 steps. You'll reach a point of diminishing returns. The first one you'll probably easily double cell count. The second you won't. After that, you're just waking it up (and not even giving it breakfast.) But you'll probably have enough pitching yeast if it's active and healthy at pitching and you oxygenate well. Maybe a longer lag than planned, but no long term harm.

Those calculators are all horribly pessimistic. Ignore them and develop your own empirical protocols.

 

[Brooothru]

My flask was bought from morebeer.com. it was a student grade 40 dollar flask. I was using it on top of my electric spiral element stove top similar to one that someone mentioned above.

I've been making starters that way for years and never had a problem. I guess everybody says the same thing .... until they do have a problem. Could very well fit along with one of those carboy horror stories. Anytime you're using glass, you're risking an accident

All true. I used to drive a 1961 Ford Fairlane with weak brakes and worn shocks and never killed myself in a wreck. Doesn't mean it was a safe car. Conversely, I now own 2 late model Volvos and a Mercedes-based recreational vehicle with all the bells, whistles and safety features. Doesn't mean I won't die behind the wheel tomorrow driving one of them. The difference is the risks involved in driving an old beat up car are obvious, whereas the potential for instantaneous and catastrophic failure of a cheap piece of lab equipment which (by its very designation: "student grade") can be assumed to have internal structural weakness which may or may not be visible, carries its own set of risks.

I shattered a 6.5 gal glass carboy full of fermenting wine once after never having had one break in over twenty years (at the time) of wine making. I now use stainless steel fermentors. I've never burst an Erlenmeyer flask on a stove top, but after learning about the different grades of products and after closely examining my 5L/$40 knock-off and discovering two minor flaws, I never again subjected it to heat stresses. It is great for making those huge yeast starters on the stir plate however.

Brooo Brother

 

[kh54s10]

Even the lab grade flasks are subject to cycling. Every time you heat it up and cool, it is stressed a little more. The lab grade will accept more of these cycles, but is not immune to the effect.

The safest procedure is to eliminate the cycling. Therefore I boil and cool in a pot, then pour the starter into the flash for use on my stirplate.

Plus that eliminates the risk of creating a starter volcano!!!

 

[Spartan1979]

I had a cheap 4L flask that broke the first time I used it. I bought a Pyrex flask after that and I've had no issues. I'm sticking to Pyrex or Kimax from now on.

 

[AkTom]

I avoid starters altogether. I don’t like lagers either.
I said it, and I’m glad...
Jest jest, about the staters. I still don’t like lagers
Brew on and cheers

 

[Robert65]

Even the lab grade flasks are subject to cycling. Every time you heat it up and cool, it is stressed a little more. The lab grade will accept more of these cycles, but is not immune to the effect.

The safest procedure is to eliminate the cycling. Therefore I boil and cool in a pot, then pour the starter into the flash for use on my stirplate.

Plus that eliminates the risk of creating a starter volcano!!!

I switched to boiling in the flask (stir bar and all) with the idea it was improved sanitation. (Fermcap-S handles the volcano issue.) With this thought of cycling in mind, I think I might go back to boiling and chilling in the pot. After all, the stirring is going to draw in the same air that I'm avoiding initial exposure to by having a "closed" boil and chill system. Maybe I hadn't thought this all the way through. [emoji848]

 

[Jtvann]

Doing my 2L starter right now. Got another 5L on the way from Amazon, another el cheapo. Also ordered a pressure pot. Going to go the route of premade starters and not stress the flask with heating or cooling anymore.

 

[Vale71]

For premade starters you really need an autoclave as a pressure pot doesn't reach high enough of a temperature. Autoclaves, even small ones, are horrendously expensive.

 

[Brooothru]

For premade starters you really need an autoclave as a pressure pot doesn't reach high enough of a temperature. Autoclaves, even small ones, are horrendously expensive.

Not sure I agree. My 'everyday' pressure cooker is capable of 2 bar pressure. Water boils at 249.5F @ 2 bar. Botulism spores are denatured at 249.8F for 3 mins. I pressure cook for :10 mins, plus the ~20-30 mins the pot needs to sit while the pressure bleeds off.

What other nasties should we be concerned with that survive those conditions?

Brooo Brother

 

[Cavpilot2000]

If you run out of time for starters, just buy five packs of yeast, put them all together, and hit them with a pint of vitality starter first thing on brew day. By the time pitch rolls around, you should have an adequate supply of active yeast.

 

[Jtvann]

If you run out of time for starters, just buy five packs of yeast, put them all together, and hit them with a pint of vitality starter first thing on brew day. By the time pitch rolls around, you should have an adequate supply of active yeast.

Would be nice to not spend 40 dollars on yeast for a single batch of beer. I dont run a brewey just yet

 

[Robert65]

Would be nice to not spend 40 dollars on yeast for a single batch of beer. I dont run a brewey just yet

Repitch 5 times and you've made back all your money, and the yeast is only just getting going, adapting to your actual brewery conditions and making better beer.

 

[Jtvann]

Repitch 5 times and you've made back all your money, and the yeast is only just getting going, adapting to your actual brewery conditions and making better beer.

Or repitch 5 times using a single packet and feel like you've saved money. I feel like this thread is derailing. We all know that it's possible to buy a bunch of small packs of yeast without a starter. Because money is a thing for some people, that's a non-starter ... pun intended.

 

[chumpsteak]

You don't have to actually boil in the flask. Bring temp up over 180 then shut the burner off and let it sit for 15 min before cooling. Boiling isn't really sanitizing any better than 180. To truly sanitize you'd need to pressure cook or autoclave anyway.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Or repitch 5 times using a single packet and feel like you've saved money. I feel like this thread is derailing. We all know that it's possible to buy a bunch of small packs of yeast without a starter. Because money is a thing for some people, that's a non-starter ... pun intended.

