5000W BoilCoil 20 won't go past 209!

[ZmannR2]

OK since I've hijacked someone else's thread I'll just start my own.

I'm beyond frustrated now as I have seemingly done everything correct.

Equipment:

20 gal SS Brewtech Kettle
High Gravity Controller w/ EZBoil PID (dspr120) and Auber 40a SSR (srda40)
Blichmann BoilCoil 20 5000W
Power: 2-leg 240 VAC with ground wire
Plug: 3 prong 240 VAC NEMA 10-30
Breaker: 30a GFCI running both hot legs w/no nuetral load, bare ground landed in main breaker panel on house, no other load is on this circuit
10ga wire ran all the way to the plug I mounted on the wall

OK!!!! So, firing this baby up in 7 gals of water as a test works great all the way up until a temp of 209/210 is reached, at which it stops rising and stays at a baby boil. Just a few bubbles coming off the element. I'm at sea level so I need the full 212 to reach a good rolling boil. I get to 209 quickly enough and mashing works great! But what is going on???

I set the bAST function to zero on the PID, and the SSR led is a SOLID red when in 100% so it's not a PID issue.

I have a full 240 (236ish) across both legs on the plug.

Only thing I can try is maybe plugging it directly into the wall, but that's going to require cutting wires.

I may upgrade the wiring within the Highgravity controller as they do seem a little small for what I'm pushing. Could those be introducing impedence in the circuit?

I'm at my wits end here. Dave from High Gravity says clean water won't boil real vigorously, but Blichmann says that coil should be DESTROYING that water

 

[passedpawn]

5000W element, 7 g water, 100% duty cycle? The water should be leaping out of that pot.

You might put a volt meter across the element while it's running to make sure you're actually getting 240, and not 120, to that element.

I'm not familiar with that controller, but are you sure it's on a manual mode rather than the temperature-feeback PID mode?

 

[ZmannR2]

OK I'll try that.....I can't get to the actual element due to Blichmann's plug design.....I can take a reading at the controller box

The plug does have 240 when I have it on and it's unplugged from the element though

Ya I went thru every possible setting on that PID.....even tried setting mash temperature to 300 degrees so the SSR stays fully engaged and still doesn't go past 209

 

[passedpawn]

The plug does have 240 when I have it on and it's unplugged from the element though

Yea, then it's probably 240 when on. Clamp-on current meters are pretty nifty too. Good too to have for troubleshooting like this. If you know the voltage and the current, you know the wattage. Wattage is the ultimate thing we are looking for, and translates directly to boil strength.

 

[ZmannR2]

I have a clamp on. I'll find the current if I an squeeze it in there

 

[ZmannR2]

Ok I have roughly 20 amps on each leg. I also bypassed the controller and connected directly to the 240 plug and it's still only doing a baby gentle boil. I'm beginning to think these Blichmann coils with their super ultra low watt density is the problem. It just refuses to give me a rolling boil.

Even though Blichmann themselves are telling me it should give a good strong boil at 100%

 

[passedpawn]

Ok I have roughly 20 amps on each leg. I also bypassed the controller and connected directly to the 240 plug and it's still only doing a baby gentle boil. I'm beginning to think these Blichmann coils with their super ultra low watt density is the problem. It just refuses to give me a rolling boil.

Even though Blichmann themselves are telling me it should give a good strong boil at 100%

That's 4800W. I've got no explanation for you then.

 

[wyowolf]

Hmmm just a thought, on my BCS controller I put a light to tell me when the coil is firing, at 60% it will hold a nice boil, i can see the light going on and off every couple seconds, and also when its on 100%. It seems as though its not on 100% for whatever reason...

ok nevermind, i see you went straight from wall to coil... and still only get 209?? bad coil?? maybe there is a resistance measurement they can give you to get you in the ballpark...

at 100% i would boil the hell out of 7 gal with same wattage...

 

[ZmannR2]

Wow! Well in taking everything apart and sticking clamp meters and voltmeters in all parts of the circuitry, it somehow fixed itself. I now reach 212 with a nice rolling boil.

Man wtf??? Oh well maybe there was some loose wiring in there. I'll just pray it stays good. Thanks for all the advice!!

 

[passedpawn]

Wow! Well in taking everything apart and sticking clamp meters and voltmeters in all parts of the circuitry, it somehow fixed itself. I now reach 212 with a nice rolling boil.