I don't think it's derailing - I offered up the idea because your concern was whether you had time to build up the size of starter you want, which I don't think you do, if you want to do it right (build up, crash, decant, build up again, crash, decant).

That leaves you with four options as I see it:
1: underpitch (I would not recommend it for a lager you are putting so much work and resources into)

2: hasty starter buildup without decanting properly (up to you, but like underpitching, I'd prefer not to take potentially flavor-affecting shortcuts like pitching spent starter wort into a beer I've put so much time and resources into)

3: Push back brew day to another weekend

4: Buy enough yeast to make up for that which you don't have time to cultivate. The cost can be offset by careful harvesting and reuse of that yeast for other batches. I did exactly that a few months ago, buying 5 packs of one yeast and pitched it. I have harvested and re-used that yeast on four subsequent batches and plan to do more with it, so I will end up using less than one bought pack per batch, depending how long I can keep the culture going.

Obviously it's your call - we all have to make tradeoffs in our brewing process based on our priorities and available resources.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I boil starter water in a pot, stick the pot in the sink, add DME and nutes, lid the pot for a couple of minutes, then commence cooling. Once the wort hits pitch temperature I pour it in an e-flask, add the yeast, blast it with straight O2, then put it on the stir plate.
Never have had an evident infection...or a broken e-flask...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

fwiw, I boil starter water in a pot, stick the pot in the sink, add DME and nutes, lid the pot for a couple of minutes, then commence cooling. Once the wort hits pitch temperature I pour it in an e-flask, add the yeast, blast it with straight O2, then put it on the stir plate.
Never have had an evident infection...or a broken e-flask...

Cheers!

Very similar to what I do, including the O2 dosing.
A stainless (or aluminum) pot conducts heat way better than glass, it's made for cooking/boiling/handling and can't crack.

My variation on this is boiling the starter wort in a (stainless) pot, put on a clean (usually Starsanned) lid. The steam and retained heat will pasteurize the lid and rim area during the first few minutes. Place in the sink with cold water. Refresh the water and, if needed, again. Add a few ice packs to the last change of sink water to get it down the last 30-50°.

Note:
I typically prepare enough starter wort for 2 (or 3) starters. It takes a good hour to chill that volume down, so I plan ahead accordingly.

 

[IslandLizard]

Also ordered a pressure pot. Going to go the route of premade starters and not stress the flask with heating or cooling anymore.

There are a few threads/posts where brewers pressure-canned their starter wort, but a dark precipitate formed inside the jars.

Yeah, it may save some money to mash then boil 3-5 gallons of regular or double gravity starter wort, tack it on to a brew day, then pressure can that for later use. I've been thinking about it. But altogether it's a lot of work...

I'm fortunate getting DME at a little over $2 a pound at our group grain buy, I buy 20 to 30 pounds at a time and be set for a couple years. That's less than a dollar per 2 liter starter. I make around 20-30 of such starters a year, including step starters reviving older yeast.

Right now I have 4 half-gallon pickle jars and 2 2-liter flasks with crashed yeast in my fridge. Each are 1.5 liter starters (the max volume I can use on my shakers).

I've built up pitchable lager starters for 5 gallons in 2 rounds in less than 2 weeks. 1 WLP sleeve in 1.5-liters (typically 3-4 months old), crashed, decanted, then split slurry over 3 1.5-liters again, crash, decant and pitch as is, or make a vitality starter on brew day. Crashing 1.5 liter lager starters takes 4-5 days. Your 5 liters may take an extra day or two.

Has your 5 gallon flask arrived?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I've been making starters that way for years and never had a problem. I guess everybody says the same thing .... until they do have a problem. Could very well fit along with one of those carboy horror stories. Anytime you're using glass, you're risking an accident

Hmmm...I might be in the same boat. I have a 1L flask that I have used for many years both on an electric stove and now on my gas stove. No problems yet...but. I am not sure where I got it, but I know it was cheap (BOMEX, Made in China, volume marks are not very accurate). I have been thinking about a bigger one, but maybe I should look at boiling in a pot, chill, then moving to a 1 gal glass jug.

I am not a lager guy, I try to avoid starters by overpitching harvested yeast, and in general I am not a "4L starter" guy as I guess my practice has been more of a "vitality starter" (pitch a pack of liquid yeast into ~600ml of starter the day before I brew, then pitch the entire starter into a 5 gal batch).

 

[Robert65]

@IslandLizard, FWIW I always do 2-step lager propagations in under a week. 24 hours on the stir plate, crash 48 hours, repeat.

 

[brewswithshoes]

Not to derail further, but NorthernBrewer typically has some 15% off deal going. Case of fast pitch for about $50. equals about 2 bucks a can. way less hassle than DME starters & now that they aren't owned by Evil Corp you can buy from them with a clear conscious.

EDIT: Actually a 15% deal going now that works for it. BREW15

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/fast-pitch-grand-slam

 

[Dog House Brew]

My flask was bought from morebeer.com. it was a student grade 40 dollar flask. I was using it on top of my electric spiral element stove top similar to one that someone mentioned above.

I've been making starters that way for years and never had a problem. I guess everybody says the same thing .... until they do have a problem. Could very well fit along with one of those carboy horror stories. Anytime you're using glass, you're risking an accident

Just curious if you were using a Trivet on your element, or was your flask directly on the element? I've boiled in my 5L flask using my electric stove, but read a trivet has to be used. I bent a filler TIG rod in a zigzag pattern put that on the burner. I'm thinking that a wire coat-hanger would work. I guess that separation is all you need. I know that the direct heat from an electric stove element can cause failure. I wish I had a gas stove, evidently the direct flame is easier on the glass. Makes me think I'll go back to the pot and pour method.