Man wtf??? Oh well maybe there was some loose wiring in there. I'll just pray it stays good. Thanks for all the advice!!

If you're crimping ring terminals on wires, be careful. I've had a bad crimp burn up with that kind of current before. I'd suggest soldering those crimps.

 

[processhead]

Agree. Loose connections, and any high resistance in the circuit, will drop voltage with resulting loss of power delivered at the element. That power loss at the element can result as heat somewhere else in your panel or wiring, often with accompanying damage.

 

[ZmannR2]

I found the true problem!! I had my pot sitting directly on my stainless steel table and the table was acting like a heat sink for the pot! Once either the table itself got hot OR more effectively, I stuck a ceramic tile under the pot, BOOM!! Full boil!!

I think all my troubleshooting earlier while the pot was warm, made the entire table finally catch up to the pot, then the full boil started! Hahaha thermodynamics man! Crazy!

 

[processhead]

Glad it was something simple.
My electric kettles are all sanke kegs so they sit on the rim, not the base. Direct contact with a metal table is a scenario that would not have occurred to me unless maybe I was staring right at it.

 

[dthompson79]

I would still say you had a weak connection somewhere. I boil for 15 gallon batches 19-20 gallons preboil sitting on a stainless table with a single 5500 watt element at 70% duty cycle. Full rolling boil

 

[ba-brewer]

I was wonder how a loose connection would cause the temp to stop at 209, yet seem to work OK prior to that. The time required to get to 209 was not mentioned. If you had enough resistance in the loose connection to significantly reduce power I would think there should be signs of stress on the connector or wire.

Until the table thing I was thinking that maybe there could be a heat issue inside the controller.

I would dump the water and rerun the test to boil and do an extended boil test to make sure it continues to work properly.

 

[processhead]

Agree with ba-brewer.
Check this a couple more times to make sure you know what your dealing with.

 

[wyowolf]

I tend to agree, unless you are sitting on a dead flat aluminum table there is no way that the heat should be drawn away that fast.

I do sit my kettle on a piece of chip board, but even if I didnt I wouldnt expect to see much change, you should be putting in far more heat than would be lost by conductivity through the kettle...

 

[augiedoggy]

I would still say you had a weak connection somewhere. I boil for 15 gallon batches 19-20 gallons preboil sitting on a stainless table with a single 5500 watt element at 70% duty cycle. Full rolling boil

same here. only 11 gallon batches with 65-70%

but im not using a boil coil which is designed a bit different with the element more spaced out and the heat less concentrated within the wort which may make it a bit weaker.

 

[processhead]

I have a clamp on. I'll find the current if I an squeeze it in there

Get that clamp on meter and monitor your amp draw during the course of the testing.

If you ever see less than full load amps with the SSR requested on full-time, start looking for an intermittent connection, bad element, or bad SSR.

 

[stillshinen]

Anyone have a full rolling boil almost jumping out of the pot yet the temp read 209 and despite 100% duty it won't get hotter?

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

Anyone have a full rolling boil almost jumping out of the pot yet the temp read 209 and despite 100% duty it won't get hotter?

What is the elevation (sea level) of your brewing spot? Try https://www.whatismyelevation.com/ to figure that out.

Boiling Point of Water at Different Altitudes
Altitude ft. (meters) Boiling Point - Fahrenheit Boiling Point - Celsius
0 ft. (0 m.) 212 ºF 100 ºC
500 ft. (152 m.) 211 ºF 99.5 ºC
1000 ft (305 m.) 210 ºF 99 ºC
1500 ft. (457 m.) 209 ºF 98.5 ºC
2000 ft. (610 m.) 208 ºF 98 ºC
2500 ft. (762 m.) 207 ºF 97.5 ºC
3000 ft (914 m.) 206 ºF 97 ºC
3500 ft. (1067 m.) 205.5 ºF 96 ºC
4000 ft. (1219 m.) 204 ºF 95.5 ºC
4500 ft. (1372 m.) 203.5 ºF 95 ºC
5000 ft. (1524 m.) 202 ºF 94.5 ºC
5500 ft. (1676 m.) 201.5 ºF 94 ºC
6000 ft. (1829 m.) 200.5 ºF 93.5 ºC

 

[processhead]

Yeah, If your temp probe is out of calibration a couple of degrees or you are at a higher elevation than sea level, you could easily read that. Check it with known accurate thermometer sometime.

A boiling kettle with never get higher than 212 degrees no matter how much heat you dump into it. That's at sea-level. Could be a several degrees lower at higher elevations.

 

[Nmnbrewer]

Yup. 209 in Duluth mn is where my boil is at. I have my brew boss controller set at 62% once boil is reached. At 100% I'd lose 2 gal/hr.

 

[stillshinen]

I am at Singapore sea level. I have used a few thermometers and they are saying the same thing.

 

[ZmannR2]

I'm thinking the thermometer was inaccurate due to it being only an inch away from my element.....while it was probably 209 immediately surrouncing my boil coil, it was probably 200ish everywhere else trying to catch upthink I'll replace it with a longer probe that goes more towards the center of the pot

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm not sure about a boil coil but my PID has a setting where if your pid is reading high/low from a trusted calibrated thermometer you adjust the setting on the pid to reflect the correct temp....maybe that setting has been adjusted to read 209 when its really at least 212.

I'm not buying the table is your issue. My 5500W gets 16 gallons CRANKING. At 7 gallons there no way the table is sucking up that much heat.

 

[ZmannR2]

Here it is. Ya this was the problem. My
Original probe isn't touching the element but it's damn close! So now I grabbed a probe I bought a year ago I never used and it should fix the issue

 

[processhead]

If you are using the PID controller in manual mode, it shouldn't matter where the temperature probe is located. When boiling, the controller should be in manual mode and you should be requesting the output to 100% till the boil is rolling, then throttle back.

In manual mode, the controller does not use PV to control the output. Basically ignores the temperature probe until its switched back to auto mode.

 

[ZmannR2]

Replaced the probe....still stalls for a good while once it hits 208ish.....5 mins later it creeps up to 212 and gets the full boil

 

[ba-brewer]

how long does it take to go from ambient temp to 208?

 

[TexasWine]

If you are using the PID controller in manual mode, it shouldn't matter where the temperature probe is located. When boiling, the controller should be in manual mode and you should be requesting the output to 100% till the boil is rolling, then throttle back.

In manual mode, the controller does not use PV to control the output. Basically ignores the temperature probe until its switched back to auto mode.

This^^^^ The probe has no impact on the boil if you're in manual mode, which I thought you were because you had set bAST to zero. You could completely disconnect it and it shouldn't have any impact.

 

[WI_Wino]

This^^^^ The probe has no impact on the boil if you're in manual mode, which I thought you were because you had set bAST to zero. You could completely disconnect it and it shouldn't have any impact.

Pretty sure my mypin pid won't work if the temp sensor is disconnected, even in manual mode. Not sure if that's all pids though.

 

[ba-brewer]

My Ezboil cuts power if the temp transducer is disconnected in boil mode.

 

[TexasWine]

My Ezboil cuts power if the temp transducer is disconnected in boil mode.

Didn't know that, and I have an ez boil. I'll have to try it next brew day.

 

[passedpawn]

My auber PID works just fine in manual mode without a temp sensor. I use it this way all the time to clean my equipment.

Good discussion guys.

 

[ZmannR2]

how long does it take to go from ambient temp to 208?

VERY quickly....did a full brew this weekend boiling 13 gals for a 10 gal batch and it boiled well at 100% but not super hard or anything and never felt the urge to turn it down from 100% power....just a decent boil. My boil off rate is 1.5 gal/hr though so it's doing it's job

 

[ZmannR2]

Btw I cleaned those filthy coils after seeing those pics I posted....little bit of stainless mesh does wonders!!

 

[augiedoggy]

VERY quickly....did a full brew this weekend boiling 13 gals for a 10 gal batch and it boiled well at 100% but not super hard or anything and never felt the urge to turn it down from 100% power....just a decent boil. My boil off rate is 1.5 gal/hr though so it's doing it's job

I think people have different opinions on what a strong boil is... I had to turn my 12.5gallon boil down to 70% this last thursday... still got 1.5 gallons boil off in 90 min but if I put it at 100% the boil is so strong it splashing out of the kettle. 500w shouldnt make that big of a difference...
Hav you checked the resistance on your element to see what its really drawing?

 

[ZmannR2]

Ya 12 ohms which should draw 20 amps and it does

 

[ZmannR2]

However that equates to 4800 watts and not 5000. But 200W shouldn’t be making that much a diff